NEW POLL: Michigan v. Northwestern Forum

[traehekat]

Last one! My transfer cycle is complete: in at NU and Michigan, out at Chicago. Pretty happy with how it turned out, but now I have to make a decision and I hadn't really given a ton of thought to which school I would actually prefer between NU and Michigan.

I am from Chicago and that is where I want to work. Ideally I would like to clerk for 1-2 years before going into biglaw in Chicago. NU obviously is going to be great for Chicago biglaw, but I think Michigan is better in the clerkship department and overall probably has a more academic feel to it (which I would like) as opposed to NU's more practical, business approach. I know I can apply for journals at both schools, but without knowing how past transfer students have done with journals I'm not sure which I would have the better chance at. Michigan does have a solid reputation with Chicago firms and I have heard it can even be an advantage to be at Michigan because less students are aiming for Chicago as compared to NU, so it is less competitive. I could also save some money by living at home for a year or two if I go to NU, but I think I would actually have more fun at Michigan and may fit in with the student body a little bit better there.

What do you guys think? I am leaning toward NU, but Michigan has a certain allure to it mainly because I think it is probably a slightly better school academically, it is higher ranked, and I think if I wanted Chicago out of Michigan I'd have a good shot. Plus I have heard a lot more from Michigan transfer students and how successful they have been, whereas I really don't know much about how NU transfers fair.

[Nacirema]

Dude, you are going to be fine no matter where you go. Congrats!

I think this one is going to be based on your gut feeling.

[rayiner]

Northwestern. Northwestern's domination of the only two Chicago firms still hiring people (Sidley and Kirkland) over Michigan is not to be underestimated. Clerkships is probably a slight edge to Michigan, but not a decisive one.

[slt]

Northwestern. Northwestern's domination of the only two Chicago firms still hiring people (Sidley and Kirkland) over Michigan is not to be underestimated. Clerkships is probably a slight edge to Michigan, but not a decisive one.

Thanks for this information regarding Sidley and Kirkland, if it's true! I had no idea about those two firms being the only firms still hiring people.

[JOThompson]

Congrats, dude. I know you worked super hard this year and you deserve each of these acceptances. I don't think you can sabotage yourself at this point, but I voted Northwestern for the home market advantage.

[Bronte]

Northwestern. Northwestern's domination of the only two Chicago firms still hiring people (Sidley and Kirkland) over Michigan is not to be underestimated. Clerkships is probably a slight edge to Michigan, but not a decisive one.

Thanks for this information regarding Sidley and Kirkland, if it's true! I had no idea about those two firms being the only firms still hiring people.

He might be exaggerating just a little bit, but I don't generally know much about the Chicago market. I would take NU for Chicago, since Chicago is its primary market. However, as far as I know, Michigan continues to place a solid percentage of the class into Chicago.

[IAFG]

Definitely Michigan. I mean there's a reason it's MVP > DCNG, right? SIXIGAN all the way.

[rayiner]

Northwestern. Northwestern's domination of the only two Chicago firms still hiring people (Sidley and Kirkland) over Michigan is not to be underestimated. Clerkships is probably a slight edge to Michigan, but not a decisive one.

Thanks for this information regarding Sidley and Kirkland, if it's true! I had no idea about those two firms being the only firms still hiring people.

Somewhat tongue-in-cheek obviously, but not really. Chicago had 309 SA spots last year, and about 30% were at K&E or Sidley.

[traehekat]

Northwestern. Northwestern's domination of the only two Chicago firms still hiring people (Sidley and Kirkland) over Michigan is not to be underestimated. Clerkships is probably a slight edge to Michigan, but not a decisive one.

Now that you bring this up I suppose another factor in this decision may be how bad the Chicago market is right now. On one hand I could give myself the BEST shot at landing something in Chicago with NU, but on the other hand I could give myself at least a DECENT shot at Chicago with Michigan while also having access to NYC and other markets. If I strike out on Chicago I may be closed out of other markets at NU. I guess part of my issue is I don't know how NU transfers fair at OCI. Do you have any info on that? Also, do you know what NU's OCI is looking like this year? Is it primarily Chicago firms or are there are decent number of big NYC firms coming as well?

Congrats, dude. I know you worked super hard this year and you deserve each of these acceptances. I don't think you can sabotage yourself at this point, but I voted Northwestern for the home market advantage.

Thanks man, hope you get into UCLA!

[rayiner]

Northwestern. Northwestern's domination of the only two Chicago firms still hiring people (Sidley and Kirkland) over Michigan is not to be underestimated. Clerkships is probably a slight edge to Michigan, but not a decisive one.

Now that you bring this up I suppose another factor in this decision may be how bad the Chicago market is right now. On one hand I could give myself the BEST shot at landing something in Chicago with NU, but on the other hand I could give myself at least a DECENT shot at Chicago with Michigan while also having access to NYC and other markets. If I strike out on Chicago I may be closed out of other markets at NU. I guess part of my issue is I don't know how NU transfers fair at OCI. Do you have any info on that? Also, do you know what NU's OCI is looking like this year? Is it primarily Chicago firms or are there are decent number of big NYC firms coming as well?

Congrats, dude. I know you worked super hard this year and you deserve each of these acceptances. I don't think you can sabotage yourself at this point, but I voted Northwestern for the home market advantage.

Thanks man, hope you get into UCLA!

I don't know how transfers fare at NU OCI, but all the big NYC firms are coming with a couple of glaring exceptions (WLRK, of course, and Debevoise). I wouldn't say NU gives up anything to Michigan re: NYC placement. From the firms I know about, NU is as well-represented this summer at the NYC V10 as any of the T7-14 besides Penn.

[traehekat]

Northwestern. Northwestern's domination of the only two Chicago firms still hiring people (Sidley and Kirkland) over Michigan is not to be underestimated. Clerkships is probably a slight edge to Michigan, but not a decisive one.

Now that you bring this up I suppose another factor in this decision may be how bad the Chicago market is right now. On one hand I could give myself the BEST shot at landing something in Chicago with NU, but on the other hand I could give myself at least a DECENT shot at Chicago with Michigan while also having access to NYC and other markets. If I strike out on Chicago I may be closed out of other markets at NU. I guess part of my issue is I don't know how NU transfers fair at OCI. Do you have any info on that? Also, do you know what NU's OCI is looking like this year? Is it primarily Chicago firms or are there are decent number of big NYC firms coming as well?

Congrats, dude. I know you worked super hard this year and you deserve each of these acceptances. I don't think you can sabotage yourself at this point, but I voted Northwestern for the home market advantage.

Thanks man, hope you get into UCLA!

I don't know how transfers fare at NU OCI, but all the big NYC firms are coming with a couple of glaring exceptions (WLRK, of course, and Debevoise). I wouldn't say NU gives up anything to Michigan re: NYC placement. From the firms I know about, NU is as well-represented this summer at the NYC V10 as any of the T7-14 besides Penn.

Thanks, definitely didn't know that. Kind of frustrating to have to make these decisions without even being able to see what firms will be at OCI, as that is one of the biggest reasons for transferring.

[crazyblink653]

Northwestern. Northwestern's domination of the only two Chicago firms still hiring people (Sidley and Kirkland) over Michigan is not to be underestimated. Clerkships is probably a slight edge to Michigan, but not a decisive one.

Now that you bring this up I suppose another factor in this decision may be how bad the Chicago market is right now. On one hand I could give myself the BEST shot at landing something in Chicago with NU, but on the other hand I could give myself at least a DECENT shot at Chicago with Michigan while also having access to NYC and other markets. If I strike out on Chicago I may be closed out of other markets at NU. I guess part of my issue is I don't know how NU transfers fair at OCI. Do you have any info on that? Also, do you know what NU's OCI is looking like this year? Is it primarily Chicago firms or are there are decent number of big NYC firms coming as well?

Congrats, dude. I know you worked super hard this year and you deserve each of these acceptances. I don't think you can sabotage yourself at this point, but I voted Northwestern for the home market advantage.

Thanks man, hope you get into UCLA!

I don't know how transfers fare at NU OCI, but all the big NYC firms are coming with a couple of glaring exceptions (WLRK, of course, and Debevoise). I wouldn't say NU gives up anything to Michigan re: NYC placement. From the firms I know about, NU is as well-represented this summer at the NYC V10 as any of the T7-14 besides Penn.

Thanks, definitely didn't know that. Kind of frustrating to have to make these decisions without even being able to see what firms will be at OCI, as that is one of the biggest reasons for transferring.

I was also accepted to Michigan and am waiting to hear back from Penn before making my final decision. However, I did contact Michigan's OCP office shortly after admission, inquiring about the firms coming to OCI and they sent me this link:

http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... forweb.pdf

she said that most, if not all, of the firms on there will be coming again to OCI this year. hope that helps as far as considering Michigan goes.

[cojonelso]

First off, Congrats! Both are excellent schools, obviously. You'll have to represent your old school well . You can't go wrong with this decision, but I would choose Michigan because: you will have enough biglaw opportunities coming from there, it is generally regarded as a better school, you will have more clerkship opportunities, and will get that solid academic community. Not hating on NU at all, because it's a great school, but the impression I get when I look at Michigan is that Michigan is more of a respected learning community. Those neo-gothic buildings really would be neat to study at for the next two years. That said, NU's campus is pretty awesome as well, and if you're wanting to stay in Chicago, there's something to be said for a good school that's in the city. Two good options, but my vote is for Michigan.

Also, JOT, you'll have to let me know when you hear back from UCLA. Best of luck!

[Bronte]

First off, Congrats! Both are excellent schools, obviously. You'll have to represent your old school well . You can't go wrong with this decision, but I would choose Michigan because: you will have enough biglaw opportunities coming from there, it is generally regarded as a better school, you will have more clerkship opportunities, and will get that solid academic community. Not hating on NU at all, because it's a great school, but the impression I get when I look at Michigan is that Michigan is more of a respected learning community. Those neo-gothic buildings really would be neat to study at for the next two years. That said, NU's campus is pretty awesome as well, and if you're wanting to stay in Chicago, there's something to be said for a good school that's in the city. Two good options, but my vote is for Michigan.

Also, JOT, you'll have to let me know when you hear back from UCLA. Best of luck!

I would also choose Michigan, but I'm a Michigan troll, so don't mind me. I don't buy the whole "NU is better for Chicago, but no different for NY" story. I'll concede that NU is better for Chicago, but only on the concession that Michigan is better for NY. (Of course, Rayiner might have meant that Michigan has better placement in other markets, like the West Coast. Then again, he might also have meant that NU just has better placement, which might be true, but I think the schools are peers when no market is specified.)

If I wanted Chicago, and nothing but Chicago, I would go to NU, but think you'd be fine choosing Michigan even in that case and even for fairly nuanced reasons, e.g., "fit" or whatever. If I wanted New York and only New York, I'd go to Michigan. Ultimately, with money the same, you're free to decide on whatever asinine trait or whim floats your boat.

[rayiner]

First off, Congrats! Both are excellent schools, obviously. You'll have to represent your old school well . You can't go wrong with this decision, but I would choose Michigan because: you will have enough biglaw opportunities coming from there, it is generally regarded as a better school, you will have more clerkship opportunities, and will get that solid academic community. Not hating on NU at all, because it's a great school, but the impression I get when I look at Michigan is that Michigan is more of a respected learning community. Those neo-gothic buildings really would be neat to study at for the next two years. That said, NU's campus is pretty awesome as well, and if you're wanting to stay in Chicago, there's something to be said for a good school that's in the city. Two good options, but my vote is for Michigan.

Also, JOT, you'll have to let me know when you hear back from UCLA. Best of luck!

I would also choose Michigan, but I'm a Michigan troll, so don't mind me. I don't buy the whole "NU is better for Chicago, but no different for NY" story. I'll concede that NU is better for Chicago, but only on the concession that Michigan is better for NY. (Of course, Rayiner might have meant that Michigan has better placement in other markets, like the West Coast. Then again, he might also have meant that NU just has better placement, which might be true, but I think the schools are peers when no market is specified.)

If I wanted Chicago, and nothing but Chicago, I would go to NU, but think you'd be fine choosing Michigan even in that case and even for fairly nuanced reasons, e.g., "fit" or whatever. If I wanted New York and only New York, I'd go to Michigan. Ultimately, with money the same, you're free to decide on whatever asinine trait or whim floats your boat.

I think Michigan's old-school prestige gives it an edge in DC (which doesn't seem to like NU grads much at all). Dominating Chicago also has a limited upside considering how few jobs are in the city. I'm not willing to concede Michigan has any discernible edge in NY but I can't prove that.

Overall, I think ITE NU is placing better than Michigan. See C/O 2010 data from both:

http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/statistics/ (NU posted very detailed data this year, including a complete salary distribution)

NU had 285 graduates with 233 (82%) reporting salaries. They show 162 of 285 graduates making north of six figures. Another 25 got federal clerkships. That adds up to 187 (66%) in some sort of biglaw or a federal clerkship. This assumes that all those not reporting salaries did not get big law or a clerkship and all those who took state clerkships being C/O 2010 rather than alumni.

Michigan had 374 graduates with 211 (56%) reporting salaries. They do not give a distribution, but let's assume all 171 people who took firm jobs and reported a salary got biglaw. Further assume that all 38 people who got clerkships got a federal clerkship. That's 209 of 374, or 56%.

This difference of 10% or so (entirely from biglaw) would be consistent with stronger placement in Chicago and equivalent placement in NYC.

[Bronte]

I think Michigan's old-school prestige gives it an edge in DC (which doesn't seem to like NU grads much at all). Dominating Chicago also has a limited upside considering how few jobs are in the city. I'm not willing to concede Michigan has any discernible edge in NY but I can't prove that.

Overall, I think ITE NU is placing better than Michigan. See C/O 2010 data from both:

http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/statistics/ (NU posted very detailed data this year, including a complete salary distribution)

NU had 285 graduates with 233 (82%) reporting salaries. They show 162 of 285 graduates making north of six figures. Another 25 got federal clerkships. That adds up to 187 (66%) in some sort of biglaw or a federal clerkship. This assumes that all those not reporting salaries did not get big law or a clerkship and all those who took state clerkships being C/O 2010 rather than alumni.

Michigan had 374 graduates with 211 (56%) reporting salaries. They do not give a distribution, but let's assume all 171 people who took firm jobs and reported a salary got biglaw. Further assume that all 38 people who got clerkships got a federal clerkship. That's 209 of 374, or 56%.

This difference of 10% or so (entirely from biglaw) would be consistent with stronger placement in Chicago and equivalent placement in NYC.

I haven't had time to look at that data yet (and frankly probably won't, but would encourage 0Ls considering both to do so). One factor is just that Michigan isn't posting the same quality of data, which isn't good, but doesn't necessarily result in definitive conclusions.

Another thing I will mention, which obviously you and I know, is that NU students tend to have stronger pre-LS work experience, which arguably helps them ITE. This fact reflects on the quality of the student body but is not particularly probative of one's personal success in terms of finding employment coming out of either school. Your credentials follow you either way, so the fact that there's more WE people at NU shouldn't change your decision to that extent.

Maybe NU is doing better ITE. They definitely have posted some of the strongest stats during the crisis out of their peers. It's a great institution. However, on a cursory glance, I think the stats look good from both schools. I don't think OP can go wrong in terms of the decision between the two, money equal. Would you agree with that?

[traehekat]

I'm comparing the firms that will likely be at both schools, and it looks NU has only slightly fewer NYC firms coming. NU also have A LOT more Chicago firms coming. Michigan only had 17 Chicago firms last year, meanwhile this year NU has about 50 from Chicago. NU's OCI overall just looks much more impressive.

The reservations I have about NU are that I just don't know how transfers in particular do there. From what I have heard from Michigan transfers they all tend to do pretty well, even if they don't get their first choice. I'm not sure how big of a deal the clerkship thing is - I figure my chances are low no matter which school I choose, so it shouldn't be a big factor.

First off, Congrats! Both are excellent schools, obviously. You'll have to represent your old school well . You can't go wrong with this decision, but I would choose Michigan because: you will have enough biglaw opportunities coming from there, it is generally regarded as a better school, you will have more clerkship opportunities, and will get that solid academic community. Not hating on NU at all, because it's a great school, but the impression I get when I look at Michigan is that Michigan is more of a respected learning community. Those neo-gothic buildings really would be neat to study at for the next two years. That said, NU's campus is pretty awesome as well, and if you're wanting to stay in Chicago, there's something to be said for a good school that's in the city. Two good options, but my vote is for Michigan.

Thanks man! Yeah, that pretty much sums up why Michigan would be a solid choice. Either way I am going to be giving up something, no way around it. Good luck with your transfer apps, have you heard back from anyone yet?

[rayiner]

I think Michigan's old-school prestige gives it an edge in DC (which doesn't seem to like NU grads much at all). Dominating Chicago also has a limited upside considering how few jobs are in the city. I'm not willing to concede Michigan has any discernible edge in NY but I can't prove that.

Overall, I think ITE NU is placing better than Michigan. See C/O 2010 data from both:

http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/statistics/ (NU posted very detailed data this year, including a complete salary distribution)

NU had 285 graduates with 233 (82%) reporting salaries. They show 162 of 285 graduates making north of six figures. Another 25 got federal clerkships. That adds up to 187 (66%) in some sort of biglaw or a federal clerkship. This assumes that all those not reporting salaries did not get big law or a clerkship and all those who took state clerkships being C/O 2010 rather than alumni.

Michigan had 374 graduates with 211 (56%) reporting salaries. They do not give a distribution, but let's assume all 171 people who took firm jobs and reported a salary got biglaw. Further assume that all 38 people who got clerkships got a federal clerkship. That's 209 of 374, or 56%.

This difference of 10% or so (entirely from biglaw) would be consistent with stronger placement in Chicago and equivalent placement in NYC.

Another thing I will mention, which obviously you and I know, is that NU students tend to have stronger pre-LS work experience, which arguably helps them ITE. This fact reflects on the quality of the student body but is not particularly probative of one's personal success in terms of finding employment coming out of either school. Your credentials follow you either way, so the fact that there's more WE people at NU shouldn't change your decision to that extent.

Maybe NU is doing better ITE. They definitely have posted some of the strongest stats during the crisis out of their peers. It's a great institution. However, on a cursory glance, I think the stats look good from both schools. I don't think OP can go wrong in terms of the decision between the two, money equal. Would you agree with that?

I think the work experience angle definitely plays a huge factor. The point I'm trying to make isn't necessarily that NU is doing better ITE based on its rep alone, but rather that I can claim NU has a measurable edge in Chicago (which is a very limited claim b/c essentially I just mean it has a measurable edge at Kirkland and Sidley) without conceding anything re: NYC. I think that is worth considering in the decision. And of course, money being equal it would not be wrong of the OP to pick based on whether he or she likes neo-gothic versus modern glass office mid-rise.

[PDaddy]

Northwestern. Northwestern's domination of the only two Chicago firms still hiring people (Sidley and Kirkland) over Michigan is not to be underestimated. Clerkships is probably a slight edge to Michigan, but not a decisive one.

Thanks for this information regarding Sidley and Kirkland, if it's true! I had no idea about those two firms being the only firms still hiring people.

How many SCOTUS justices are from U-Michigan? i mean, you might as well leave it up to something arbitrary. I think your job prospects are the same at either one, except fort Sidley and Kirkland, as stated above. So go with the heart...and if you need an edge, consider my SCOTUS question above.

[Bronte]

Northwestern. Northwestern's domination of the only two Chicago firms still hiring people (Sidley and Kirkland) over Michigan is not to be underestimated. Clerkships is probably a slight edge to Michigan, but not a decisive one.

Thanks for this information regarding Sidley and Kirkland, if it's true! I had no idea about those two firms being the only firms still hiring people.

How many SCOTUS justices are from U-Michigan? i mean, you might as well leave it up to something arbitrary. I think your job prospects are the same at either one, except fort Sidley and Kirkland, as stated above. So go with the heart...and if you need an edge, consider my SCOTUS question above.

Not 100% sure what you're getting at, but a transfer (given that he probably has high grades) has a relatively realistic shot at Sidley and K&E from either school. At least when compared to clerking for the Supreme Court, let alone getting on the bench, lol.

[traehekat]

Obviously it is going to come down to which school gives me the best shot at being an astronaut.

Update: Going to go with NU, barring any discovery that transfers do poorly at OCI (so if any debt-crushed, unemployed NU transfer students are lurking, now is the time to speak).

[Lieut Kaffee]

Skimming the thread... no one has brought up the Chi/AA difference? Pretty huge lifestyle difference to consider.

Enjoying LS is underrated on TLS...

[Bronte]

Obviously it is going to come down to which school gives me the best shot at being an astronaut.

Update: Going to go with NU, barring any discovery that transfers do poorly at OCI (so if any debt-crushed, unemployed NU transfer students are lurking, now is the time to speak).

Congrats dude. Give em hell.

Skimming the thread... no one has brought up the Chi/AA difference? Pretty huge lifestyle difference to consider.

Enjoying LS is underrated on TLS...

How can you underrate something that's impossible?

[Lieut Kaffee]

How can you underrate something that's impossible?

Loved my first year! But seriously, at Michigan will feel more like UG. Tailgating, college town, younger adults everywhere. Lots of fun in that. Northwestern is obviously urban. Good public transportation, more variety of things to do. Probably easier to feel isolated from school if that's your thing. Lots of fun there too. Just depends on the person.

[pandacot]

Just browsing thread. I'm a UM transfer, did well at OCI because of pre-LS experience, but wouldn't recommend transferring to UM to most.

What is the cost difference between UM and N?