Top Law Schools

Still thinking about the possibility of transferring, although I think most, if not all, T14ish schools are likely out for me. But I'm posting because I heard something interesting today from someone at my school, that I imagine may be more common than is often acknowledged on here about transfers.

This person mentioned that one of his/her classmates (a year above me) transferred a year ago from our T50 to a T10 school. The T10 is a school that generally says they want top 5%+ students, so I think the guy prob did great here. He got no OCI firm offers at the T10 OCI, and is working for free (though the T10 does have some sort of program to help pay his costs for the summer). The person I was talking with said that he would have almost undoubtedly gotten a paying firm job with his grades if he had stayed at our school and done our T50 OCI, which I believe is entirely accurate.

Usually transferring up is for OCI purposes, but really doesn't the transfer hurt chances at OCI just as much as it could help? In most cases for a transfer to a top school the student is top 10% or better, so unless they go to a TTT type school I would think they are probably a shoe-in for a firm job where they are. Just curious, especially since the OCI thing is usually the rationale given for transferring.

Nobody is a shoe in at any firm. Transferring usually presents an opportunity to do more OCI interviews. A lot can go wrong during interview season and cause a strike out that isn't within a candidates direct control. Nobody going through OCI has ever done OCI before, nobody knows how to perfectly bid or interview or research. Transfers definitely aren't always viewed in a favorable or consistent light, and will also fight against that X-factor.

Most importantly, top 10% at 'old school' would never have been a lock for somebody who transferred and struck out, because obviously they didn't have creds to guarantee an offer. It's not at all impossible that transferring hurt odds, but there's just no such thing as a lock.

..

This is definitely a concern of mine as well. If anyone else has any insight into this potential problem, including which T10 schools have OCIs that are (or aren't) transfer-friendly, I would appreciate it.

I don't know about other schools, but as far as I know, all of the HLS transfers got offers from at least one (usually more) of their top choice firms. These firms included pretty much all of the Vault 25, with a few exceptions (I didn't hear of anyone landing Wachtell, and W&C displayed a distinctly hostile attitude toward at least one transfer explicitly due to his transfer status).

I've heard about transfers striking out as well; but I think it's basically because no one is guaranteed anything at OCI, and most transfers are coming from schools where even the #1 person is at risk for a strike out (whether they stay or go). So you basically have the risk of graduating jobless with little debt from your current school or the risk graduating jobless from a T10 with lots of debt.

I am interested in "transfer friendly" firms, though (for anyone who's been through OCI; and not YHS transfer who I would bet are at a FAR lower risk of striking out).

keg411 wrote:I've heard about transfers striking out as well; but I think it's basically because no one is guaranteed anything at OCI, and most transfers are coming from schools where even the #1 person is at risk for a strike out (whether they stay or go). So you basically have the risk of graduating jobless with little debt from your current school or the risk graduating jobless from a T10 with lots of debt.

I am interested in "transfer friendly" firms, though (for anyone who's been through OCI; and not YHS transfer who I would bet are at a FAR lower risk of striking out).

+1.

I know plenty of transfers who got stuff at OCI and plenty of top 10% T2 students who didn't. There's really zero reason for a transfer to actually count against you. At least that's true in major markets -- maybe in some secondary markets there are weird pride/loyalty things with some interviewers, although I have no idea.

The title of this thread suggests "Screwed out of OCI BECAUSE of a transfer up," and I think therein lies the problem.

Everyone should realize that if you transfer from a T2 to a T10, you are still a T2 student who just put on new T10 clothes... during OCI, you won't have gone to that school for any period of time, and most likely you won't have attended any classes aside from perhaps the transfer orientation.

The advantage to transferring is that, in theory, it will result in more interviews. That's the only benefit. Whether or not a person does well in those interviews depends on that persons interview ability, but being a transfer has little impact (aside from a handful of firms that may be hostile to transfers).

Thus, the main difference is that at the T10, you should have 20+ interviews, whereas at the T2, you might have only 10. If someone is going to strike out with 20 interviews sitting in the T10 interview room, that person is also going to strike out with 10 interviews sitting in the T2 interview room.

Vronsky wrote:The title of this thread suggests "Screwed out of OCI BECAUSE of a transfer up," and I think therein lies the problem.

Everyone should realize that if you transfer from a T2 to a T10, you are still a T2 student who just put on new T10 clothes... during OCI, you won't have gone to that school for any period of time, and most likely you won't have attended any classes aside from perhaps the transfer orientation.

The advantage to transferring is that, in theory, it will result in more interviews. That's the only benefit. Whether or not a person does well in those interviews depends on that persons interview ability, but being a transfer has little impact (aside from a handful of firms that may be hostile to transfers).

Thus, the main difference is that at the T10, you should have 20+ interviews, whereas at the T2, you might have only 10. If someone is going to strike out with 20 interviews sitting in the T10 interview room, that person is also going to strike out with 10 interviews sitting in the T2 interview room.

+1

This is absolutely consistent with what I have observed, especially the bolded.

I am well inside the top 5% at my T2, and I am choosing not to transfer partly because of this. I did a bunch of 1L SA interviews with the local (secondary market) firms, my summer job is in this area, and this is where I want to live. I have the stats to xfer, but for the market I want to work in I made the calculated choice to stay: I'll graduate with less debt and I'm pretty sure I'll have a better shot at this market with a single digit rank at my current school than at the closest T14 800 miles away. At least I hope so.

When asked to prove I want to be in this market, I can say, "Look, with my grades I could have transferred to XX or XX, but I chose to stay because I want to be in this market."

I'm wondering if I will regret it though, since I know I could get into at least a few elite schools. I know I'll regret it if I don't get an SA for next year.

kswiss wrote:When asked to prove I want to be in this market, I can say, "Look, with my grades I could have transferred to XX or XX, but I chose to stay because I want to be in this market."

Don't even consider saying this or anything remotely like this in an interview. Jesus.

thesealocust wrote:

kswiss wrote:When asked to prove I want to be in this market, I can say, "Look, with my grades I could have transferred to XX or XX, but I chose to stay because I want to be in this market."

Don't even consider saying this or anything remotely like this in an interview. Jesus.

+1

Transferring is a risk. It won't always turn out well. Figure out if it makes sense based on your individual circumstances.

D.Wilde wrote:I don't know about other schools, but as far as I know, all of the HLS transfers got offers from at least one (usually more) of their top choice firms. These firms included pretty much all of the Vault 25, with a few exceptions (I didn't hear of anyone landing Wachtell, and W&C displayed a distinctly hostile attitude toward at least one transfer explicitly due to his transfer status).

Thats stupid. They still are attending.

It could also be that they are just terrible at interviewing / an awkward person. I know a guy who is top 3% at a 50-60 ranked school but he is absolutely the most awkward/annoying person ever and no one would even give him a call back (not even the smaller firms he resorted to later in the year).

Total Litigator wrote:It could also be that they are just terrible at interviewing / an awkward person. I know a guy who is top 3% at a 50-60 ranked school but he is absolutely the most awkward/annoying person ever and no one would even give him a call back (not even the smaller firms he resorted to later in the year).

glad to see they look at more than what is just on paper. I wonder if that works in reverse? Not top 5% number wise but good head on shoulders/interviewed well.

Br3v wrote:

Total Litigator wrote:It could also be that they are just terrible at interviewing / an awkward person. I know a guy who is top 3% at a 50-60 ranked school but he is absolutely the most awkward/annoying person ever and no one would even give him a call back (not even the smaller firms he resorted to later in the year).

glad to see they look at more than what is just on paper. I wonder if that works in reverse? Not top 5% number wise but good head on shoulders/interviewed well.

Depends. Grades are usually what gets you in the door in a lot of places. If you don't make the cut-off, you don't even get to show how well you come across.

rapstar wrote:

thesealocust wrote:

kswiss wrote:When asked to prove I want to be in this market, I can say, "Look, with my grades I could have transferred to XX or XX, but I chose to stay because I want to be in this market."

Don't even consider saying this or anything remotely like this in an interview. Jesus.

+1

Yeah, a statement like that is a quick way to make any interviewer's douche-o-meter go through the roof, haha.

missinglink wrote:

Br3v wrote:

Total Litigator wrote:It could also be that they are just terrible at interviewing / an awkward person. I know a guy who is top 3% at a 50-60 ranked school but he is absolutely the most awkward/annoying person ever and no one would even give him a call back (not even the smaller firms he resorted to later in the year).

glad to see they look at more than what is just on paper. I wonder if that works in reverse? Not top 5% number wise but good head on shoulders/interviewed well.

Depends. Grades are usually what gets you in the door in a lot of places. If you don't make the cut-off, you don't even get to show how well you come across.

Yeah unfortunately this is the truth. The exception is that sometimes a resume with great experiences / abilities on it will allow for the benefit of the doubt that you might be a cool functioning guy/girl. This will sometimes give you some leeway in relation to your grades, but its always in relation to your grades.

numbers game

As long as you can articulate a semi-legit reason, I have serious doubts as to somebody being in a tangibly worse position during OCI compared to the experience they would have received had they remained at their old school. Sure, maybe the guy who was top 7% at Pepperdine transfers to Berkeley and strikes out at OCI, but unless you can offer up some proof that he wouldn't have received the same result had he stayed at Pepperdine, I fail to see the point. At least he has a better alumni network to fall back on and a flashier LS name to show on his resume during his job search. Clerkships are another story and I think there is some definite truth to a transfer possibly hurting you in that regard, but only in certain circumstances, e.g. transferring away from a very good school that is already placing +5% in ArtIII clerkships.

Helmholtz wrote:As long as you can articulate a semi-legit reason, I have serious doubts as to somebody being in a tangibly worse position during OCI compared to the experience they would have received had they remained at their old school. Sure, maybe the guy who was top 7% at Pepperdine transfers to Berkeley and strikes out at OCI, but unless you can offer up some proof that he wouldn't have received the same result had he stayed at Pepperdine, I fail to see the point. At least he has a better alumni network to fall back on and a flashier LS name to show on his resume during his job search. Clerkships are another story and I think there is some definite truth to a transfer possibly hurting you in that regard, but only in certain circumstances, e.g. transferring away from a very good school that is already placing +5% in ArtIII clerkships.

real question...how would it hurt in regards to a clerkship?

Br3v wrote:

Helmholtz wrote:As long as you can articulate a semi-legit reason, I have serious doubts as to somebody being in a tangibly worse position during OCI compared to the experience they would have received had they remained at their old school. Sure, maybe the guy who was top 7% at Pepperdine transfers to Berkeley and strikes out at OCI, but unless you can offer up some proof that he wouldn't have received the same result had he stayed at Pepperdine, I fail to see the point. At least he has a better alumni network to fall back on and a flashier LS name to show on his resume during his job search. Clerkships are another story and I think there is some definite truth to a transfer possibly hurting you in that regard, but only in certain circumstances, e.g. transferring away from a very good school that is already placing +5% in ArtIII clerkships.

real question...how would it hurt in regards to a clerkship?

Losing connections for clerkship LORs. At least that's what I've been told.

Helmholtz wrote:

Br3v wrote:

Helmholtz wrote:As long as you can articulate a semi-legit reason, I have serious doubts as to somebody being in a tangibly worse position during OCI compared to the experience they would have received had they remained at their old school. Sure, maybe the guy who was top 7% at Pepperdine transfers to Berkeley and strikes out at OCI, but unless you can offer up some proof that he wouldn't have received the same result had he stayed at Pepperdine, I fail to see the point. At least he has a better alumni network to fall back on and a flashier LS name to show on his resume during his job search. Clerkships are another story and I think there is some definite truth to a transfer possibly hurting you in that regard, but only in certain circumstances, e.g. transferring away from a very good school that is already placing +5% in ArtIII clerkships.

real question...how would it hurt in regards to a clerkship?

Losing connections for clerkship LORs. At least that's what I've been told.

so you have to know judge for awhile to get spot?