Transferred T2 to HYS, taking questions Forum

[adonai]

How many of HYS were you accepted into?

[dakatz]

"I know there's some controversy about it, but I think that 0L prepping is very helpful. I recommend reading E&Es. It helps you by giving you a bird's-eye view of the subjects"

Oh great. You just went and undid months of hard work trying to make 0L's understand that 0L prep is largely worthless. Now they will say "Oh but the guy who transferred into HYS says its a good idea!" But then again, you got into HYS, so your study opinions weigh more heavily than mine.

[leppotse]

"I know there's some controversy about it, but I think that 0L prepping is very helpful. I recommend reading E&Es. It helps you by giving you a bird's-eye view of the subjects"

Oh great. You just went and undid months of hard work trying to make 0L's understand that 0L prep is largely worthless. Now they will say "Oh but the guy who transferred into HYS says its a good idea!" But then again, you got into HYS, so your study opinions weigh more heavily than mine.

Sorry man. I know I'm just one data point, but I advise everyone to do it. I'm not sure I understand the opposing arguments, to be honest. How could it be bad to be more familiar with the content? Anyway, not trying to derail my own thread, so I'll clam up about that.

[leppotse]

How many of HYS were you accepted into?

Fair question, but it seems dangerous to answer this. If I say 1, people will assume I transferred to Stanford, if 2 that I transferred to Harvard, or if 3 that I transferred to Yale. At least, that's what I would assume (even though I'm not sure that it's a great assumption now that I think about it, as there are many who would choose Stanford over Harvard, or perhaps even Harvard over Yale).

[adonai]

How many of HYS were you accepted into?

Fair question, but it seems dangerous to answer this. If I say 1, people will assume I transferred to Stanford, if 2 that I transferred to Harvard, or if 3 that I transferred to Yale. At least, that's what I would assume (even though I'm not sure that it's a great assumption now that I think about it, as there are many who would choose Stanford over Harvard, or perhaps even Harvard over Yale).

Well, to be fair, just by saying numbers I wouldn't even know what schools you got accepted into, so I don't think it would matter. If you said 1, it could be any of HYS, and they're all equally hard to transfer into. Now if I asked a question like "did any of HYS take into consideration your LSAT" then it would single out Harvard.

[leppotse]

How many of HYS were you accepted into?

Fair question, but it seems dangerous to answer this. If I say 1, people will assume I transferred to Stanford, if 2 that I transferred to Harvard, or if 3 that I transferred to Yale. At least, that's what I would assume (even though I'm not sure that it's a great assumption now that I think about it, as there are many who would choose Stanford over Harvard, or perhaps even Harvard over Yale).

Well, to be fair, just by saying numbers I wouldn't even know what schools you got accepted into, so I don't think it would matter. If you said 1, it could be any of HYS, and they're all equally hard to transfer into. Now if I asked a question like "did any of the schools that accepted you take into consideration your LSAT" then it would single out Harvard.

I'm not sure that I agree that they're all equally hard to get into. Yale's review process is idiosyncratic in ways that necessarily make it harder in my book. I think Stanford and Harvard are just looking for different things, so for some people one is harder, and for others the other. That said, my answer was about where people would matriculate, given options, and did not depend on Stanford being easier or Yale being harder. If cross-admits to HYS choose Yale 80% of the time (which I think they do, but I'd be open to being shown otherwise), then the answer that I got into all three would be a strong indicator that I transferred to Yale (and so on). See what I mean?

At any rate, I'm sorry to be difficult but I still don't feel comfortable answering this question.

[adonai]

How many of HYS were you accepted into?

Fair question, but it seems dangerous to answer this. If I say 1, people will assume I transferred to Stanford, if 2 that I transferred to Harvard, or if 3 that I transferred to Yale. At least, that's what I would assume (even though I'm not sure that it's a great assumption now that I think about it, as there are many who would choose Stanford over Harvard, or perhaps even Harvard over Yale).

Well, to be fair, just by saying numbers I wouldn't even know what schools you got accepted into, so I don't think it would matter. If you said 1, it could be any of HYS, and they're all equally hard to transfer into. Now if I asked a question like "did any of the schools that accepted you take into consideration your LSAT" then it would single out Harvard.

I'm not sure that I agree that they're all equally hard to get into. Yale's review process is idiosyncratic in ways that necessarily make it harder in my book. I think Stanford and Harvard are just looking for different things, so for some people one is harder, and for others the other. That said, my answer was about where people would matriculate, given options, and did not depend on Stanford being easier or Yale being harder. If cross-admits to HYS choose Yale 80% of the time (which I think they do, but I'd be open to being shown otherwise), then the answer that I got into all three would be a strong indicator that I transferred to Yale (and so on). See what I mean?

At any rate, I'm sorry to be difficult but I still don't feel comfortable answering this question.

Yes, I understand. Thank you for being helpful and appreciate the information.

[traehekat]

Did you give up a scholarship at your T2? If so, how much did that weigh into your decision to transfer?

Thanks for answering questions.

[leppotse]

Yes, I understand. Thank you for being helpful and appreciate the information.

I thought about it again, and I think your comment is more fair than I originally thought--it is genuinely debatable whether Stanford or Harvard is harder, and that is a relevant piece of information. However, the answer to the question remains revealing. If I say 3, we can assume Yale, because why would I not go there if I got in. If I say 2 or 1, we can confidently infer not Yale, because we can be confident that for nearly all candidates Yale is appreciably harder to get into. So, it's not quite as revealing as my initial reaction suggested, but it still narrows things down more than I would like.

[leppotse]

Did you give up a scholarship at your T2? If so, how much did that weigh into your decision to transfer?

Thanks for answering questions.

Yeah I did. It would have been more of a factor if I had missed HYS, and had been looking at CCN only (but I still almost certainly would have gone). Given that I was attending for essentially free, the cost to transfer was about $100k. That's not nothing, but it's not nearly enough to make the T2 more attractive.

[adonai]

Yes, I understand. Thank you for being helpful and appreciate the information.

I thought about it again, and I think your comment is more fair than I originally thought--it is genuinely debatable whether Stanford or Harvard is harder, and that is a relevant piece of information. However, the answer to the question remains revealing. If I say 3, we can assume Yale, because why would I not go there if I got in. If I say 2 or 1, we can confidently infer not Yale, because we can be confident that for nearly all candidates Yale is appreciably harder to get into. So, it's not quite as revealing as my initial reaction suggested, but it still narrows things down more than I would like.

Yeah, although it would be pretty foolish to assume anything about HYS, 3 could probably be narrowed down to Yale (although someone like xeoh got into all 3 of HYS transfer and went to S instead) and 1 could probably be narrowed down to H because of the larger transfer class. But I simply don't know enough information about you to even think those assumptions are close to being sound.

[reasonable_man]

Op. Thanks for coming out. I'm practicing (2008 grad), and its nice to see some people with some actual information to share on here. Congratulations. It sounds like a lot of hard work paid off in your case and that really is awesome. Keep killing it.

[BackToTheOldHouse]

How difficult was it for you to acclimate to your new school? Did you ever end up feeling like an actual/authentic part of the graduating class? Or did people shun you--you know laugh, point fingers, and generally treat you like you were scum? <------------exaggerating, but I know how some transfers are treated in undergrad.

Thanks for the cool thread.

[traehekat]

Did you give up a scholarship at your T2? If so, how much did that weigh into your decision to transfer?

Thanks for answering questions.

Yeah I did. It would have been more of a factor if I had missed HYS, and had been looking at CCN only (but I still almost certainly would have gone). Given that I was attending for essentially free, the cost to transfer was about $100k. That's not nothing, but it's not nearly enough to make the T2 more attractive.

Do you feel like it was really worth it for 100k? That is basically what I would be looking at, and I'm struggling to figure out what exactly I would be "paying for," so to speak. I understand that perhaps academia and more prestigious clerkships become available, but don't these particular routes, more than anything else, require law review? And isn't nearly impossible to get on law review as a transfer? I kind of see it as on the one hand a better school is going to provide you with more opportunities but forgoing law review pretty much cancels a lot of those opportunities out. Does that make any sense or am I totally off?

I'm also curious as to how firms evaluate transfer students. Am I really in a better position if they look at my application through OCI bidding as a T6 student with only T1 grades as opposed to a T1 student who sent a targeted mailing with the same T1 grades? I don't know how much light you can shed on this, but again I appreciate your advice.

[bellamy]

1L GPA? Also, do you know what the 1L school range was for the other transfers that got accepted into your transfer school? Basically, do you think 1L's at TTT's are basically locked out of HYS (as seems to be the consensus on this board)?

I don't know if I'm comfortable saying my exact 1L gpa. It was about a 3.9 (although that probably won't help you, as T2s can vary somewhat on their curves/distributions).

Others in my transfer class generally came from higher-ranked schools. Several were T14. Nobody from a T3/T4. I don't think that 1Ls at TTTs are categorically locked out of HYS, but I do think you'd need to be pretty extraordinary to pull that off. I'd be surprised if it hadn't happened at least a few times.

Were any from CCN ? If so are there substantial advantages to transfer from CC to HLS? Thanks

[leppotse]

adonai: ok, truce! I see your point, and I agree that there are some underlying assumptions in my post that might not be as widely-shared as I originally thought.

Were any from CCN ? If so are there substantial advantages to transfer from CC to HLS? Thanks

I don't think there were. That said, I've heard of it happening. I would say that the only advantages would be lay prestige and ego-stroking, as both CC are plenty prestigious in the legal world, and to be competitive for HLS you'd still have to be near the top of the class (which would give you basically the same opportunities, possibly better). That said, there's probably a legit case for a transfer from CC to YLS, if you want academia.

[leppotse]

Did you give up a scholarship at your T2? If so, how much did that weigh into your decision to transfer?

Thanks for answering questions.

Yeah I did. It would have been more of a factor if I had missed HYS, and had been looking at CCN only (but I still almost certainly would have gone). Given that I was attending for essentially free, the cost to transfer was about $100k. That's not nothing, but it's not nearly enough to make the T2 more attractive.

Do you feel like it was really worth it for 100k? That is basically what I would be looking at, and I'm struggling to figure out what exactly I would be "paying for," so to speak. I understand that perhaps academia and more prestigious clerkships become available, but don't these particular routes, more than anything else, require law review? And isn't nearly impossible to get on law review as a transfer? I kind of see it as on the one hand a better school is going to provide you with more opportunities but forgoing law review pretty much cancels a lot of those opportunities out. Does that make any sense or am I totally off?

I'm also curious as to how firms evaluate transfer students. Am I really in a better position if they look at my application through OCI bidding as a T6 student with only T1 grades as opposed to a T1 student who sent a targeted mailing with the same T1 grades? I don't know how much light you can shed on this, but again I appreciate your advice.

I feel like it was worth it, although sometimes I do have pangs of uncertainty. I probably would have gotten substantially the same job out of OCI if I had stayed. Given my interest in academia, though, it will likely make a big difference when that time comes. Also, the difference in academic environment was/is worth a great deal to me. Finally, even though I'm a pretty laid-back, devil-may-care person, I got some personal satisfaction from pulling it off. That last part's definitely not worth $100k on its own, but it's not worthless either.

The stuff you say about law review is (pretty much) "totally off." (I hope you'll pleased to learn that.) First, you should do your own investigation before transferring, but in terms of HYS, YS both make it very easy for transfers to participate in the writing competition for law review, and transfers make it on every year (I know personally of people who did it both at Yale and and Stanford, and made it on the editorial board as well). Harvard does make it harder, but it's not impossible by any means.

Second, not making law review at HYS is not that big of a deal. I confess that I actually went and spoke to one of my professors at my transfer school to ask for advice after I didn't make law review, and he was openly laughing at the idea that it made any difference. Granted, professors don't always (read: almost never) have a clue what current realities are for students, but when it comes to academia, professors are generally good sources of information. Plenty of people who missed law review (including transfers) got great clerkships. The person from my class who I would be most certain will be a professor (and probably soon) missed law review.

As for firms, conventional wisdom is that you should be expected to be evaluated as a median student at your new school. I'm not sure that holds with HYS. Employers were very interested in me, and all of the transfers I know got fantastic jobs. For firms, a transfer to HYS is pretty much a win-win-win. First, you got outstanding grades in a highly competitive environment. Second, they get to list you as HYS on the firm webpage (etc.). Third, you showed initiative and resourcefulness. Also, OCI at HYS means that you're basically guaranteed screening interviews with as many firms as you want.

[leppotse]

How difficult was it for you to acclimate to your new school? Did you ever end up feeling like an actual/authentic part of the graduating class? Or did people shun you--you know laugh, point fingers, and generally treat you like you were scum? <------------exaggerating, but I know how some transfers are treated in undergrad.

Thanks for the cool thread.

It was difficult in some ways at first mainly because I had to move pretty far (as I said before, my T2 was not in the same general region). Other than that, it was no problem at all. People were very welcoming, and certainly nobody "shunned" me.

The law school social scene is dominated by 1L sections and cliques, but I didn't find it particularly difficult to find a niche and feel comfortable in it. I felt like an "authentic" part of the class pretty much from the beginning.

[leppotse]

Op. Thanks for coming out. I'm practicing (2008 grad), and its nice to see some people with some actual information to share on here. Congratulations. It sounds like a lot of hard work paid off in your case and that really is awesome. Keep killing it.

No problem. I lurk here from time to time and I'm not generally all that impressed with how 0Ls and 1Ls (but especially the 0Ls) advise each other, especially about stuff like this (and employment--ouch). So, I thought I'd try to be part of the solution, as this site isn't going to stop being a popular place to go for information any time soon.

[leppotse]

I'm still around, if anyone wants to ask more.

[Wholigan]

Do you think you got particularly strong LORs from your 1L profs? If so, what did you do to get to know them other than in class and the occasional office-hours drop-in? Do you think you would have felt comfortable staying at your old school if that's the way things shook out after making it known you were looking to transfer?

[PitchO20]

Any transfer stigma pointed at you at your new school? Also, just out of curiosity, how did your peers at the T2 react to you transferring (if you even told them)?

[leppotse]

Do you think you got particularly strong LORs from your 1L profs? If so, what did you do to get to know them other than in class and the occasional office-hours drop-in? Do you think you would have felt comfortable staying at your old school if that's the way things shook out after making it known you were looking to transfer?

I think one of them was particularly strong, and one of them was just strong. I didn't go to office hours (well, once, for one of them, but only to ask for advice about transferring/ask for the rec). Both professors knew me well because I made thoughtful, helpful contributions to class (more for one than the other, though). Note that I wasn't really outspoken in class, just helpful. I only chimed in when I was sure I had something interesting to say. One of my recommending professors, for example, asked me to stay after class a few times to continue discussing things that had come up in class, and we occasionally exchanged emails (he was my strongest rec, which shouldn't be shocking).

The professor I knew less well from class contacted me for a research assistant position based on grades (oddly, grades in other classes, as he was a second semester professor). I built a relationship with him that way. He was also just a great guy in general, and probably would have helped me anyway.

I would have felt completely comfortable staying. The professors I spoke to understood why I wanted to transfer (in this it helped that I had a good reason for wanting to transfer (read: not for prestige) that was also flattering to them--I told them I wanted to go into academia). In fact, when I was applying to transfer, I would have pegged my odds of getting in to any of the T6 as under 5%--I just had no idea about my chances. In retrospect, that was a bad guess--but I mention it only to give you a sense of how I felt about the process as I spoke to professors: I expected that I would be staying.

[leppotse]

Any transfer stigma pointed at you at your new school? Also, just out of curiosity, how did your peers at the T2 react to you transferring (if you even told them)?

None that I saw. Maybe people secretly snickered about me, but if so they were commendably discreet. Most felt (or at least expressed that they felt) that transfer students, far from being stigmatized, were inherently impressive because of the perceived difficulty of pulling it off. I'm not sure that I would go that far myself, but that was the sense that many gave.

Everyone at my T2 was really happy for me. I wasn't the only person who transferred, either; at least one other person made it into a T6 I think.

edit: I would add though that I didn't really tell people at my T2 (either of my intention or my success)--just a couple of people I was close with. Word got around pretty quickly though.

[quiver]

In fact, when I was applying to transfer, I would have pegged my odds of getting in to any of the T6 as under 5%--I just had no idea about my chances. In retrospect, that was a bad guess--but I mention it only to give you a sense of how I felt about the process as I spoke to professors: I expected that I would be staying.

Thinking back, what would you put your chances at now? For someone trying to transfer as high as possible, would it be a good idea to just blanket the top schools with apps (I would place my chances low at this point as well and I don't want to waste the app fees if I have no shot)?

Anything you would have done differently throughout the transfer process, from applications to preparing for transfer and after transfer, etc.?

Thanks for doing this!