Top Law Schools

Hello Friends,
I was just curious as to what all of you think of my chances at a transfer to either the top 5 schools (esp. HYS) according to US News Rankings, or Berkeley. After one semester of law school I currently have a 4.03 at the University of Iowa, and while it may be unreasonable to expect identical performance this spring, I nonetheless expect to do well and maintain a high gpa. I assume I am either 1 or 2 in the class but have not received my specific ranking yet. Any insights or thoughts you have would be appreciated. Thanks!

cojonelso wrote:Hello Friends,
I was just curious as to what all of you think of my chances at a transfer to either the top 5 schools (esp. HYS) according to US News Rankings, or Berkeley. After one semester of law school I currently have a 4.03 at the University of Iowa, and while it may be unreasonable to expect identical performance this spring, I nonetheless expect to do well and maintain a high gpa. I assume I am either 1 or 2 in the class but have not received my specific ranking yet. Any insights or thoughts you have would be appreciated. Thanks!

Dang... you are my role model. I'm an 0L, so others will have to speak from experience. But it sure sounds like you have a legit shot. Congrats!

If you maintain next semester, you should be set for CCN. HYS is really unpredictable, but successful T30 transfers tend to be top 1-2%.

For specific data points:
http://dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/transferapps/
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 7&t=119690

Why would you give up top 1 or 2 in the class for CCN?

Veyron wrote:Why would you give up top 1 or 2 in the class for CCN?

I would, easily.

Your chances are as strong as possible. Transferring is a solid career placement move, unless, possibly, you want a federal clerkship. Why not Chicago ?

Does Iowa give retention scholarships?

BrownBears09 wrote:

Veyron wrote:Why would you give up top 1 or 2 in the class for CCN?

I would, easily.

But WHY? Your prospects of getting a biglaw job at CCN as a transfer are about 60-65%, your chances of getting it as 1 or 2 at Iowa are almost 100%. You will also have more debt at CCN.

Veyron wrote:

BrownBears09 wrote:

Veyron wrote:Why would you give up top 1 or 2 in the class for CCN?

I would, easily.

But WHY? Your prospects of getting a biglaw job at CCN as a transfer are about 60-65%, your chances of getting it as 1 or 2 at Iowa are almost 100%. You will also have more debt at CCN.

Federal clerkships or academia. There is no reason to transfer for biglaw.

Veyron wrote:

BrownBears09 wrote:

Veyron wrote:Why would you give up top 1 or 2 in the class for CCN?

I would, easily.

But WHY? Your prospects of getting a biglaw job at CCN as a transfer are about 60-65%, your chances of getting it as 1 or 2 at Iowa are almost 100%. You will also have more debt at CCN.

As to bolded, BrownBears09 is a 0L, IIRC.

Veyron wrote:

BrownBears09 wrote:

Veyron wrote:Why would you give up top 1 or 2 in the class for CCN?

I would, easily.

But WHY? Your prospects of getting a biglaw job at CCN as a transfer are about 60-65%, your chances of getting it as 1 or 2 at Iowa are almost 100%. You will also have more debt at CCN.

Bias prestige whoring tbh.

Veyron wrote:

BrownBears09 wrote:

Veyron wrote:Why would you give up top 1 or 2 in the class for CCN?

I would, easily.

But WHY? Your prospects of getting a biglaw job at CCN as a transfer are about 60-65%, your chances of getting it as 1 or 2 at Iowa are almost 100%. You will also have more debt at CCN.

umm, what?

Veyron wrote:But WHY? Your prospects of getting a biglaw job at CCN as a transfer are about 60-65%, your chances of getting it as 1 or 2 at Iowa are almost 100%. You will also have more debt at CCN.

I have a hard time believing that 35-40% of transfers into Columbia struck out at OCI. Are you just making up these numbers?

hawkeye22 wrote:Federal clerkships or academia. There is no reason to transfer for biglaw.

This is not necessarily true. Participating in OCI at CCN rather than T30 provides (1) greater regionally flexibility, in case OP does not want to stay in the midwest; and (2) access to more "prestigious" firms with (arguably) better exit options.

That said, I agree that transferring into CCN does not make sense for everyone in OP's position.

concurrent fork wrote:

Veyron wrote:But WHY? Your prospects of getting a biglaw job at CCN as a transfer are about 60-65%, your chances of getting it as 1 or 2 at Iowa are almost 100%. You will also have more debt at CCN.

I have a hard time believing that 35-40% of transfers into Columbia struck out at OCI. Are you just making up these numbers?

hawkeye22 wrote:Federal clerkships or academia. There is no reason to transfer for biglaw.

This is not necessarily true. Participating in OCI at CCN rather than T30 provides (1) greater regionally flexibility, in case OP does not want to stay in the midwest; and (2) access to more "prestigious" firms with (arguably) better exit options.

That said, I agree that transferring into CCN does not make sense for everyone in OP's position.

+1 to everything. well said.

concurrent fork wrote:

Veyron wrote:But WHY? Your prospects of getting a biglaw job at CCN as a transfer are about 60-65%, your chances of getting it as 1 or 2 at Iowa are almost 100%. You will also have more debt at CCN.

I have a hard time believing that 35-40% of transfers into Columbia struck out at OCI. Are you just making up these numbers?

hawkeye22 wrote:
Since I would rather not out myself, lets just pretend that I am.

Veyron wrote:
Since I would rather not out myself, lets just pretend that I am.

I dunno Veryon, I think you're estimate is too low. As a CCN transfer I know of no transfer at my school who did not get a biglaw job who wanted one, and I know of one student at another CCN who doesn't have one who wanted one. It's anecdotal, I know, but still only 60-65% chance seems too low.

cojonelso wrote:Hello Friends,
I was just curious as to what all of you think of my chances at a transfer to either the top 5 schools (esp. HYS) according to US News Rankings, or Berkeley. After one semester of law school I currently have a 4.03 at the University of Iowa, and while it may be unreasonable to expect identical performance this spring, I nonetheless expect to do well and maintain a high gpa. I assume I am either 1 or 2 in the class but have not received my specific ranking yet. Any insights or thoughts you have would be appreciated. Thanks!

Talk to upperclassmen and find out how the top few students did at OCI. If they all have SA's, then stay. If they don't, send transfer apps. For instance, I know a few of the top students at my school got shut out. So if I "repeat" next semester, there is a good chance I will at least send a couple of transfer apps.

Way to kill it man!

Transferring is obviously tough to predict, especially when you are talking about T6 schools. I'd say you have a pretty solid shot at CCN (or just CC, if that's what you are looking at). With HYS I've heard that they generally take transfers who had a shot to be admitted as a first-year, but there are certainly a number of people out there who have made the jump from a T30 to HYS. Probably have a better shot at H than YS, just cause they have a bigger transfer class, I think.

Great job again, repre-fucking-sent.

megaTTTron wrote:

Veyron wrote:
Since I would rather not out myself, lets just pretend that I am.

I dunno Veryon, I think you're estimate is too low. As a CCN transfer I know of no transfer at my school who did not get a biglaw job who wanted one, and I know of one student at another CCN who doesn't have one who wanted one. It's anecdotal, I know, but still only 60-65% chance seems too low.

Guess it depends on what you mean by "biglaw." Almost all transfers are going to be able to land an 80k firm in a tertiary market that would be considered biglaw by local standards - but 160... not necessarily.

Veyron wrote:

megaTTTron wrote:

Veyron wrote:
Since I would rather not out myself, lets just pretend that I am.

I dunno Veryon, I think you're estimate is too low. As a CCN transfer I know of no transfer at my school who did not get a biglaw job who wanted one, and I know of one student at another CCN who doesn't have one who wanted one. It's anecdotal, I know, but still only 60-65% chance seems too low.

Guess it depends on what you mean by "biglaw." Almost all transfers are going to be able to land an 80k firm in a tertiary market that would be considered biglaw by local standards - but 160... not necessarily.

I'm talking about 145 - 160 biglaw. But the only evidence I have is anecdotal (I don't really know what I'm talking about outside that, so you're probably right). I'd hate to paint a brighter picture, but it seems low.

traehekat wrote:With HYS I've heard that they generally take transfers who had a shot to be admitted as a first-year

This is not only untrue but illogical. If the people who transferred could've gotten into those schools as a 0L, most of them would've just gone there in the first place. It doesn't make sense to choose to go to a lower-ranked school, especially a much lower ranked school, do extremely well, and then change your mind and go "I'd rather be going to HYS now even though I had reasons to decline before". This myth comes from the language on HLS' transfer website, which reads:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/prospective/jd/apply/transfer-applicants/index.html wrote:The competition for transfer admission is high. Many successful transfer candidates typically place very near the top of their first-year law class and would have also been admitted or wait-listed as first-year students on the basis of their pre-law-school credentials.

People often misread this to say that you had to be able to get into HLS in the first place to transfer there, but that's not what it says. It's not saying they only take people who would've been admitted or WL'd during the initial cycle. It's only saying that many (as in, some but not all) successful transfer candidates were people who did or could have gotten in that way. There are also successful transfer candidates each year who were outright rejected by HLS as a 0L and had zero chance of getting in that way. I would know.

cojonelso wrote:Hello Friends,
I was just curious as to what all of you think of my chances at a transfer to either the top 5 schools (esp. HYS) according to US News Rankings, or Berkeley. After one semester of law school I currently have a 4.03 at the University of Iowa, and while it may be unreasonable to expect identical performance this spring, I nonetheless expect to do well and maintain a high gpa. I assume I am either 1 or 2 in the class but have not received my specific ranking yet. Any insights or thoughts you have would be appreciated. Thanks!

HLS took a number of T30 students last year, from Iowa's peer schools such as BC, BU, and Minnesota. I don't know how many students from those schools got rejected for comparison, but your GPA is definitely strong enough to warrant serious consideration. The remaining thing for you to do is come up with a way to sell yourself to the school and convince them that you have specific reasons for going there instead of staying and graduating from Iowa.

You should also have a chance at SLS and CCN. I would recommend you apply to YLS if you want it, but with the warning that it's a black box and your odds are slim there no matter how great your rank or app is. However, even if slim, it's a non-zero chance and that alone IMO makes it worth the $80 or so it'll cost to apply.

vanwinkle wrote:

traehekat wrote:With HYS I've heard that they generally take transfers who had a shot to be admitted as a first-year

This is not only untrue but illogical. If the people who transferred could've gotten into those schools as a 0L, most of them would've just gone there in the first place. It doesn't make sense to choose to go to a lower-ranked school, especially a much lower ranked school, do extremely well, and then change your mind and go "I'd rather be going to HYS now even though I had reasons to decline before". This myth comes from the language on HLS' transfer website, which reads:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/prospective/jd/apply/transfer-applicants/index.html wrote:The competition for transfer admission is high. Many successful transfer candidates typically place very near the top of their first-year law class and would have also been admitted or wait-listed as first-year students on the basis of their pre-law-school credentials.

People often misread this to say that you had to be able to get into HLS in the first place to transfer there, but that's not what it says. It's not saying they only take people who would've been admitted or WL'd during the initial cycle. It's only saying that many (as in, some but not all) successful transfer candidates were people who did or could have gotten in that way. There are also successful transfer candidates each year who were outright rejected by HLS as a 0L and had zero chance of getting in that way. I would know.

cojonelso wrote:Hello Friends,
I was just curious as to what all of you think of my chances at a transfer to either the top 5 schools (esp. HYS) according to US News Rankings, or Berkeley. After one semester of law school I currently have a 4.03 at the University of Iowa, and while it may be unreasonable to expect identical performance this spring, I nonetheless expect to do well and maintain a high gpa. I assume I am either 1 or 2 in the class but have not received my specific ranking yet. Any insights or thoughts you have would be appreciated. Thanks!

HLS took a number of T30 students last year, from Iowa's peer schools such as BC, BU, and Minnesota. I don't know how many students from those schools got rejected for comparison, but your GPA is definitely strong enough to warrant serious consideration. The remaining thing for you to do is come up with a way to sell yourself to the school and convince them that you have specific reasons for going there instead of staying and graduating from Iowa.

You should also have a chance at SLS and CCN. I would recommend you apply to YLS if you want it, but with the warning that it's a black box and your odds are slim there no matter how great your rank or app is. However, even if slim, it's a non-zero chance and that alone IMO makes it worth the $80 or so it'll cost to apply.

boom.

vanwinkle wrote:

traehekat wrote:With HYS I've heard that they generally take transfers who had a shot to be admitted as a first-year

This is not only untrue but illogical. If the people who transferred could've gotten into those schools as a 0L, most of them would've just gone there in the first place. It doesn't make sense to choose to go to a lower-ranked school, especially a much lower ranked school, do extremely well, and then change your mind and go "I'd rather be going to HYS now even though I had reasons to decline before". This myth comes from the language on HLS' transfer website, which reads:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/prospective/jd/apply/transfer-applicants/index.html wrote:The competition for transfer admission is high. Many successful transfer candidates typically place very near the top of their first-year law class and would have also been admitted or wait-listed as first-year students on the basis of their pre-law-school credentials.

People often misread this to say that you had to be able to get into HLS in the first place to transfer there, but that's not what it says. It's not saying they only take people who would've been admitted or WL'd during the initial cycle. It's only saying that many (as in, some but not all) successful transfer candidates were people who did or could have gotten in that way. There are also successful transfer candidates each year who were outright rejected by HLS as a 0L and had zero chance of getting in that way. I would know.

Yeah I mean, that's why I said "generally" and "a shot" and noted there is plenty evidence of T30 to HLS transfers out there. I had actually heard this idea a while back and only recently saw it on the website. I was surprised it said "would have also been admitted" because, yeah, they would already be there in that case, as you said. My impression was that they GENERALLY take transfers who either were, or would have been if they had applied, WLed (not admitted, though).

I would probably tend to agree that there is enough data out there of students who had zero shot at HLS as a 0L transferring to HLS after their first year to discredit the idea they even generally take students who had a shot as a 0L. Nonetheless, the idea is still kind of "out there."

megaTTTron wrote:

vanwinkle wrote:

traehekat wrote:With HYS I've heard that they generally take transfers who had a shot to be admitted as a first-year

This is not only untrue but illogical. If the people who transferred could've gotten into those schools as a 0L, most of them would've just gone there in the first place. It doesn't make sense to choose to go to a lower-ranked school, especially a much lower ranked school, do extremely well, and then change your mind and go "I'd rather be going to HYS now even though I had reasons to decline before". This myth comes from the language on HLS' transfer website, which reads:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/prospective/jd/apply/transfer-applicants/index.html wrote:The competition for transfer admission is high. Many successful transfer candidates typically place very near the top of their first-year law class and would have also been admitted or wait-listed as first-year students on the basis of their pre-law-school credentials.

People often misread this to say that you had to be able to get into HLS in the first place to transfer there, but that's not what it says. It's not saying they only take people who would've been admitted or WL'd during the initial cycle. It's only saying that many (as in, some but not all) successful transfer candidates were people who did or could have gotten in that way. There are also successful transfer candidates each year who were outright rejected by HLS as a 0L and had zero chance of getting in that way. I would know.

cojonelso wrote:Hello Friends,
I was just curious as to what all of you think of my chances at a transfer to either the top 5 schools (esp. HYS) according to US News Rankings, or Berkeley. After one semester of law school I currently have a 4.03 at the University of Iowa, and while it may be unreasonable to expect identical performance this spring, I nonetheless expect to do well and maintain a high gpa. I assume I am either 1 or 2 in the class but have not received my specific ranking yet. Any insights or thoughts you have would be appreciated. Thanks!

HLS took a number of T30 students last year, from Iowa's peer schools such as BC, BU, and Minnesota. I don't know how many students from those schools got rejected for comparison, but your GPA is definitely strong enough to warrant serious consideration. The remaining thing for you to do is come up with a way to sell yourself to the school and convince them that you have specific reasons for going there instead of staying and graduating from Iowa.

You should also have a chance at SLS and CCN. I would recommend you apply to YLS if you want it, but with the warning that it's a black box and your odds are slim there no matter how great your rank or app is. However, even if slim, it's a non-zero chance and that alone IMO makes it worth the $80 or so it'll cost to apply.

boom.

Per captia, I think the transfer forum might have the highest number of extremely competent, helpful posters.

Agreed, Patrick. I appreciate the helpful responses. It was along the lines of what I was expecting - A shot at at least one of the HYS three with good odds thereafter. I will let you know how things turn out this summer so that others in my circumstance will have a better idea of their own odds.

For those who are curious as to why I am considering a transfer, it is primarily to have greater flexibility both geographically and occupationally (academia, federal clerkships, etc.). I would like to perhaps enter the academic world after a period of biglaw, and a top-5 degree would be more helpful for that.

For the 0Ls who may be wondering what I attribute my success too, briefly, I attribute it to this:
Be prepared to spend most of your free time studying. I would go as long as I could while managing burnout.
Focus on the rules profs want you to extract from the cases, not on memorizing the details of the case.
E and E's are a godsend.

Once again, thanks for the congrats and helpful posts; best of luck to you all.