what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean? Forum

[romothesavior]

That is silly, you should still try to make choices based on reasonable risk assessment. Choosing to walk outside every morning is not at all analogous to choosing to invest significant money and time in attending a law school.

Sorry. I don't make my choices based on probability. I make my choices based on possibility. In that vein, these two scenarios are quite analagous. I cannot, in good conscience, presume that folks who decide to go to a T4 don't have what it takes to be successful in their goals. because it's their goals. I would prefer not to dumb down someone's legal career to the statistics of the people who attended the school before him. I like to allow people to have some agency in their future. that's just me though, apparently. You've got me at a disadvantage here.

The lottery would love people like you. You should spend your 100k+ for law school on lotto tickets instead. Sure the probability of a return on your investment sucks, but with the "possibility" of you winning, the return on your investment would be a hell of a lot greater.

[jcl2]

That is silly, you should still try to make choices based on reasonable risk assessment. Choosing to walk outside every morning is not at all analogous to choosing to invest significant money and time in attending a law school.

Sorry. I don't make my choices based on probability. I make my choices based on possibility. In that vein, these two scenarios are quite analagous. I cannot, in good conscience, presume that folks who decide to go to a T4 don't have what it takes to be successful in their goals. because it's their goals. I would prefer not to dumb down someone's legal career to the statistics of the people who attended the school before him. I like to allow people to have some agency in their future. that's just me though, apparently. You've got me at a disadvantage here.

edit: I'm not sure what happened to my quote. I guess I'll recreate it:

That is a great outlook to have on life, but you still have to make decisions based on some type of analysis of the potential outcomes of your actions. You don't have to do a cost/benefit analysis for everything you do, and I understand if you are willing to accept greater risk than some because you believe you can overcome that risk through determination or whatever, but, c'mon, you can't just make major life decisions based on what the best possible outcome will be.

Do you gamble regularly? It is possible that you could win a lot of money.

[unknownscholar]

Good thing I'm not interested in playing huh? I make that choice because the possibility of it ending up in someone hands who might try to use the winnings to take away my agency is just too much to bear. more money more power, as they say.

lol.

I should be doing whatever the hell I wanna do. So lemme get back to it.


edit: my point being that my decisions are not driven exclusively by money (debt/winnings,etc). I can't speak for everyone else though. Seriously, just me.

[jcl2]

Good thing I'm not interested in playing huh? I make that choice because the possibility of it ending up in someone hands who might try to use the winnings to take away my agency is just too much to bear. more money more power, as they say.

lol.

I should be doing whatever the hell I wanna do. So lemme get back to it.


edit: my point being that my decisions are not driven exclusively by money (debt/winnings,etc). I can't speak for everyone else though. Seriously, just me.

I'm in the same boat on that point. Sorry I really didn't mean to start an argument with you. My first response was really just a joke, and based on a literal interpretation of what you wrote, which implied that all decisions in life should be made on a whim. I realize that is not really what you intended.

[unknownscholar]

I hadn't intended to argue. my bad.

On a serious note:

we live in a world of constraints, I know. And it's hard for people to ignore that. me too. I think the worst possible thing I could do is to leave my fam hanging with the bill after I've had my fun with life. So I don't take those major decisions lightly. In weighing the options, the first thing I think about, is what I am capable of accomplishing. Once that's been decided, the rest is done.

I like to believe this is good, solid attitude to have, so I chimed in. But I make no presumption that anyone will think it's an easy path to follow or endure. In the same vein, I don't think it's setting anyone up for failure either.

[kswiss]

I think that all of the snarkiness actually does a disservice to the OP in a big way, because it makes it too easy to cast off as elitism.

OP, you really need to ask yourself a few questions about your future. I'm not trying to say anything bad about you or your aspirations or your potential. You should look, however, at the potential of a school to do what you want for it. There are schools, fully accredited by the ABA, in the bottom of the T4, who's graduates have less than a 30% chance of gaining legal employment. The other 70 percent, 9 months after graduation, are either back at their old jobs, unemployed, etc.

The stature of the school does come into play. For example, UC Irvine is still probably a good bet.

If you are independently wealthy, are paying cash, or have a guaranteed job at graduation, then by all means, do what you want to do. There is little risk.

But don't lie to yourself and talk yourself into a bad investment if that isn't the case. Even if it is the case, do yourself a favor and avail yourself to the best legal education you can get. If that means a smaller state school that happens to be T4, then so be it.

The fact that you plan on transferring says a lot about how you feel about the school you might attend. If you knew for a fact that you could never transfer, would you be happy with that degree hanging on your wall, along with its associated employment prospects and debt?

With your numbers, its not like schools are showering you with lucrative scholarship offers. If it is your dream to be a lawyer, start your career right by making very good choices right now. A bad choice could affect you for the rest of your life. Unless you can pay cash, you will likely incur considerable debt in order to attend any school, just make sure you are smart about what you are doing.

Like another poster said, if you just want to go for the pursuit of knowledge, then get the booklist and read them. Write up some hypotheticals. Because there is a statistically good chance (in some cases higher than 80%) that if you attend a T4 of ill reputation, the outcome will be the same: some knowledge of the law, but no job to put it to use.

[Grizz]

Sorry. I don't make my choices based on probability. I make my choices based on possibility.

This is absolutely ridiculous.

If I jump off a cliff, I have a strong probability of dying, but there is a possibility of me surviving. I guess on the way down, I'll "make the best," of my free fall time, because I'll "never lose. Ever."

[onthecusp]

Are you sure about that? I didn't check all of the schools you mentioned, but USC and UCLA just say ABA approved, which I would assume means fully accredited. Maybe not though.

According to the ABA, all Provisionally ABA schools are considered fully ABA accredited for all intents and purposes, the same way a school placed on "ABA Probation" would also be treated as fully ABA approved. This means the education received from provisionally accredited schools is the same as that from a fully approved school. To the ABA, there is no difference.

I stand corrected then. I still think going to a provisionally approved school is a risky proposition, though I guess going to any T4 is a risky proposition.

You're right, and it depends on the school. For example, Western State earned provisional approval in 1998. After their maximum probationary period of 5 years, they were denied full approval by the ABA in 2003, losing their ABA accreditation in the process. They filed a lawsuit in 2004 against the ABA claiming that they were biased against for profit schools. In 2005 they were again granted provisional accreditation, earning full accreditation in July of 2009. Even though they are fully accredited, anyone seriously considering attending Western State should really stop and think about the reputation of the school they are entering. Western State has been notorious for turning out horrid lawyers since 1966. Not only that, the fact that they are a "for profit" organization should be disconcerting. The University of La Verne on the other hand, despite its provisional accreditation, has a very good reputation in the Inland Empire as a regional school. If one were to choose between one or the other, they would probably be better off at La Verne.

[onthecusp]

To be clear, the only reason I would ever attend a TTTT would be on at least a close to full ride scholarship....meaning 80% or higher. I would be extremely nervous attending a TTTT for sticker. I wouldn't pay sticker for a TT, and probably not a T unless it were one of the top 14. When money isn't an issue, and you won't be saddled with 120K+ of debt upon graduation (provided you didn't transfer to a better school), a TTTT school is a low risk option.

[onthecusp]

Actually, now that I think about it, it might have sounded like I was being defensive. I am actually about 50/50 on the transfer front right now and may choose to stay, depending on my options and situation at the end of this semester and if I get into GULC EA or not. Point is, I see tons of bad things about my school and even though there are good things, I think the bad things can overpower the good. It's all relative. I was kind of just making the distinction that t3's and t4's aren't necessarily that different, give or take the REALLY bad t4's. Those schools really do deserve a t4 ranking and t3 does mean something compared to them. We pretty much all know the kind of t4's I'm talking about here.

Anyway, I might be sending a transfer app. out towards your new school. Congrats on your acceptance.

To make the distinction even foggier....Southwestern earned itself Tier 4 status recently, and they have historically been a very solid Tier 3 school for many years. If you're going to attend a TTTT school, it would make sense to at least do so at school that have a strong regional reputation.

[onthecusp]

The lottery would love people like you. You should spend your 100k+ for law school on lotto tickets instead. Sure the probability of a return on your investment sucks, but with the "possibility" of you winning, the return on your investment would be a hell of a lot greater.

Hey A-hole.....we get it. There is no need to come in here and discourage people from doing what they want to do in life. Furthermore, your an idiot.

[romothesavior]

The lottery would love people like you. You should spend your 100k+ for law school on lotto tickets instead. Sure the probability of a return on your investment sucks, but with the "possibility" of you winning, the return on your investment would be a hell of a lot greater.

Hey A-hole.....we get it. There is no need to come in here and discourage people from doing what they want to do in life. Furthermore, your an idiot.

Wow, A-hole? What did I say that made me an A-hole? All of my original posts in response to OP were respectful and sincere. If he has a connection to the legal market or REALLY wants to do law school, he should seriously consider going to a regional T3 or T4 rather than a crappy provisionally accredited school. And I agree with your above posts about going to a lower school. Contrary to popular opinion on here, T3s and T4s can be useful to certain people. If you can go for a seriously discounted rate and you aren't interested in the Skaddens of the world, then go for it. Its all about being realistic and knowing where you want to end up in life.

But I'm sorry, but when someone says something like, "I don't act off of probability, I act off of possibility. I will never lose," then they are opening themselves up for serious criticism. 6 figures of debt from a crappy school is not going to be overcome with pride and bravado. Some amount of risk is okay and hard work usually does pay off, but like someone said above, would you jump off a cliff because there is a possibility you will live?

[onthecusp]

The lottery would love people like you. You should spend your 100k+ for law school on lotto tickets instead. Sure the probability of a return on your investment sucks, but with the "possibility" of you winning, the return on your investment would be a hell of a lot greater.

If no one else will, I'm going to stick up for this person.

So she has the balls to go all in on her self and take a chance in life. Not everyone starts out with people to groom them for success.....some people have to groom themselves. Circumstances were obviously not conducive to allowing her to take the easiest path to achieving her goals, yet she continues in her dreams against all odds; and all anyone wants to do here is crap on a plate in a visual display of their opinion of her chances. She's acknowledged the unlikelihood of success, and I'm sure she's weighed the risks....and I find it hard to believe that all of you are the first to tell her she is unlikely to succeed in her quest. Yet she has the balls to carry on. She strikes me as the kind of person who could succeed in a TTTT institution.....because that what it takes. It takes balls to do what she's doing and I applaud her for her resolve. Why don't you all get off her back....we get it, you don't think she can do it. I'd hire her in a second over any of you, because people with her kind of resolve are infinitely more interesting and productive than those whose personal insecurities force them to belittle those who are not in an ideal situation.

[onthecusp]

Wow, A-hole? What did I say that made me an A-hole? All of my original posts in response to OP were respectful and sincere. If he has a connection to the legal market or REALLY wants to do law school, he should seriously consider going to a regional T3 or T4 rather than a crappy provisionally accredited school. And I agree with your above posts about going to a lower school. Contrary to popular opinion on here, T3s and T4s can be useful to certain people. If you can go for a seriously discounted rate and you aren't interested in the Skaddens of the world, then go for it. Its all about being realistic and knowing where you want to end up in life.

But I'm sorry, but when someone says something like, "I don't act off of probability, I act off of possibility. I will never lose," then they are opening themselves up for serious criticism. 6 figures of debt from a crappy school is not going to be overcome with pride and bravado. Some amount of risk is okay and hard work usually does pay off, but like someone said above, would you jump off a cliff because there is a possibility you will live?

I understand, and I agree with you, and perhaps I overreacted a little bit. I could have directed that post at a number of different posters. I don't mean to start an argument, but I think the snarkiness and elitism would be better served by a simple straight response; and after wading through all the garbage I'm sure the OP got that. I guess I just don't like seeing people get picked on when they would be better served by a constructive answer.

[Grizz]

So she has the balls to go all in on her self and take a chance in life. Not everyone starts out with people to groom them for success.....some people have to groom themselves. Circumstances were obviously not conducive to allowing her to take the easiest path to achieving her goals, yet she continues in her dreams against all odds; and all anyone wants to do here is crap on a plate in a visual display of their opinion of her chances. She's acknowledged the unlikelihood of success, and I'm sure she's weighed the risks....and I find it hard to believe that all of you are the first to tell her she is unlikely to succeed in her quest. Yet she has the balls to carry on.

Going to a TTTT to "following your dreams" of becoming a lawyer is a horrible way to achieve said dreams, but is a great way to destroy yourself financially for the rest of your life with soul-crushing debt.

I implore OP to work for a while to accumulate money for law school and to separate himself/herself from the low GPA, wait until some of those LSATs expire, study and retake the LSAT, and go to a T2 with $ or T3 with $$$.

[onthecusp]

Going to a TTTT to "following your dreams" of becoming a lawyer is a horrible way to achieve said dreams, but is a great way to destroy yourself financially for the rest of your life with soul-crushing debt.

I implore OP to work for a while to accumulate money for law school and to separate himself/herself from the low GPA, wait until some of those LSATs expire, study and retake the LSAT, and go to a T2 with $ or T3 with $$$.

+1 Even re-taking the LSAT and getting at least 155+ will get you money TTTT and maybe TTT schools. If you can do 160+ you're looking at full rides from TTTT, and money from TTT, and TT's. Think about it like this....if someone told you they would give you 120K to score a 160+ on the LSAT....would you take them up on the offer? Thats basically what TTTT's are telling you. For TTT's it probably more like 165+....the point is, it's worth it to study your ass off and give it a shot. If you score 160+, you'll probably have the opportunity to pay sticker at some Tier 1 schools, with possible money from TT's. Much better then paying sticker for a TTTT.

[Danteshek]

To make the distinction even foggier....Southwestern earned itself Tier 4 status recently, and they have historically been a very solid Tier 3 school for many years. If you're going to attend a TTTT school, it would make sense to at least do so at school that have a strong regional reputation.

Southwestern was ranked T3 in the latest ranking. The dip to T4 was two years ago and lasted only one year. According to the dean, the reason for the drop was a couple of tenths of a percentage point in the at graduation employment rate. Outcomes for Southwestern students are not going to vary based on whether US News ranks the school in the T4, T3 or top 100.

[unknownscholar]

Sorry. I don't make my choices based on probability. I make my choices based on possibility.

This is absolutely ridiculous.

If I jump off a cliff, I have a strong probability of dying, but there is a possibility of me surviving. I guess on the way down, I'll "make the best," of my free fall time, because I'll "never lose. Ever."

what possibility is there other than gravity? just wondering. What goes up must come down. People do this kind of stuff for fun, ya know?

--ImageRemoved--

please make the argument that there is no other prospect in attending a t3/t4 law school other than utter failure. please. So I can drop some names. Then you can say, these people are the exception, not the rule. And then I can say, you're right. And therefore, you're wrong.

/unnecessary.

[A'nold]

Danteshek- I don't know why it said that I posted that about Southwestern. It was the other guy.

Also, to dude that keeps using T, TT, TTT, TTTT: There is no such thing as anything but TTT. It is a saying, not an actual symbol. TTT stands for tier 3 toilet and it doesn't matter the ranking. People say GW is a TTT, etc. It looks really.......not cool when your posts are littered with these T's. I'm just saying, not trying to be a jerk; you're probably new to this whole thing.

[onthecusp]

Danteshek- I don't know why it said that I posted that about Southwestern. It was the other guy.

Also, to dude that keeps using T, TT, TTT, TTTT: There is no such thing as anything but TTT. It is a saying, not an actual symbol. TTT stands for tier 3 toilet and it doesn't matter the ranking. People say GW is a TTT, etc. It looks really.......not cool when your posts are littered with these T's. I'm just saying, not trying to be a jerk; you're probably new to this whole thing.

But you knew what I was talking about right? Therefore it was sufficient for the internetz!

And I agree with you...it was annoying just to type it.

[brigun]

Are we still on this topic?

The dead horse has officially been kicked.

[A'nold]

Are we still on this topic?

The dead horse has officially been kicked.

And you would be the expert on things like this, what with your 30+ posts and your long tenure on this site. Oh yeah I forgot to add your really cool spiffy LSAT prep test burning avatar.

[brigun]

Are we still on this topic?

The dead horse has officially been kicked.

And you would be the expert on things like this, what with your 30+ posts and your long tenure on this site. Oh yeah I forgot to add your really cool spiffy LSAT prep test burning avatar.

Wow...touched a nerve did I?

You don't need long tenure on a forum, nor 3K posts to determine if a discussion is past it's prime. LR Fail.

Love the slinky...I had one when I was like 4.

[A'nold]

Are we still on this topic?

The dead horse has officially been kicked.

And you would be the expert on things like this, what with your 30+ posts and your long tenure on this site. Oh yeah I forgot to add your really cool spiffy LSAT prep test burning avatar.

Wow...touched a nerve did I?

You don't need long tenure on a forum, nor 3K posts to determine if a discussion is past it's prime. LR Fail.

Love the slinky...I had one when I was like 4.

*insert someone's name* called and they want their burning LSAT prep test tar back.

[ulv_dropout]

Didn't have time to read this whole post, but I think I have some info that might help you. I attended ULV Fall '09 and decided to leave after one semester. I had a 168 LSAT and 3.45 GPA and got a full scholarship there. I was very torn as to whether to go to the school because of my numbers, but it turned out to be the only option that had a night program within driving distance from my job.

When I got to the school I was actually pleasantly surprised by the level of the students and faculty. I was less impressed by the day students than the evening students, but I didn't really get to know very many of the day students. The professors are generally very good. If you have a desire to learn the law you will be able to do it at ULV. My experience with the school administration was terrible, but I won't go into that.

The level of respect that you will get coming out of this school in the area is not horrible, but you will not be in the running for the few mid size law firms that are out here. When they brought in former alumni to talk to us about their careers after law school it was kind of depressing. Even they admitted that a government gig was the best you could hope for and would only be available to the top of the class.

As far as transferring out, some people have done it. I talked to my TA for contracts who finished in the top 5 or so and he expressed regret for not transferring out when he could. He felt that he would never be able to achieve his goal of becoming a law professor even after getting an LLM from a better school. It says something that even ULV won't hire their own grads as professors (there are a few token exceptions) I finished top 3 (out of a whopping 30 people in our evening class) for the first semester and I would likely have quit my job and tried to transfer out had I decided to stay with law school. For anyone else with my situation, you should know that most schools will not give scholarships for transfer students. So, even though I would have gotten at least a partial scholarship at Loyola as a 1L, I would have gotten nothing as a transfer.

As far as accreditation, when I decided to enroll, I was convinced that they would get their ABA accreditation. The incoming classes have gotten progressively better since 2006 and you will find several people in your class who chose the school over schools like Loyola and San Diego because of family or work constraints or because of the scholarships. However, just before the ABA came to visit us our bar passage rate came in at something like 30%. This seemed to send the faculty and administration into panic mode. One of my professors spent an hour explaining to us why it was OK because our average passage rate over the last X years was where it needed to be. He then went on to say that accreditation is pointless anyway because they require things like "poetry and the law" which we won't need because we will be practicing attorneys and not academics. My crim law professor said basically the same thing. She was a visiting scholar at Yale before coming to ULV (even though she made it sound as though she were a tenure track professor there.) She made sure to let us know how noble she was to be slumming it with us because we weren't going to be Senators or Presidents, we were going to be working "in the trenches."

I have just been rambling on here, but my general point is that if you decide to go there, you will not be surrounded by idiots (although there are a few of them), it will not be impossible to transfer out or impossible to get a job after graduation. You must be realistic, though. It will not be as academically engaging as going to UCLA; they treat law school as a vocational school so don't expect to learn about philosophy of law or some such crap. People will always judge you as being "not good enough" to get into a better school when they find out you attended there. If you want to work as an attorney, you either need to be ready to strike out on your own or be toward the top of the class and go for a government position (this is what my goal would have been with a law degree).

Good Luck