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I ask this to those considering transferring because you obviously figured out how to do very well in your 1L year. I have heard conflicting things about doing well from those that do well versus those that don't, so I would appreciate the perspective of those that did well enough to consider transferring.

First, I know that no one should go to a certain school planning on transferring. My cycle is going okay thus far, but I'm probably going to end up at a T2 in the state that I want to practice in. So if I don't transfer, I'm still happy with where I'll be at.

That said, I have a few questions:

1. Are grades really that arbitrary? I know that they have to be to some extent because of the curve, but is it really just a crapshoot between median and top 15%?

2. Did you feel like you studied more, or at least more effectively than your classmates?

3. If not any of those things, what did you feel differentiated you from your peers, or did you feel like it was just luck?

4. Do you have any strategies that you could recommend for those that would like to excel in school?

I'm not asking this strictly because of transferring. Like I said, I'd be happy graduating from the school I'll likely attend. But I don't want to be median, I would like to excel. Any kind of edge I can get would be appreciated.

Disclaimer: I'm not a gunner, at least as defined within TLS. I hardly ever talk in class, I don't really like study groups, and I'm an excellent test taker thus far in my scholarly career.

kswiss wrote: Disclaimer: I'm [strike]not[/strike] a gunner, [strike]at least as defined within TLS. I hardly ever talk in class, I don't really like study groups, and I'm an excellent test taker thus far in my scholarly career.[/strike] I'm also really good at life and want to make sure continue my awesomeness in law school. Teach me your ways!

FTFY.

Sorry dood. This is one of the most gunner posts I've seen on here.

xferAlt wrote:

kswiss wrote: Disclaimer: I'm [strike]not[/strike] a gunner, [strike]at least as defined within TLS. I hardly ever talk in class, I don't really like study groups, and I'm an excellent test taker thus far in my scholarly career.[/strike] I'm also really good at life and want to make sure continue my awesomeness in law school. Teach me your ways!

FTFY.

Sorry dood. [strike]This is one of the most gunner posts I've seen on here.[/strike] I'm a fuckhole.

Thank you for your on topic response.

kswiss wrote:I ask this to those considering transferring because you obviously figured out how to do very well in your 1L year. I have heard conflicting things about doing well from those that do well versus those that don't, so I would appreciate the perspective of those that did well enough to consider transferring.

First, I know that no one should go to a certain school planning on transferring. My cycle is going okay thus far, but I'm probably going to end up at a T2 in the state that I want to practice in. So if I don't transfer, I'm still happy with where I'll be at.

That said, I have a few questions:

1. Are grades really that arbitrary? I know that they have to be to some extent because of the curve, but is it really just a crapshoot between median and top 15%?

2. Did you feel like you studied more, or at least more effectively than your classmates?

3. If not any of those things, what did you feel differentiated you from your peers, or did you feel like it was just luck?

4. Do you have any strategies that you could recommend for those that would like to excel in school?

I'm not asking this strictly because of transferring. Like I said, I'd be happy graduating from the school I'll likely attend. But I don't want to be median, I would like to excel. Any kind of edge I can get would be appreciated.

Disclaimer: I'm not a gunner, at least as defined within TLS. I hardly ever talk in class, I don't really like study groups, and I'm an excellent test taker thus far in my scholarly career.

1. Grades are not arbitrary. Once you get to the top of the curve only a few points can make the difference between the top score and an A-, but from the top 15% mark and median, there will be a HUGE disparity in the quality of the answers. The arbitrariness comes from the difference between top 10% and top 1%, because those students are likely spotting the same issues. It comes down to how well you know the prof and can tailor your answers to his style. By not missing easy things like style and format that the prof prefers you can still separate yourself quite a bit at the top.

2. I felt like I studied at least as much as the next guy but I'm sure some people put in more hours. I had a great study group to bounce ideas off of which was very helpful because we all could get immediate answers to our questions, not have to mull over it until class to ask. Everyone is lost during the 1st semester, just remember its all about the final and study how your comfortable doing it. I read TLS and knew it was all about the final from the beginning and thats what I focused on.

3. I talked to my profs a lot outside of class. I made a serious effort to get to know them and try to understand their preferred writing styles and formats. Initially I wanted to find out their policy perspectives and argue towards them on the final but that opportunity did not present itself as the finals were all law to facts without much chance (time) for policy.

4. Outline early, condense at the end (ideally 10-15 pages), memorize to a point you can recite it verbatim verbally, be prepared for class, office hours. Remember you want to "peak" for the final so mentally and physically prepare for those 3 hours.

kswiss wrote:. 1. Grades are not arbitrary. Once you get to the top of the curve only a few points can make the difference between the top score and an A-, but from the top 15% mark and median, there will be a HUGE disparity in the quality of the answers. The arbitrariness comes from the difference between top 10% and top 1%, because those students are likely spotting the same issues. It comes down to how well you know the prof and can tailor your answers to his style. By not missing easy things like style and format that the prof prefers you can still separate yourself quite a bit at the top.

2. I felt like I studied at least as much as the next guy but I'm sure some people put in more hours. I had a great study group to bounce ideas off of which was very helpful because we all could get immediate answers to our questions, not have to mull over it until class to ask. Everyone is lost during the 1st semester, just remember its all about the final and study how your comfortable doing it. I read TLS and knew it was all about the final from the beginning and thats what I focused on.

3. I talked to my profs a lot outside of class. I made a serious effort to get to know them and try to understand their preferred writing styles and formats. Initially I wanted to find out their policy perspectives and argue towards them on the final but that opportunity did not present itself as the finals were all law to facts without much chance (time) for policy.

4. Outline early, condense at the end (ideally 10-15 pages), memorize to a point you can recite it verbatim verbally, be prepared for class, office hours. Remember you want to "peak" for the final so mentally and physically prepare for those 3 hours.

Thanks for this.

a good start might be to learn the meaning of the word "from"

JPU wrote:

kswiss wrote:I ask this to those considering transferring because you obviously figured out how to do very well in your 1L year. I have heard conflicting things about doing well from those that do well versus those that don't, so I would appreciate the perspective of those that did well enough to consider transferring.

First, I know that no one should go to a certain school planning on transferring. My cycle is going okay thus far, but I'm probably going to end up at a T2 in the state that I want to practice in. So if I don't transfer, I'm still happy with where I'll be at.

That said, I have a few questions:

1. Are grades really that arbitrary? I know that they have to be to some extent because of the curve, but is it really just a crapshoot between median and top 15%?

2. Did you feel like you studied more, or at least more effectively than your classmates?

3. If not any of those things, what did you feel differentiated you from your peers, or did you feel like it was just luck?

4. Do you have any strategies that you could recommend for those that would like to excel in school?

I'm not asking this strictly because of transferring. Like I said, I'd be happy graduating from the school I'll likely attend. But I don't want to be median, I would like to excel. Any kind of edge I can get would be appreciated.

Disclaimer: I'm not a gunner, at least as defined within TLS. I hardly ever talk in class, I don't really like study groups, and I'm an excellent test taker thus far in my scholarly career.

1. Grades are not arbitrary. Once you get to the top of the curve only a few points can make the difference between the top score and an A-, but from the top 15% mark and median, there will be a HUGE disparity in the quality of the answers. The arbitrariness comes from the difference between top 10% and top 1%, because those students are likely spotting the same issues. It comes down to how well you know the prof and can tailor your answers to his style. By not missing easy things like style and format that the prof prefers you can still separate yourself quite a bit at the top.

2. I felt like I studied at least as much as the next guy but I'm sure some people put in more hours. I had a great study group to bounce ideas off of which was very helpful because we all could get immediate answers to our questions, not have to mull over it until class to ask. Everyone is lost during the 1st semester, just remember its all about the final and study how your comfortable doing it. I read TLS and knew it was all about the final from the beginning and thats what I focused on.

3. I talked to my profs a lot outside of class. I made a serious effort to get to know them and try to understand their preferred writing styles and formats. Initially I wanted to find out their policy perspectives and argue towards them on the final but that opportunity did not present itself as the finals were all law to facts without much chance (time) for policy.

4. Outline early, condense at the end (ideally 10-15 pages), memorize to a point you can recite it verbatim verbally, be prepared for class, office hours. Remember you want to "peak" for the final so mentally and physically prepare for those 3 hours.

TITCR. The whole "grades are arbitrary" thing is a myth for the most part. Sure, it may be "arbitrary" w/in a few percentage points, but you have to understand that this is spread across many classes and those at the top did well in mostly all of their classes.

I studied about as much and probably a little less than about half the class, I'd say. I tried to use my time to study for the final, not study the intricacies of cases or trying to look up crazy far out cases to argue in my memo.

neskerdoo wrote:a good start might be to learn the meaning of the word "from"

Holy shit. I just caught that. There are certain words that I completely screw up because I can type them fast. Like typing dyslexia.

(I say holy shit because it's Sunday and I'm from a religious family.)

kswiss wrote:

neskerdoo wrote:a good start might be to learn the meaning of the word "from"

Holy shit. I just caught that. There are certain words that I completely screw up because I can type them fast. Like typing dyslexia.

(I say holy shit because it's Sunday and I'm from a religious family.)

lolwut?

Also, experience tells me people who put disclaimers on things are gunners. I still call flame.

kswiss wrote: But I don't want to be median, I would like to excel. Any kind of edge I can get would be appreciated.

Disclaimer: I'm not a gunner...

Srsly, embrace your gunner tendencies and do well in law school.

I, the OP, am a gunner.

I don't know why I put a disclaimer. I do want to do well in law school, and I don't see how that can be seen as a negative quality. I'm not one of the annoying people that everyone knows are planning on transferring or that I think my school is below me, because I don't even plan on transferring. If I happen to have a great 1L year I'll consider it, but I'll probably have a rough time convincing my wife to uproot herself once again.

I just get sick of everyone saying that you can't depend on being in the top of the class. It seems that 1. its common sense. And 2. the people who are in the top of their class in UG are probably the same ones at the top of their class in LS.

I'm totally not a flame. In reality I'm an idiot 0L that is about to spend 70k on LS, and I want to make sure that I have every advantage available so I can have a good job when I graduate. Probably the same as you and 90% of the people on this site.

The holy shit thing was a joke. I'm totally agnostic.

kswiss wrote:I, the OP, am a gunner.

I don't know why I put a disclaimer. I do want to do well in law school, and I don't see how that can be seen as a negative quality. I'm not one of the annoying people that everyone knows are planning on transferring or that I think my school is below me, because I don't even plan on transferring. If I happen to have a great 1L year I'll consider it, but I'll probably have a rough time convincing my wife to uproot herself once again.

I just get sick of everyone saying that you can't depend on being in the top of the class. It seems that 1. its common sense. And 2. the people who are in the top of their class in UG are probably the same ones at the top of their class in LS.

I'm totally not a flame. In reality I'm an idiot 0L that is about to spend 70k on LS, and I want to make sure that I have every advantage available so I can have a good job when I graduate. Probably the same as you and 90% of the people on this site.

The holy shit thing was a joke. I'm totally agnostic.

There are literally a million things wrong with the bolded statement. For starters, as someone who is first in their class at a T2, I can tell you that I barely graduated with a 3.0 in college and my LSAC gpa was like 2.7. Without going on and on why this just isn't right, just think about the nature of law school. Everything is so condensed and basically everyone is smart. The forced curve is unlike anything any undergrad student has ever experienced. In UG, everyone can get A's if everyone does well. In law school 90% of the people don't get A's. That is just a fact. I am willing to be that out of the remaining 80%, AT LEAST half were at the top of their UG class or did very well. I could go on for hours ranting on how terrible of an assumption/statement that is but I'll just let you figure it out for yourself.

Actually, I just mis-stated what my assumption was. Looking back that was a bad way of putting it, because like you say, its probably not true.

What I mean is that whoever finds the correct nexus between hard-work/natural ability will rise to the top. Any competitive class I've been in (the top level classes in my major have had some forced curves, but none like LS) has shown that the smarter/harder working people usually outperform people. I obviously can't speak from specific experience.

BTW, I'm in a similar situation. I have a 2.5 UGPA (though my institutional GPA for my college career is 3.74) because of the arbitrary methods that LSAC uses to assign punitive grades. But I can think of specific classes where people were competing for grades where I realized that I had just figured it out. That said, about half of the kids in those classes were idiots, so I've never been anywhere near the level of competition I will see in LS. My LSAT (170) is 12 points above the median at the school I will likely attend, so hopefully its predictive qualities bode somewhat well for me.

kswiss wrote:Actually, I just mis-stated what my assumption was. Looking back that was a bad way of putting it, because like you say, its probably not true.

What I mean is that whoever finds the correct nexus between hard-work/natural ability will rise to the top. Any competitive class I've been in (the top level classes in my major have had some forced curves, but none like LS) has shown that the smarter/harder working people usually outperform people. I obviously can't speak from specific experience.

BTW, I'm in a similar situation. I have a 2.5 UGPA (though my institutional GPA for my college career is 3.74) because of the arbitrary methods that LSAC uses to assign punitive grades. But I can think of specific classes where people were competing for grades where I realized that I had just figured it out. That said, about half of the kids in those classes were idiots, so I've never been anywhere near the level of competition I will see in LS. My LSAT (170) is 12 points above the median at the school I will likely attend, so hopefully its predictive qualities bode somewhat well for me.

That explanation is definitely a more accurate assumption. Your high LSAT is likely somewhat of a predictor for Law School success (why else would law schools rely on it). Still, I got a 159 on my LSAT (top 75th percentile I believe) but still managed to excel in LS.

My LSAT is significantly above the median for my school and also significantly above the 75% and I am first in my section. I really do think the LSAT is the best predictor of 1L success as compared to your classmates. It shows that you "get" how to spot issues and analyze hypos and where the professor is going with questions and also shows that you are able to look past the black letter and see the ambiguities that other lower scorers probably missed.

I did not score anywhere as good as you op, but it's pretty much relative to the school you attend. With that superior of an LSAT score coupled with outworking your classmates, I'd say top 10% is a realistic goal.

If top 10% isn't at least the goal, what's really the point, right? We'll see what happens. Thanks for the info though.

kswiss wrote:If top 10% isn't at least the goal, what's really the point, right? We'll see what happens. Thanks for the info though.

Huh? Are you like offended that I said top 10% instead of #1 or something?

A'nold wrote:

kswiss wrote:If top 10% isn't at least the goal, what's really the point, right? We'll see what happens. Thanks for the info though.

Huh? Are you like offended that I said top 10% instead of #1 or something?

Hah. Huge misunderstanding! I really appreciate your help. In no way did I mean that to be sarcastic.

A'nold wrote:My LSAT is significantly above the median for my school and also significantly above the 75% and I am first in my section. I really do think the LSAT is the best predictor of 1L success as compared to your classmates. It shows that you "get" how to spot issues and analyze hypos and where the professor is going with questions and also shows that you are able to look past the black letter and see the ambiguities that other lower scorers probably missed.

Top of my class, bottom of the LSAT pool at my school. Suck it, hypothesis! Anything your anecdote can do my anecdote can do better

Dude. you have an insane amount of posts. Indeed the Yoda of TLS.

Also: I agree. This thread was a bad idea. Fail on my part. I'll keep to myself from now on.

disco_barred wrote:

A'nold wrote:My LSAT is significantly above the median for my school and also significantly above the 75% and I am first in my section. I really do think the LSAT is the best predictor of 1L success as compared to your classmates. It shows that you "get" how to spot issues and analyze hypos and where the professor is going with questions and also shows that you are able to look past the black letter and see the ambiguities that other lower scorers probably missed.

Top of my class, bottom of the LSAT pool at my school. Suck it, hypothesis! Anything your anecdote can do my anecdote can do better

Oh yeah? Well, I scored a 178 on the LSAT and the school median is a 123......my anecdote ftw!

kswiss wrote:

A'nold wrote:

kswiss wrote:If top 10% isn't at least the goal, what's really the point, right? We'll see what happens. Thanks for the info though.

Huh? Are you like offended that I said top 10% instead of #1 or something?

Hah. Huge misunderstanding! I really appreciate your help. In no way did I mean that to be sarcastic.

No, it's all good man, I was just joking myself. Actually, I think it shows that you have decent ambition and a cleverness about you to start a thread like this in the transfer forum. Who else better to ask than a bunch of 1L's who are at or near the top of their class?