Top Law Schools

Hello all,

I am hoping to get some feedback regarding whether I should transfer or not. I appreciate all the insights that you guys give. This board was invaluble to my success in law school (though not to my success on the LSAT because I did not know about TLS yet...!)

here is my situation.

I go to a school in the 60's. First semester I had a 4.0, and CALI'd 4 out of 5 classes. I have a full tuition scholarship at my current school. I am not quite sure what I want to do with my career. I like the town that I go to school in but also want to have some flexibility with where I can look for a job. My former job was a huge grind and a am split on whether I want to take a big law job. (I really want to be a litigator and have an opportunity to work in the courtroom, def not a paper pusher that sits behind a desk).

So I ask the TLS community:

1. What do you think my chances are at these top-14 schools

YLS
HLS
SLS
CLS
NYU
CAL
Chicago
NW
Cornell
GULC
UCLA


1b. Do any of these schools have early action, if so are they binding?


2. If accepted to any of these schools, would you forgo a full tuition scholarship to pay sticker??

3. Any other insights or opinions.



Good luck to everyone in the second semester!!

(Flame?)

If you're that brilliant you should already know (through research on this board alone) that with those stats you're probably in at Chicago and Georgetown (ED schools) and could get acceptance to all the others, possibly excluding YLS/SLS, if you can back up those grades second semester.

dt15 wrote:(Flame?)

If you're that brilliant you should already know (through research on this board alone) that with those stats you're probably in at Chicago and Georgetown (ED schools) and could get acceptance to all the others, possibly excluding YLS/SLS, if you can back up those grades second semester.

Def not a flame!!

I am trying to get some board insight on whether to pay sticker and give up a scholarship etc. Greater advantages for clerkships etc.!


Also, since there is no calculator I was hoping that people could share some insights on my chances (either percentage or none, slim, small, 50/50, good, great...)

Its annoying how sensitive this boards gets to flames at time.

tricky

Wait until after the spring grades come in. Chicago ED is binding, and unless you have some compelling reason to go there, I would wait. GULC EA also would seem to be a waste of time and money since you can do top 10 (most likely NYU or CLS, large transfer classes of 40-60 per year) if you maintain or only fall a little bit. Unless you have some compelling reason to attend UC or GULC and would be comfortable paying sticker there in this economy (for me, I wasn't comfortable paying sticker at GULC), I would wait to apply until after the spring.

H is going to be most likely if you keep it up. They took about 5 or 6 people from schools ranked in the 60's this year, including 3 from the same school. S and Y are no go since they don't seem to take anyone from the 60's (regardless of if you are #1 in the class or not) and their transfer classes are usually 10-12 people.

Get some recs sooner rather than later if you know this is something you want to do. Basically it comes down to whether you want to take on the debt or not. If you are top 1% at your current school or transfer to a top 5, chances are you will come out fine either way. Just depends how much money it is worth to you, what your long term plans are, and where your current school places.

C'mon man, what happened with that 5th class?

RonSantoRules wrote:Wait until after the spring grades come in. Chicago ED is binding, and unless you have some compelling reason to go there, I would wait. GULC EA also would seem to be a waste of time and money since you can do top 10 (most likely NYU or CLS, large transfer classes of 40-60 per year) if you maintain or only fall a little bit. Unless you have some compelling reason to attend UC or GULC and would be comfortable paying sticker there in this economy (for me, I wasn't comfortable paying sticker at GULC), I would wait to apply until after the spring.

H is going to be most likely if you keep it up. They took about 5 or 6 people from schools ranked in the 60's this year, including 3 from the same school. S and Y are no go since they don't seem to take anyone from the 60's (regardless of if you are #1 in the class or not) and their transfer classes are usually 10-12 people.

Get some recs sooner rather than later if you know this is something you want to do. Basically it comes down to whether you want to take on the debt or not. If you are top 1% at your current school or transfer to a top 5, chances are you will come out fine either way. Just depends how much money it is worth to you, what your long term plans are, and where your current school places.

You are right that it comes down to debt for me. I have no huge desire to go to Chicago. I know that it is a great school but for some reason Chicago does get me excited.

What do you think my chances are at Columbia and NYU and Harvard in these two situations -

1. A repeat performence of perfect grades and a couple of perfect classes

2. Slight drop in grades, maybe an A- or B+ (still considering that I am ranked #1 in the class)

trickydicky wrote:

RonSantoRules wrote:Wait until after the spring grades come in. Chicago ED is binding, and unless you have some compelling reason to go there, I would wait. GULC EA also would seem to be a waste of time and money since you can do top 10 (most likely NYU or CLS, large transfer classes of 40-60 per year) if you maintain or only fall a little bit. Unless you have some compelling reason to attend UC or GULC and would be comfortable paying sticker there in this economy (for me, I wasn't comfortable paying sticker at GULC), I would wait to apply until after the spring.

H is going to be most likely if you keep it up. They took about 5 or 6 people from schools ranked in the 60's this year, including 3 from the same school. S and Y are no go since they don't seem to take anyone from the 60's (regardless of if you are #1 in the class or not) and their transfer classes are usually 10-12 people.

Get some recs sooner rather than later if you know this is something you want to do. Basically it comes down to whether you want to take on the debt or not. If you are top 1% at your current school or transfer to a top 5, chances are you will come out fine either way. Just depends how much money it is worth to you, what your long term plans are, and where your current school places.

You are right that it comes down to debt for me. I have no huge desire to go to Chicago. I know that it is a great school but for some reason Chicago does get me excited.

What do you think my chances are at Columbia and NYU and Harvard in these two situations -

1. A repeat performence of perfect grades and a couple of perfect classes

2. Slight drop in grades, maybe an A- or B+ (still considering that I am ranked #1 in the class)

I am no expert and simply basing this off #s I've read in the past few days, but under 1 I think you are in at NYU and Columbia with a decent shot at Harvard.

Under #2 you are probably still in at NYU and/or Columbia I would think.

betasteve wrote: All that being said, you'd be crazy not to apply to all of them, unless you absolutely don't have the cash.

borrow it

trickydicky wrote:Hello all,

I am hoping to get some feedback regarding whether I should transfer or not. I appreciate all the insights that you guys give. This board was invaluble to my success in law school (though not to my success on the LSAT because I did not know about TLS yet...!)

here is my situation.

I go to a school in the 60's. First semester I had a 4.0, and CALI'd 4 out of 5 classes. I have a full tuition scholarship at my current school. I am not quite sure what I want to do with my career. I like the town that I go to school in but also want to have some flexibility with where I can look for a job. My former job was a huge grind and a am split on whether I want to take a big law job. (I really want to be a litigator and have an opportunity to work in the courtroom, def not a paper pusher that sits behind a desk).

So I ask the TLS community:

1. What do you think my chances are at these top-14 schools

YLS
HLS
SLS
CLS
NYU
CAL
Chicago
NW
Cornell
GULC
UCLA


1b. Do any of these schools have early action, if so are they binding?


2. If accepted to any of these schools, would you forgo a full tuition scholarship to pay sticker??

3. Any other insights or opinions.



Good luck to everyone in the second semester!!

N/m

betasteve wrote:My guess is that you are in below the trinity no matter what... if you get another 4.0, I think the entire trinity is *somewhat* open, and anything less 4.0 H remains the best of those three in terms of chances.

All that being said, you'd be crazy not to apply to all of them, unless you absolutely don't have the cash.

as annoying as it is to drop all the money on apps, I think that it is worth it. I think that even a 10% chance warrants firing off an app.

trickydicky wrote:

betasteve wrote:My guess is that you are in below the trinity no matter what... if you get another 4.0, I think the entire trinity is *somewhat* open, and anything less 4.0 H remains the best of those three in terms of chances.

All that being said, you'd be crazy not to apply to all of them, unless you absolutely don't have the cash.

as annoying as it is to drop all the money on apps, I think that it is worth it. I think that even a 10% chance warrants firing off an app.

For me, it's a purely EV (expected value) calculation. As long as the product of your chance of acceptance and the 'value' of a school's education exceeds the cost of the application, you're fine. That is, if a YLS education will yield let's say $100,000 more than your current school (factoring in class rank and whatnot), then as long as your chance of acceptance at YLS exceeds .01% (assuming a $100 transfer app fee), you're fine. Basically, there's no reason not to apply.

apper123 wrote:

betasteve wrote: All that being said, you'd be crazy not to apply to all of them, unless you absolutely don't have the cash.

borrow it

TITCR.

I am going to blanket the top 14 I think.



I am crazy to think that something like Chicago or Columbia might not be worth transferring from my current school. FYI, I like the town that I go to school in but I have no ties to it.

trickydicky wrote: I am crazy to think that something like Chicago or Columbia might not be worth transferring from my current school. FYI, I like the town that I go to school in but I have no ties to it.

I don't think so. I was in the same situation as you (full tuition scholly, though at a little higher ranked school) and having go into both schools (Chicago and Columbia), I didn't feel 100% comfortable paying sticker price at either school (especially since Columbia will end up costing you roughly 75K per year once you factor in cost of living, which would have been more than my debt load for 3 years in living expenses if I had stayed at my previous school). Honestly, if you end up #1 in your class, even at a school ranked in the 60's, chances are you will be able to get a Big Law job for 2L year regardless and might end up in roughly the same place (salary wise at least) with the same degree. There are some people on L. Rev. at schools ranked in the 60's who won't get Big Law ITE like they usually would, but if you are #1, I find it hard to envision a scenario where a big firm wouldn't hire you (although I could be wrong, but it seems somewhat unlikely).

However, you should consider long term. If you want to go into politics, academia, or maybe something outside of law where a Harvard/Yale/Stanford degree might carry significant weight with non-legal types, then paying sticker might be worth it. Transferring is not without its costs (giving up law review, losing 1L network of friends, erasing your previous GPA, losing contacts with professors which might hurt for clerkship applications) and you're not crazy for thinking those schools might not be worth it. But again, think long term and not short term. You can't change the name on your degree, but if you just want Big Law and don't really care about being V50, V10, or working in a certain location that is tough to break into (e.g., DC firms), then transferring might not be worth it.

apper123 wrote:

betasteve wrote: All that being said, you'd be crazy not to apply to all of them, unless you absolutely don't have the cash.

borrow it

I don't think you have a good shot at either Stanford or Yale, but Harvard is a strong possibility if you repeat. This is based on 2 things: (1) size of the transfer class (Y and S take 10-12 each year, while H took nearly 40 this year) and the rank of your school. Although Transferapps is the only real source for data points, there are clear trends such that 1L class rank and your school's USNWR ranking seem to be the most heavily weighted factors. Yale usually only takes top 10%/Law Review kids from T14 schools, and Stanford seems to be only slightly less picky. A perusal of the Transferapps database shows that in 2007 the #1 kid from the #47 ranked school got in to Yale (not sure what school he/she came from, maybe SMU??) and in 2008 the #1 kid from George Mason got in to Yale (but he authored a law review article with a professor and had some other pretty ridiculous soft factors that seemed to matter).

trickydicky wrote:I am going to blanket the top 14 I think.

If money is really an issue, don't waste your money on the whole T14. Where do you want to end up? UVA/Cornell/GULC are wastes of money for you (assuming repeat performance) and maybe even Chicago/Michigan/NU (you said Chicago doesn't do it for you, so I am assuming you don't want to go to school in the Midwest). That leaves Penn (not listed on your schools for consideration, but it could be a "safety" school, if there is such a thing) and then Berkeley (large transfer class, may or may not be worth depending on debt aversion and where you want to be since I think tuition will be north of 50K next year, poster ARROW on here is a 2L transfer there and maybe could give more insight on the place), NYU/CLS (great shot at both of these and probably in even with a slight drop if you are still within the top 5%), and the Trinity (see above discussion).

I made the mistake of applying to a lot of schools I wasn't comfortable paying sticker at because I thought I might not get in to any schools and wanted to make sure I had options. I probably wasted about $300 applying to schools I wasn't serious about (I didn't want to be on the West Coast but applied to both Berkeley and Stanford, although I just wanted to see if I would get into SLS). That money would have came in handy when I had to pay about $1500 to move halfway across the country in August to rent a Uhaul, pay a deposit on my new apartment, and for the storage facility for the summer (didn't sign a new lease at old school and just put everything in storage). It costs about $90 per application, assuming a $70-75 app fee and the $12 LSAC fee for every online application.

trickydicky wrote:
What do you think my chances are at Columbia and NYU and Harvard in these two situations -

1. A repeat performence of perfect grades and a couple of perfect classes

2. Slight drop in grades, maybe an A- or B+ (still considering that I am ranked #1 in the class)

#1 - You have a great shot at Harvard. definitely in at CLS and NYU.
#2 - Still a shot at Harvard (considering you Cali'd all the classes), but it comes down to class rank. It is conceivable you could still finish #1 with a B+ if your school grades on a 4.3 scale for A+'s.

BTW, congrats on killing first semester.

What does it mean to CALI?

qwerty wrote:What does it mean to CALI?

First in class.

Inygma wrote:

qwerty wrote:What does it mean to CALI?

First in class.

is it an acronym?

saltoftheearth wrote:

Inygma wrote:

qwerty wrote:What does it mean to CALI?

First in class.

is it an acronym?

CALI is the Center for Computer-Assisted Legal Instruction. They sponsor the CALI awards program, which sets rules that are clearly understandable and translate across different law schools (CALI awards are only given to the highest score in a class, regardless of the grades earned/distributed). Getting a CALI award tells law firms, schools you're transferring to, and anyone else who sees your resume that you were 1st in your class.

OP having 4 CALI awards is going to be impressive on his resume. I think he has a legitimate shot at Y and H, especially if he can repeat next semester.

Just as an aside, I got shot down by a one of the only firms that hires 1L's in this town. They were my only choice for a firm job this year.

thats harsh, tbh with 4 CALIs maybe he feared your eventual takeover and oedipus'd you.