Seton Hall Class of 2013 Forum

[MTal]

School, just like the rest of life, is what you make of it!

Would this be true if the school cost $1 million? At 50k a year + living expenses the full cost of SH is BEYOND exorbitant. Ask yourself, why doesn't Cozen O'connor, the biglaw firm right across the street from SH not even ask for ONE resume or send anyone to interview students at OCI? That alone should tell you that a degree from SH isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

perhaps you should be more thorough in your research. a quick search of the attorney's at Cozen shows that they do, in fact, hire SHU Law graduates. Nice try though. Go somewhere where people will care about your comments.

Aaaaaahahahahahaha!!! If this is how you do research, you're going to make a very poor attorney. If you check Cozen's website, you'll see that they only have FOUR attorneys (out of over 500) who came from Seton Hall...and the last one they hired was back in 2003!!!

[LegalPink]

School, just like the rest of life, is what you make of it!

Would this be true if the school cost $1 million? At 50k a year + living expenses the full cost of SH is BEYOND exorbitant. Ask yourself, why doesn't Cozen O'connor, the biglaw firm right across the street from SH not even ask for ONE resume or send anyone to interview students at OCI? That alone should tell you that a degree from SH isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

perhaps you should be more thorough in your research. a quick search of the attorney's at Cozen shows that they do, in fact, hire SHU Law graduates. Nice try though. Go somewhere where people will care about your comments.

Aaaaaahahahahahaha!!! If this is how you do research, you're going to make a very poor attorney. If you check Cozen's website, you'll see that they only have FOUR attorneys (out of over 500) who came from Seton Hall...and the last one they hired was back in 2003!!!

Oh dear, if you are going to make such assumptions about people then you, my friend, are going to be the poor attorney. Of course I searched their website (and I specifically stated that I checked their website, don't know why you told me to "check their website" when I had already proclaimed that i did so) and of course I saw that there were only 4 and that the most recent was 2003. It doesn't matter how many there were, merely matters that your blanket statement about them "never hiring" SHU law students was incorrect. Like I said before, please go somewhere where people will care what you have to say.

[MTal]

Oh dear, if you are going to make such assumptions about people then you, my friend, are going to be the poor attorney. Of course I searched their website (and I specifically stated that I checked their website, don't know why you told me to "check their website" when I had already proclaimed that i did so) and of course I saw that there were only 4 and that the most recent was 2003. It doesn't matter how many there were, merely matters that your blanket statement about them "never hiring" SHU law students was incorrect. Like I said before, please go somewhere where people will care what you have to say.

Why are you so intent on splitting straws? The last attorney they hired from SH was 7 FUCKING years ago! In employment terms, that's an eternity, ESPECIALLY considering that they are located RIGHT ACROSS THE STREET from SH! Of course it matters how long and how many there were. How does it help current 1L's when by the time the graduate, the last SH hall hired by Cozen was over a decade ago? Not only haven't they hired from SH in SEVEN years, but they haven't even sent anyone to OCI, for even the top 1-3 students. Why would they do this, unless their opinion of SH was that of an absolute gutter diploma mill?

Incidentally, I am not an attorney, I am a stockbroker.

[TTTGrad]

I read about this thread on JD underground today. I feel compelled, out of moral obligation, to comment on this school and in particular the state of the legal market today. I graduated from a Tier 1 law school (although anything outside YHS is considered a TTT these days) almost 15 years ago. I have been a practicing attorney since, having worked in biglaw, in-house counsel and now as a partner in "midlaw." As far back as I can remember, Seton Hall Law's reputation has been that of a third tier toilet. To be fair, it used to be a good school to attend if you wanted to concentrate in health/pharma law. As far as schools in the area go, Seton Hall law falls beneath other highly ranked area schools such as Columbia, Penn, Yale and NYU. Many area practitioners continue to view Seton Hall Law as inferior to other local schools such as Cardozo, Fordham, Brooklyn, St. Johns and even Rutgers (both campuses) despite what the USNWR (which is geared towards college students, not seasoned legal professionals) says. In my opinion, it is criminal what law schools in general charge for tuition these days. When I went to law school, annual tuition was less than $10,000. And during those times, any school in the first tier (e.g., Tulane, UC-Hastings, etc.) and in the lower tiers could place students in biglaw. Today that is not the case anymore (exception: unless you have a relative or connection that has guaranteed you a job). Biglaw is about profit margin and profits per partner ("PPP"). During this recession, Biglaw has downsized dramatically and has outsourced basic document review, discovery and legal drafting work to India and the Phillippines to non-licensed attorneys. Why did Biglaw do this? Two reasons: 1) The ABA recently ruled it was ethically ok to do this so long as the long arm of a licensed attorney in the States could supervise the work; and, 2) cheap labor (you don't have to pay $160K a year per "attorney," you still get to bill the client the same hourly rates, no insurance costs/benefits to employees and cheaper overhead). Remember folks, Biglaw is not in the business of catering to law schools or law students. The bottom line is PPP.

Since early 2009, my firm has received hundreds of unsolicited resumes from T14 grads that have been laid off or deferred. Some of these candidates have impressive law review and GPA stats. Unfortunately, these credentials are useless in midlaw, where a book of business or significant legal experience is paramount to whether you were on moot court or an editor of the International Sports Journal. If top T14 grads cannot find a legal job in this economy, do you really think a law degree from Seton Hall will provide you with a competitive edge? Now many of you I am sure, were probably sold by the employment rate and starting salary figures that are manipulated by law school administrators. Seton Hall for example, states that 94.74% of its 2008 graduating class was employed within 9 months. The problem with this statistic is that the number is self-reported and not verified by an independent audit firm. Recently, it was reported (and you can google this on your own) that law schools misrepresent employment stats for purposes of gaming the USNWR rankings. In Seton Hall's case, do they distinguish between legal and non-legal employment? Whether said employment is paid or unpaid? Take for instance the New Jersey Attorney General's office, which has had a 2 year hiring freeze (NJ is on the brink of bankruptcy). There are many folks competing to work for free at the AG's office. If you are a Seton Hall alum that is working for free at the AG's office or any other place, guess what? You are counted as employed. If your job is temporary, such as document review, you are also counted as employed. And what if you cannot find legal employment and have to work in the hardware section at Home Depot? You are part of the 90+% employed. So you see, the law school administrators massage the stats and make them as vague as possible with the message that "numbers don't lie." Sure, but the numbers here don't tell the complete and accurate picture. Don't take my word for it. If you are seriously considering wasting $45K a year in tuition plus $20K in cost of attendance per year at this school, at least talk to a recent Seton Hall law grad (class of 2009 or 2010) and ask how well they are doing. I am sure the school has a handful of hand picked students/shills and alumni that they parade to prospective students as "success" stories that can be emulated. I am sure Seton Hall has many fine attorneys that are practicing law. However, it is a miniscule number compared to the overall number of graduates it dumps on the already overly saturated legal market every year. I implore you to speak to a recent grad, someone that is not in the top percent of their class to get an accurate guage of how the legal market is receptive of a Seton Hall law degree. Or better yet, ask these questions to your dean, of course when he is not too busy serving in the dual capacity as the Athletic Director trying to revive the weak college Pirates basketball program.

If you ask me, you are better off gambling $150K in Vegas than investing it in a Seton Hall law degree. Why? Well for starters you can discharge gambling debt in bankruptcy proceedings. Student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy and many years ago Seton Hall unsuccessfully tried to argue that the law school tuition itself was non-dischargeable in bankruptcy. See In re Van Ess, 186 B.R. 375 (Bankr. D.N.J. 1994). When I went to law school, the average student loan debt for 7 years was $30K. People could buy homes, live a nice lifestyle and legal jobs were in abundance. That is not the case today. Many of you have no idea what it is like to deal with six figure non-dischargeable student loan debt (thanks to in-school forebearance). Wait until you are out 6 months and Sallie Mae starts sending you monthly loving invoices. In order to properly service six figure student loan debt, you must be earning six figures yourself. Unless you plan on becoming the mayor of Hoboken (a la Michael Cammarano, SHU Law, Class of '02) and take bribes and kickbacks, you likely won't be earning enough to service your debt and live well.

Now I know in this recession times are tough. However, hiding or riding out the recession is not only a coward's way to deal with reality, but also an irresponsible way to tightening the noose around your neck. Don't fall for the law school deans' tired and speculative soundbites (i.e., "the recession is cyclical and has to end," "the economy is turning the corner," "Obama's economic stimulus is re-galvanizing the legal sector," "the legal market is starting to see green shoots and by the time you graduate demand for young attorneys will soar"). These are all lies. Don't believe me? Go on the National Law Journal and see how many biglaw firms are re-deferring the Class of '09 for a second year or rescinding job offers outright. Folks, this recession is not going away any time soon and when it does, the legal jobs aren't coming back.

Lastly, I want to turn to the often talked about subject of living in the urban shangri la known as Newark. Seton Hall Law students often choose to live in 1180 Raymond or the Union Building. 1180 is a nice buidling that was renovated a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, the realty group that owns the building is about to default on a construction loan and may be forced into bankruptcy proceedings. But don't take my word for it. Google it or search for the story as it was reported months ago by the New Jersey Star Ledger. Or see:

http://www.nj.com/news/local/index.ssf/ ... s_ren.html

As for the Union Building, for those that don't know, it is adjacent to the infamous Beaver Street alley. Beaver Street has a distinguishing strong odor of urine and during the night, rats the size of terriers can be seen scurrying and foraging for food or anything that moves. Beaver Street has also been the crime scene to many violent offenses such as rape, robbery and homicide. In fact, Eminem recently shot a music video for a song appropriately titled "I am Not Afraid" there because the producers of the video wanted to capture a "dangerous environment" on camera. Again, google "beaver street," "newark" and crime. Unless you have a red belt in jiu jitsu or are licensed to carry a firearm, living in Newark can be lethal to your health.

In sum, I am not asking that you not attend Seton Hall law school. You are adults and it is only your life. However, if this is the very best law school you could get into, in this economy, you won't cut it as a lawyer (my opinion after nearly 15 years in this business). At a minimum, you should research and investigate this school better before making a life altering decision that will severely and adversely impact you for the rest of your natural life. If you decide to go to this school and leverage your future out for a Seton Hall JD, you will have no one to blame but yourself as you have been warned. Folks, "caveat emptor" is not a fancy latin term or words of art. Heed them. Here are some helpful links (some light) that will shed light on Seton Hall Law and the "prestige" it enjoys.

http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/20 ... rsity.html

(read the comments)

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[inSouthAmerica]

these movies were hilarious.

[SteelReserve]

That post was fantastic. But you should post it elsewhere and make it a little more general since most of the post applies to the other 100/150 or so private non-T14 law schools.

I'm almost starting to feel bad for SHU since it takes the brunt of internet criticism even though it is only equally as culpable as the other 100/150 private TTTs.

[Beware]

If T14 students are being given "exclusive" opportunities to temp (that is, document review), and still have enormous unemployment rates (not reflected in the official figures), then just imagine how bad it is for Seton Hall grads.

If I were you guys, I would ask for a refund on your tuition deposit.

The school should be shut down. It's a scam.

[Bostonlawyer]

I'm sorry, but paying $41,000 a year to attend Seton Hall Law School in this market is pure insanity.

There has been a seismic change in the structure of law.

I graduated cum laude from a T35 school in 2006. I clerked for a year, work in a niche area, have been published in the DRI and ABA, and it's very hard to even get a single interview to lateral out. God knows how hard it is for people with no experience.

I am very aggressive with my loans, do not out at weekends to clubs or bars, rarely eat out, have no car....etc....I live on about $500 a month after all necessaries are paid, loans, rent, bills etc.....are you prepared to do that??? Live very very frugally?? Because that's what it is going to take for many years after graduation...especially if you want to get married, buy a house and have kids.

I understand people don't like "negative" (I would say realistic) people raining on their parade. Of corse some of you have rattled off some SHU law school grads who are doing well...but every law school has those. I'm sure they are advertised on SHU's website as well....oh look they are !!! "Partner Biglaw"...Associate fish and richardson" etc......

When you buy anything something, you usually ask yourself, whether it's a house, car or vacation, "Is it worth the price they are asking?"

One has to ask, why don't people ask this when paying $123,000 in tuition alone for SHU law school...it's pure insanity.

The sad thing is that in 2013, many of you will learn the hard way.

[AffirmativeOffense]

That was one of the best posts I've seen on here in a while. I was the first to coin this phrase years ago, and I'll say it again: go t14, go state, or don't go to law school unless you get a full ride. The market is indescribably bad + there has been a big change in legal services. Unless you fit into one of the aforementioned categories, hold off going to law school until the law schools have readjusted their tuition to reflect reality.

[Beware]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =121274655

New Jersey lawyers are now working for free.

[theghostofDrewTate]

The anti-Seton Hall guy is probably the adminstration's biggest ally. Sure, he might dissuade a handful of kids from going, but for every kid he talks out of going, there are 25 more who have the capacity to sign the loan docs to pay their tuition. And now in a few years when someone tries to sue SHU for its potentially misleading employment statistics, SHU's second line of defense (after trying to say the numbers are true) will be a truth on the market defense - anti SHU guy has posted all over the internet about the employment statistics therefore anyone going to SHU right now should be on reasonable notice that reliance on the employment statistics is not reasonable.

[chicoalto0649]

I love all these HATERS! I'm going to SETON HALL UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL! You can keep hating on it but that only fuels me to rep it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zsTHY4g2J8

just hope you don't end up like him!

[inSouthAmerica]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U7kuqow3gg

[fakemoney]

Brilliance

[chicoalto0649]

School, just like the rest of life, is what you make of it!

Would this be true if the school cost $1 million? At 50k a year + living expenses the full cost of SH is BEYOND exorbitant. Ask yourself, why doesn't Cozen O'connor, the biglaw firm right across the street from SH not even ask for ONE resume or send anyone to interview students at OCI? That alone should tell you that a degree from SH isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

perhaps you should be more thorough in your research. a quick search of the attorney's at Cozen shows that they do, in fact, hire SHU Law graduates. Nice try though. Go somewhere where people will care about your comments.

Aaaaaahahahahahaha!!! If this is how you do research, you're going to make a very poor attorney. If you check Cozen's website, you'll see that they only have FOUR attorneys (out of over 500) who came from Seton Hall...and the last one they hired was back in 2003!!!

:siggggh: MTal crashing an admitted students board <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

[fakemoney]

(although anything outside YHS is considered a TTT these days)

If you are legitimately trying to get across a serious message, you really should avoid trollish statements like this.

[aPosseAdEsse]

I tend to believe that there are between one (Scott Bullock) and three disgruntled SHU Law grads who regularly create multiple online personalities to trash their law school alma mater, and that TTTgrad (above) is likely one of them. Sure enough, it sounds like these people drew the short straw in the legal rat race, and I genuinely feel bad for them (and the many others who struggle out of many schools, including T14). If they feel like there were misled by their school, I don't blame them for being angry. Further, I don't think everything they say is wrong.

However, their case seems greatly exaggerated when applied with a broad stroke to every future SHU law student. Then the common TLS/JDU/online gloomy denigrate-second-rate-law-schools posters corroborate their message, even though these people likely know little about that specific school, in this case Seton Hall Law (e.g. MTal above).

Does SHU Law have a fairly high sticker price? Yes. Are there several more highly regarded schools in NYC and throughout the country? Yes. But is SHU a bad decision for everyone? Absolutely not. It’s a good law school in New Jersey. Depending on your financial situation, work ethic, familial situation, natural talent, life aspirations, expectations, etc. (and these don’t all have to align perfectly), Seton Hall Law can be a solid institution at which to attain your legal education.

[TTTGrad]

I tend to believe that there are between one (Scott Bullock) and three disgruntled SHU Law grads who regularly create multiple online personalities to trash their law school alma mater, and that TTTgrad (above) is likely one of them. Sure enough, it sounds like these people drew the short straw in the legal rat race, and I genuinely feel bad for them (and the many others who struggle out of many schools, including T14). If they feel like there were misled by their school, I don't blame them for being angry. Further, I don't think everything they say is wrong.

However, their case seems greatly exaggerated when applied with a broad stroke to every future SHU law student. Then the common TLS/JDU/online gloomy denigrate-second-rate-law-schools posters corroborate their message, even though these people likely know little about that specific school, in this case Seton Hall Law (e.g. MTal above).

Does SHU Law have a fairly high sticker price? Yes. Are there several more highly regarded schools in NYC and throughout the country? Yes. But is SHU a bad decision for everyone? Absolutely not. It’s a good law school in New Jersey. Depending on your financial situation, work ethic, familial situation, natural talent, life aspirations, expectations, etc. (and these don’t all have to align perfectly), Seton Hall Law can be a solid institution at which to attain your legal education.

I am not Scott Bullock. Furthermore, I am not a SHU law alum. I think it is laughable that you believe only a handful of people resent SHU law. I have spoken to dozens of SHU law grads that regret their decision to attend SHU law. Granted most of these grads attended within the last 10 years. I also know a few that are successful after toiling in shitlaw for many years. Unfortunately for recent SHU law grads, it is not 1999. Of course some SHU law grads will experience success based upon their connections and whether or not they rank in the top 5% of their class. You cannot argue with a straight face that the risk/return on a SHU law degree is worth the price of attendance unless you are a shill for the school.

[aPosseAdEsse]

O.k., you may not be Scott Bullock. (Though, we cannot know.)

But you admit to lurk JDU where SB propagates his negative publicity of his law school, and you practically bullet his talking points. Like I said, your analysis is not all wrong, and the outspoken disgruntled alums are not all wrong. I did not say that there are only a handful of such people, but I do believe there are only just a few who throw away hours of their day trolling every legal related website to air their hateful baggage.

I do wonder why a supposed ‘partner in “midlaw”’ with 15 years of experience as an attorney is so concerned over a law school that he didn't attend that he is able [and moved to] reply to a online message board post that briefly mentions his screen name within just 20 minutes time.

Even if you are exactly as you claim, which is possible, it’s very difficult to understand what drives you to put down and demoralize future generations of lawyers and their law school in the one place where those people are meant to celebrate their futures and encourage each other.

Even if you are exactly as you claim, such motivation is scornful. You and others who come to rain on another’s parade in the manner that you do cannot be spurred by real altruism. You take a sadistic pleasure in it, for reasons that a psychiatrist could better diagnose. It would simply come across differently if you meant well. A father can be justified in showing his son “tough love,” but that makes little sense between strangers on the internet.

To anyone who has come here to defame this law school: You have no good natured reason to post.

You’re of course free to do as you will, but it speaks more to your character than to those who aspire to launch careers from Seton Hall Law.

[TTTGrad]

You impugn your own credibility when you assume that anyone who criticizes SHU law is a JD underground lurker or Scott Bullock. I happen to read these blogs from time to time for entertainment, pathetic as that may sound (but not as pathetic as the naivete of most TLS posters). However, my original post was made with the purest altruistic intentions, which was to make people THINK before they invested a kings' ransom and three years of their lives in attending this lowly regarded law school. You seem to equate criticism with defamation. Nothing in my original post about SHU law is defamatory as it is based on truth. Why do you think SHU law hasn't sued Scott Bullock for defamation? Because they have no case. I have not actively told people not to attend SHU law. I merely stated that in my professional opinion (having 15 years experience in the legal profession), a SHU law degree is not worth the price tag, not in today's market or ever for that matter. If the current dean of SHU law wanted to dispel the "criticism" or rebut what has been said about SHU law, he should grow a pair and let Pricewaterhouse or an independent third party audit the employment numbers or starting salary stats. You and I know that will never happen as these numbers are gamed, not only by SHU law but most TTTs and probably some T-14s (I am looking at you Duke with your 100% employed at graduation stats). Is SHU law a good option for some? Maybe (i.e., FULL scholarship, concentration in pharma law with hard science background, top 1-3% of class). For the rest, it is a bad investment. As I said before, prospective law students or accepted students should talk to SHU law alums (not the shills on SHU law's website or brochures) who graduated in the past 2 years to guage their employment or career propects.

Nothing personal against the Dean of SHU law but I think it is opprobrious that he accepted the post of Athletic Director (with a pay raise I am sure), which will in essence divert his attention from helping law students from his law school obtain employment opportunities. Talk about throwing your students under the bus for self-aggrandizement.

[starrydecisus]

TTTGrad, dude, leave people alone.

[TTTGrad]

I don't know why I bother. I really hope you kids think HARD about attending Seton Hall LS. I came across this interesting article about summer hires in NJ, which have taken a cut in this recession. Perhaps you should ask your august Dean how many SHU law students comprised the 90 summer associates that were sprinkled across the state. You may also want to ask the Dean to reconcile the median salary of $125K that his school reports with the average salary of $117,832.00 among the "big" NJ firms.

http://www.law.com/jsp/law/careercenter ... 2459054245

[Tautology]

Can we ban this guy already?

[General Tso]

Can we ban this guy already?

He gets banned all the time. His name is Scott Bullock. He is like the Terminator...he won't stop until Seton Hall is dead.

[Fef619]

Those haters out there probably got rejected from SHU.