Top Law Schools

TTTGrad wrote:[strike]To the original poster: Don't bother, your warning will fall on deaf ears.

Although your message is laudable, you are dealing with a generation that has been brainwashed into thinking that a legal career = wealth and success. Kids from Generation Y generally[/strike] I have shit for brains. [strike]I have practiced law for almost 20 years and the current climate from an employer's perspective is quite brutal. These kids have been warned so I won't feel sorry for them as I do for the Classes of 2009 and 2010 (these folks did not have the benefit of knowing that the economy would tank). As a midlaw partner who worked in biglaw and in-house counsel, my opinion is that going to law school these days is a losing proposition unless you go YHS and graduate in the top quarter. The rest of the T14 and TTTs are worthless in my opinion since these kids are not bringing any tangible skills, practical legal experience or a book of business. Since 2009 my firm has received hundreds of resumes from lawyers (laid off and deferred mostly) that have T14, law review, moot court, etc. credentials. These resumes go in the trash bin. If I can't send you in to argue a motion for summary judgment on day 1 or you don't have a portable business of at least $2M, you are of no use to me. Biglaw is currently re-deferring the Class of 2009 in addition to the Class of 2010 (these poor souls will never start) and the bulk of legal work is being outsourced to India and the Philippines to barristers for pennies on the dollar. But hey, these kids have put their deposits down and have swallowed the Dean's rosy outlook about how in 2016 the economy will be booming and demand for lawyers will be at an all-time high. So OP, leave these kids alone and let them learn the hard way.[/strike]

MOD EDIT: spamming your blog in your first post? For shame: this is a yellow card.

This is my first time ever saying this, but this dude is obviously a retarded troll from JDU. He will come back and say something like "You're just saying that because I told you that you wouldn't be wearing Alden shoes to your BIGLAW job!!!". No, it's because the statements you've made here thus far are so incredibly exaggerated and retarded.

...Huh? I don't think you understand what I was trying to say. I'm disagreeing with the idea that a T-14 graduate with law review and moot court experience is worthless to a law firm. My point is that if someone that ridiculously successful is trash to a firm, how in the hell would a top 25% HYS grad magically be anymore useful? My career goals aren't money, either, so I highly doubt I'll ever end up JDU angry that I didn't get biglaw.

I agree with you man. I was talking about TTTgrad. I really shouldn't respond to him but I'm bored at work.

Locke N. Lawded wrote:Actually, bar review whoring pays pretty well.

You typically do need to have a JD and be a licensed attorney just because it's hard to sell something you have never had to endure yourself.

Base pay is $50K with commissions up to an additional $50K. Actually just got a nice commission check for $11K this week.

It's not a bad gig, actually. It's sort of like running your own business. You get to travel to lots of different schools around the country, give away swag, and raffle off iPods. The cons are having to schlep tons of crap around--and competition in this market is fierce.

Those 2008 and 2009 classmates of mine who managed to land jobs--with the exception of the lucky handful who got BigLaw--are all working BigLaw hours doing PI or ID work for less than what I make in base pay.

stintez wrote:

Locke N. Lawded wrote:Actually, bar review whoring pays pretty well.

You typically do need to have a JD and be a licensed attorney just because it's hard to sell something you have never had to endure yourself.

Base pay is $50K with commissions up to an additional $50K. Actually just got a nice commission check for $11K this week.

It's not a bad gig, actually. It's sort of like running your own business. You get to travel to lots of different schools around the country, give away swag, and raffle off iPods. The cons are having to schlep tons of crap around--and competition in this market is fierce.

Those 2008 and 2009 classmates of mine who managed to land jobs--with the exception of the lucky handful who got BigLaw--are all working BigLaw hours doing PI or ID work for less than what I make in base pay.

I love sales how does one get to land a job such as yours?

Tanicius wrote:

stintez wrote:

Locke N. Lawded wrote:Actually, bar review whoring pays pretty well.

You typically do need to have a JD and be a licensed attorney just because it's hard to sell something you have never had to endure yourself.

Base pay is $50K with commissions up to an additional $50K. Actually just got a nice commission check for $11K this week.

It's not a bad gig, actually. It's sort of like running your own business. You get to travel to lots of different schools around the country, give away swag, and raffle off iPods. The cons are having to schlep tons of crap around--and competition in this market is fierce.

Those 2008 and 2009 classmates of mine who managed to land jobs--with the exception of the lucky handful who got BigLaw--are all working BigLaw hours doing PI or ID work for less than what I make in base pay.

I love sales how does one get to land a job such as yours?

You need to go to law school.

Oh, shit.

stintez wrote:

Tanicius wrote:

stintez wrote:

Locke N. Lawded wrote:Actually, bar review whoring pays pretty well.

You typically do need to have a JD and be a licensed attorney just because it's hard to sell something you have never had to endure yourself.

Base pay is $50K with commissions up to an additional $50K. Actually just got a nice commission check for $11K this week.

It's not a bad gig, actually. It's sort of like running your own business. You get to travel to lots of different schools around the country, give away swag, and raffle off iPods. The cons are having to schlep tons of crap around--and competition in this market is fierce.

Those 2008 and 2009 classmates of mine who managed to land jobs--with the exception of the lucky handful who got BigLaw--are all working BigLaw hours doing PI or ID work for less than what I make in base pay.

I love sales how does one get to land a job such as yours?

You need to go to law school.

Oh, shit.

No shit halftard I was talking about after getting bent over by the law school train.

stintez wrote:No shit halftard I was talking about after getting bent over by the law school train.

pjo wrote:I am a TTT grad in that I didn't come from YHS Law and in my opinion all other schools are TTT. I attended a Tier 1 law school (T25 to be specific) during the end of the Golden Age of the legal profession (i.e., your daydreaming version of "models and bottles" days). To the kid who says I have no credibility, I seek no validation from you. My statement is offered for what it is worth. I know you have already made the plunge. Study your ass off, cross your fingers and pray your investment doesn't sour. I hope for my sake I am wrong (re: the economy) but I am a realist and I archived my rose tinted glasses back in the late '90s. If you are in the T14 (excluding YHS) on a full scholarship, I suppose it won't harm you (unless you count the opportunity cost of three years of wages). However, for those paying sticker or are on partial scholarship, my advice is to stick it out for one semester. If your grades are not in the top quarter, you are wasting your time and money continuing on a downward spiral.

Really??? So what would you have done with those three years had you not gone to law school? Serious, I challenge all of these naysayers to offer some constructive advice for once instead of just coming on here and being like "don't go to law school, you'll make more money doing something else" and yet they never say what this "something else" is. please share this secret wisdom that law school applicants, along with the rest of the unemployed in this country must be missing. What is this secret career that has no risk, positive return on investment and job security?

WhoIsJohnGalt wrote:

pjo wrote:I am a TTT grad in that I didn't come from YHS Law and in my opinion all other schools are TTT. I attended a Tier 1 law school (T25 to be specific) during the end of the Golden Age of the legal profession (i.e., your daydreaming version of "models and bottles" days). To the kid who says I have no credibility, I seek no validation from you. My statement is offered for what it is worth. I know you have already made the plunge. Study your ass off, cross your fingers and pray your investment doesn't sour. I hope for my sake I am wrong (re: the economy) but I am a realist and I archived my rose tinted glasses back in the late '90s. If you are in the T14 (excluding YHS) on a full scholarship, I suppose it won't harm you (unless you count the opportunity cost of three years of wages). However, for those paying sticker or are on partial scholarship, my advice is to stick it out for one semester. If your grades are not in the top quarter, you are wasting your time and money continuing on a downward spiral.

Really??? So what would you have done with those three years had you not gone to law school? Serious, I challenge all of these naysayers to offer some constructive advice for once instead of just coming on here and being like "don't go to law school, you'll make more money doing something else" and yet they never say what this "something else" is. please share this secret wisdom that law school applicants, along with the rest of the unemployed in this country must be missing. What is this secret career that has no risk, positive return on investment and job security?

It's obviously tough out there but I think you're looking at it a bit too narrowly. For starters, one thing you could do is not go to law school. That "something else", whatever it is, would result in not incurring +100K in debt. I'm being general but the vast number of people going to school are debt financing and are going to graduate with very few job prospects.

Unemployment for 3 years > Unemployed in 3 years + 100K debt

Again, for some people it will make sense and I'm not going to even try to draw a line to decide where that is.

TTTGrad wrote:To the original poster: Don't bother, your warning will fall on deaf ears.

Although your message is laudable, you are dealing with a generation that has been brainwashed into thinking that a legal career = wealth and success. Kids from Generation Y generally have shit for brains. I have practiced law for almost 20 years and the current climate from an employer's perspective is quite brutal. These kids have been warned so I won't feel sorry for them as I do for the Classes of 2009 and 2010 (these folks did not have the benefit of knowing that the economy would tank). As a midlaw partner who worked in biglaw and in-house counsel, my opinion is that going to law school these days is a losing proposition unless you go YHS and graduate in the top quarter. The rest of the T14 and TTTs are worthless in my opinion since these kids are not bringing any tangible skills, practical legal experience or a book of business. Since 2009 my firm has received hundreds of resumes from lawyers (laid off and deferred mostly) that have T14, law review, moot court, etc. credentials. These resumes go in the trash bin. If I can't send you in to argue a motion for summary judgment on day 1 or you don't have a portable business of at least $2M, you are of no use to me. Biglaw is currently re-deferring the Class of 2009 in addition to the Class of 2010 (these poor souls will never start) and the bulk of legal work is being outsourced to India and the Philippines to barristers for pennies on the dollar. But hey, these kids have put their deposits down and have swallowed the Dean's rosy outlook about how in 2016 the economy will be booming and demand for lawyers will be at an all-time high. So OP, leave these kids alone and let them learn the hard way.

wakefield wrote:

WhoIsJohnGalt wrote:

pjo wrote:I am a TTT grad in that I didn't come from YHS Law and in my opinion all other schools are TTT. I attended a Tier 1 law school (T25 to be specific) during the end of the Golden Age of the legal profession (i.e., your daydreaming version of "models and bottles" days). To the kid who says I have no credibility, I seek no validation from you. My statement is offered for what it is worth. I know you have already made the plunge. Study your ass off, cross your fingers and pray your investment doesn't sour. I hope for my sake I am wrong (re: the economy) but I am a realist and I archived my rose tinted glasses back in the late '90s. If you are in the T14 (excluding YHS) on a full scholarship, I suppose it won't harm you (unless you count the opportunity cost of three years of wages). However, for those paying sticker or are on partial scholarship, my advice is to stick it out for one semester. If your grades are not in the top quarter, you are wasting your time and money continuing on a downward spiral.

Really??? So what would you have done with those three years had you not gone to law school? Serious, I challenge all of these naysayers to offer some constructive advice for once instead of just coming on here and being like "don't go to law school, you'll make more money doing something else" and yet they never say what this "something else" is. please share this secret wisdom that law school applicants, along with the rest of the unemployed in this country must be missing. What is this secret career that has no risk, positive return on investment and job security?

It's obviously tough out there but I think you're looking at it a bit too narrowly. For starters, one thing you could do is not go to law school. That "something else", whatever it is, would result in not incurring +100K in debt. I'm being general but the vast number of people going to school are debt financing and are going to graduate with very few job prospects.

Unemployment for 3 years > Unemployed in 3 years + 100K debt

Again, for some people it will make sense and I'm not going to even try to draw a line to decide where that is.

People with full rides/substantial scholarships are better off going to law school than making 25k with useless BA/BS degrees. For those of us who aren't engineers, law school is better than the alternative, and the "opportunity cost" is laughable.

stintez wrote:

Tanicius wrote:

stintez wrote:

Locke N. Lawded wrote:Actually, bar review whoring pays pretty well.

You typically do need to have a JD and be a licensed attorney just because it's hard to sell something you have never had to endure yourself.

Base pay is $50K with commissions up to an additional $50K. Actually just got a nice commission check for $11K this week.

It's not a bad gig, actually. It's sort of like running your own business. You get to travel to lots of different schools around the country, give away swag, and raffle off iPods. The cons are having to schlep tons of crap around--and competition in this market is fierce.

Those 2008 and 2009 classmates of mine who managed to land jobs--with the exception of the lucky handful who got BigLaw--are all working BigLaw hours doing PI or ID work for less than what I make in base pay.

I love sales how does one get to land a job such as yours?

You need to go to law school.

Oh, shit.

No shit halftard I was talking about after getting bent over by the law school train.

wakefield wrote:

WhoIsJohnGalt wrote:

pjo wrote:I am a TTT grad in that I didn't come from YHS Law and in my opinion all other schools are TTT. I attended a Tier 1 law school (T25 to be specific) during the end of the Golden Age of the legal profession (i.e., your daydreaming version of "models and bottles" days). To the kid who says I have no credibility, I seek no validation from you. My statement is offered for what it is worth. I know you have already made the plunge. Study your ass off, cross your fingers and pray your investment doesn't sour. I hope for my sake I am wrong (re: the economy) but I am a realist and I archived my rose tinted glasses back in the late '90s. If you are in the T14 (excluding YHS) on a full scholarship, I suppose it won't harm you (unless you count the opportunity cost of three years of wages). However, for those paying sticker or are on partial scholarship, my advice is to stick it out for one semester. If your grades are not in the top quarter, you are wasting your time and money continuing on a downward spiral.

Really??? So what would you have done with those three years had you not gone to law school? Serious, I challenge all of these naysayers to offer some constructive advice for once instead of just coming on here and being like "don't go to law school, you'll make more money doing something else" and yet they never say what this "something else" is. please share this secret wisdom that law school applicants, along with the rest of the unemployed in this country must be missing. What is this secret career that has no risk, positive return on investment and job security?

It's obviously tough out there but I think you're looking at it a bit too narrowly. For starters, one thing you could do is not go to law school. That "something else", whatever it is, would result in not incurring +100K in debt. I'm being general but the vast number of people going to school are debt financing and are going to graduate with very few job prospects.

Unemployment for 3 years > Unemployed in 3 years + 100K debt

Again, for some people it will make sense and I'm not going to even try to draw a line to decide where that is.

People with full rides/substantial scholarships are better off going to law school than making 25k with useless BA/BS degrees. For those of us who aren't engineers, law school is better than the alternative, and the "opportunity cost" is laughable.

TTTGrad wrote:As a midlaw partner who worked in biglaw and in-house counsel, my opinion is that going to law school these days is a losing proposition unless you go YHS and graduate in the top quarter.

holydonkey wrote:

TTTGrad wrote:As a midlaw partner who worked in biglaw and in-house counsel, my opinion is that going to law school these days is a losing proposition unless you go YHS and graduate in the top quarter.

How does one finish in the top quarter at Yale? I thought they didn't do grades. Are all Yale grads screwed because they can't finish in the top quarter of their class?

pjo wrote:

wakefield wrote:

WhoIsJohnGalt wrote:

pjo wrote:I am a TTT grad in that I didn't come from YHS Law and in my opinion all other schools are TTT. I attended a Tier 1 law school (T25 to be specific) during the end of the Golden Age of the legal profession (i.e., your daydreaming version of "models and bottles" days). To the kid who says I have no credibility, I seek no validation from you. My statement is offered for what it is worth. I know you have already made the plunge. Study your ass off, cross your fingers and pray your investment doesn't sour. I hope for my sake I am wrong (re: the economy) but I am a realist and I archived my rose tinted glasses back in the late '90s. If you are in the T14 (excluding YHS) on a full scholarship, I suppose it won't harm you (unless you count the opportunity cost of three years of wages). However, for those paying sticker or are on partial scholarship, my advice is to stick it out for one semester. If your grades are not in the top quarter, you are wasting your time and money continuing on a downward spiral.

Really??? So what would you have done with those three years had you not gone to law school? Serious, I challenge all of these naysayers to offer some constructive advice for once instead of just coming on here and being like "don't go to law school, you'll make more money doing something else" and yet they never say what this "something else" is. please share this secret wisdom that law school applicants, along with the rest of the unemployed in this country must be missing. What is this secret career that has no risk, positive return on investment and job security?

It's obviously tough out there but I think you're looking at it a bit too narrowly. For starters, one thing you could do is not go to law school. That "something else", whatever it is, would result in not incurring +100K in debt. I'm being general but the vast number of people going to school are debt financing and are going to graduate with very few job prospects.

Unemployment for 3 years > Unemployed in 3 years + 100K debt

Again, for some people it will make sense and I'm not going to even try to draw a line to decide where that is.

People with full rides/substantial scholarships are better off going to law school than making 25k with useless BA/BS degrees. For those of us who aren't engineers, law school is better than the alternative, and the "opportunity cost" is laughable.

This is exactly what I was saying. whosjohngalt, go back and look at what you said (which I bolded). You seem to think that its only moderately beneficial at best for an applicant to accept half-schooly at a T14 as opposed to just going into the workforce right now. Unless your sitting on a pile of gold come graduation from UG, how would accepting a half-scholly to a T14 or even a full scholly to a strong regional be a bad decision? With a BA you're lucky to be making 30k/yr (that is if you even find a job, which I've already explained is hard enough for recent college grads). Even if you only end up making 40k graduating from law school, as long as you didn't tak out astronomical amounts of money to attend school, law school would be a wise investment. Why? 1.your potential to make money over the longhaul is statistally greater than someone with just a bachelors 2.chances are you'll be happier at your job, at least in relative terms. I know I at least would enjoy my job and life much more if I was making 40k/yr as a lawyer as opposed to 40k/yr in sales. I guess no.2 comes down to some personal preference but still.

pjo wrote:

wakefield wrote:

WhoIsJohnGalt wrote:

pjo wrote:I am a TTT grad in that I didn't come from YHS Law and in my opinion all other schools are TTT. I attended a Tier 1 law school (T25 to be specific) during the end of the Golden Age of the legal profession (i.e., your daydreaming version of "models and bottles" days). To the kid who says I have no credibility, I seek no validation from you. My statement is offered for what it is worth. I know you have already made the plunge. Study your ass off, cross your fingers and pray your investment doesn't sour. I hope for my sake I am wrong (re: the economy) but I am a realist and I archived my rose tinted glasses back in the late '90s. If you are in the T14 (excluding YHS) on a full scholarship, I suppose it won't harm you (unless you count the opportunity cost of three years of wages). However, for those paying sticker or are on partial scholarship, my advice is to stick it out for one semester. If your grades are not in the top quarter, you are wasting your time and money continuing on a downward spiral.

Really??? So what would you have done with those three years had you not gone to law school? Serious, I challenge all of these naysayers to offer some constructive advice for once instead of just coming on here and being like "don't go to law school, you'll make more money doing something else" and yet they never say what this "something else" is. please share this secret wisdom that law school applicants, along with the rest of the unemployed in this country must be missing. What is this secret career that has no risk, positive return on investment and job security?

It's obviously tough out there but I think you're looking at it a bit too narrowly. For starters, one thing you could do is not go to law school. That "something else", whatever it is, would result in not incurring +100K in debt. I'm being general but the vast number of people going to school are debt financing and are going to graduate with very few job prospects.

Unemployment for 3 years > Unemployed in 3 years + 100K debt

Again, for some people it will make sense and I'm not going to even try to draw a line to decide where that is.

People with full rides/substantial scholarships are better off going to law school than making 25k with useless BA/BS degrees. For those of us who aren't engineers, law school is better than the alternative, and the "opportunity cost" is laughable.

This is exactly what I was saying. whosjohngalt, go back and look at what you said (which I bolded). You seem to think that its only moderately beneficial at best for an applicant to accept half-schooly at a T14 as opposed to just going into the workforce right now. Unless your sitting on a pile of gold come graduation from UG, how would accepting a half-scholly to a T14 or even a full scholly to a strong regional be a bad decision? With a BA you're lucky to be making 30k/yr (that is if you even find a job, which I've already explained is hard enough for recent college grads). Even if you only end up making 40k graduating from law school, as long as you didn't tak out astronomical amounts of money to attend school, law school would be a wise investment. Why? 1.your potential to make money over the longhaul is statistally greater than someone with just a bachelors 2.chances are you'll be happier at your job, at least in relative terms. I know I at least would enjoy my job and life much more if I was making 40k/yr as a lawyer as opposed to 40k/yr in sales. I guess no.2 comes down to some personal preference but still.

miamiman wrote:I would say this. I'm not crediting TTTGrad's opinion because other posters have rightly pointed out that it's riddled with ignorance. I will say this, though, and independent of this thread and the opinions of JDU trolls: I've had serious doubts in the last month.

I read through posts like this one

http://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id ... a4e073c6c5

(medianish CLS giving strong consideration to dropping out).


It's not that law isn't a noble field with really compelling reasons to want to practice. The problem is the saturation of the profession in virtually every market, saturation that's only been magnified ITE. If you scroll through XOXO (biases acknowledged), you'll see medianish kids at every T14 considering dropping out.

You guys can hate on this post but I'm just laying out my current position.

WhoIsJohnGalt wrote:People with full rides/substantial scholarships are better off going to law school than making 25k with useless BA/BS degrees. For those of us who aren't engineers, law school is better than the alternative, and the "opportunity cost" is laughable.


Absolutely. There's no question about that - as long as the full/partial ride is there. When you take that away, the picture grows much more dim. I'm just envisioning when the useless BA/BS majors get to their first interview and are asked why they want to practice law, "Because I couldn't hack it with my English major in the real world."

Fact: People who can't hack it in the real world generally can't make it rain. Law firms know

Desert Fox wrote:

miamiman wrote:I would say this. I'm not crediting TTTGrad's opinion because other posters have rightly pointed out that it's riddled with ignorance. I will say this, though, and independent of this thread and the opinions of JDU trolls: I've had serious doubts in the last month.

I read through posts like this one

http://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id ... a4e073c6c5

(medianish CLS giving strong consideration to dropping out).


It's not that law isn't a noble field with really compelling reasons to want to practice. The problem is the saturation of the profession in virtually every market, saturation that's only been magnified ITE. If you scroll through XOXO (biases acknowledged), you'll see medianish kids at every T14 considering dropping out.

You guys can hate on this post but I'm just laying out my current position.

Median at CLS pulled big law more often than not even in 2011.