Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad? Forum

[JCougar]

I don't know how this got to be a discussion about anything lower than T14 schools projecting into biglaw, because I already conceded that that's not going to happen. However, I don't buy this notion that there's no jobs out there other than biglaw. Don't make me pull up the infamous placement chart and show the light-grey bars that represent law firm jobs that aren't NLJ250, which account for a plurality of law jobs graduates get any given year. I'm sure hiring is down there, too, but it still exists, even ITE.

Whatever. I'm done arguing here. I need to get some sleep. I have more important things to think about, such as getting a score high enough to even get in to Wisconsin, or anywhere else on my target list, for that matter. I was born in Milwaukee, and I know two Marquette graduates that are doing just fine. They're definitely not making six figures and driving new German cars, but they live a comfortable life working at smaller firms.

[edgarderby]

I don't know how this got to be a discussion about anything lower than T14 schools projecting into biglaw, because I already conceded that that's not going to happen. However, I don't buy this notion that there's no jobs out there other than biglaw. Don't make me pull up the infamous placement chart and show the light-grey bars that represent law firm jobs that aren't NLJ250, which account for a plurality of law jobs graduates get any given year. I'm sure hiring is down there, too, but it still exists, even ITE.

Whatever. I'm done arguing here. I need to get some sleep. I have more important things to think about, such as getting a score high enough to even get in to Wisconsin, or anywhere else on my target list, for that matter. I was born in Milwaukee, and I know two Marquette graduates that are doing just fine. They're definitely not making six figures and driving new German cars, but they live a comfortable life working at smaller firms.

Don't bet on it. I got beat out by the local T4s where I'm from, just because those schools are feeders for smaller firms.

[ughOSU]

I'm more representative of annoying Philadelphia people (my home) than California.

How do you feel about Iverson going back to the Sixers? Being a transplanted Philadelphian myslef, this is a throwback to my high school years that I'm pumped about...

Highlights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Stf0DEtB86U

e: ... and the obligatory "practice" clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGDBR2L5kzI

[rondemarino]

I'm more representative of annoying Philadelphia people (my home) than California.

How do you feel about Iverson going back to the Sixers? Being a transplanted Philadelphian myslef, this is a throwback to my high school years that I'm pumped about...

Highlights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Stf0DEtB86U

e: ... and the obligatory "practice" clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGDBR2L5kzI

Give me Larry Brown again and we can have a party. Meh. Sixers are going nowhere for a while. The Phillies have been my one true love and its been an awesome three years. Hell, we even have a Penn Charter alum running the team. Represent! Nevertheless, it'll be cool to see A.I. back in a sixers jersey.

[Matthies]

I just got done consolidating all my loans that I picked up along the way from UG, Masters and Law School. I had loans ranging from 1.88% (like 2) several in the 6% range and the grad plus where 8.5%. What they did when I consolidated was took all the loans interest rates and averaged them or something because my consolidated loan interest rate for all those loans combined is now 5.4%. So it went up for a few, but down for most. I can’t really tell you how it works, I can just tell you that’s what it says on the report I got consolidating all my loans ( idid not have a alot for LS becuase I worked, but I had alot from UG and masters).

[JCougar]

I got such a low rate because my undergrad cost less than my high school and thus I was able to finance it with the cheapest loans, and I only took out living expenses loans for one year of grad school. The second year I lived off savings from working at an internship the summer before plus some help from my parents. Both my parents and my grad school advisor talked me out of working part-time my first year of grad school, which was a huge mistake. Master's programs are not that hard where I couldn't have taken a part-time job somewhere in retail sales (like I had during undergrad). I'd love to have never taken out that one grad plus loan. It was pointless, and it's a horrible deal, but everyone talked me into it. Never again.

I know working at all during 1L is not really an option, though, which is why I'm saving up $10k in cash for my first year of school. 2L will be tough, but hopefully I'll get paid 2L summer enough to make it through 8 months of 3L with minimal loans/help. My goal is to keep my total LS debt close to $70k (unless I get in somewhere in T25), without taking out extra money for COL. That's where you really get hammered with interest rates.

[Matthies]

I know working at all during 1L is not really an option, though, which is why I'm saving up $10k in cash for my first year of school. 2L will be tough, but hopefully I'll get paid 2L summer enough to make it through 8 months of 3L with minimal loans/help. My goal is to keep my total LS debt close to $70k (unless I get in somewhere in T25), without taking out extra money for COL. That's where you really get hammered with interest rates.

I went part-time so i worked. But a good 30-40% of the fulltime 3Ls I knew all worked at least PT 3L, and as far as I know (have not seen many of them since graduation) last i heard everyone who was working 3L got offers at the places they were working. So if you can do it, take a few summer courses to lighten your load for 3L then work for both money, experince and possibly a job.

[ughOSU]

I'm more representative of annoying Philadelphia people (my home) than California.

How do you feel about Iverson going back to the Sixers? Being a transplanted Philadelphian myslef, this is a throwback to my high school years that I'm pumped about...

Highlights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Stf0DEtB86U

e: ... and the obligatory "practice" clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGDBR2L5kzI

Give me Larry Brown again and we can have a party. Meh. Sixers are going nowhere for a while. The Phillies have been my one true love and its been an awesome three years. Hell, we even have a Penn Charter alum running the team. Represent! Nevertheless, it'll be cool to see A.I. back in a sixers jersey.

Yea the phillies are the shit for sure. Maybe while Cole Hamels is out there in SoCal for the winter you can tell him to grow a pair, stop whining, and pitch like he did in 08.

[rondemarino]

I'm more representative of annoying Philadelphia people (my home) than California.

How do you feel about Iverson going back to the Sixers? Being a transplanted Philadelphian myslef, this is a throwback to my high school years that I'm pumped about...

Highlights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Stf0DEtB86U

e: ... and the obligatory "practice" clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGDBR2L5kzI

Give me Larry Brown again and we can have a party. Meh. Sixers are going nowhere for a while. The Phillies have been my one true love and its been an awesome three years. Hell, we even have a Penn Charter alum running the team. Represent! Nevertheless, it'll be cool to see A.I. back in a sixers jersey.

Yea the phillies are the shit for sure. Maybe while Cole Hamels is out there in SoCal for the winter you can tell him to grow a pair, stop whining, and pitch like he did in 08.

I just want them to trade for Doc Holliday. Strike while the window (JRo, Utley, Howard, Shane and Werth are mashing) in still open! When they got Lee they didn't give up a single player from the bounty Toronto was asking for. Lee/Halladay/Hamels/Blanton/Happ. They could do worse.

[SteelReserve]

If you honestly think there is going to be an immediate, noticeable adjustment upwards from the hiring trends of this year, you simply haven't spoken to any hiring partners, at any firms, at all. The C/O 2012 will do better than 2011, and 2013 will probably do better than 12, but you're not going to be anywhere near the classes of '04-06. They all expect gradual improvement--over the course of several years, as the pipeline has a chance to take care of the deferred and laid off associates, as well as the unemployed associates from the classes of 2009/10/11 that are probably going to be hardest hit. Gradual improvement, however, to perhaps where they were before everything hit the fan, and that's presuming that there isn't significant change in how the entire model works.

B: Yes, instate tuition at Wisconsin will run under $60k total... if you start this year, anyway. Tuition is at $16.4k this year, something like a 15% increase over last year (I can look the exact number up if you want me to, given my personal experience there.) Living on $1k a month in Madison is certainly obtainable--certainly more reasonable than in Chicago, anyway. That said, the estimated CoA at Wisconsin is still $32k per year, at current tuition prices. I will grant that the living allowance is excessive, but you're still going to be pushing 80k--I should know, having been a student there and all (that's why I use Wisconsin as a specific example, and being intimately familiar with Madison's CoL, having essentially grown up there.)

Edit: In defense of Cougar, you fail at budgeting if you can't feed yourself on $250 a month in Chicago. I spend considerably less than that. The rent amount seems unrealistically low in general, though--$350 a month is about what one can expect to pay for rent in Madison (yes, living with roommates).

No idea what the numbers are at the other schools you mentioned, but they are probably aren't significantly lower. What "lower ranked schools" in the region are you referring to? Marquette? For an in-state person, Marquette is almost certain to be more expensive, even with scholarship, than Wisconsin, unless you have T14 numbers. The lower-ranked Chicago schools? Considering their admission numbers are competative with Wisconsin's, you're not likely to get any significant scholarship money, unless you're talking about Marshall. For an in-state Wisconsin student, Wisconsin is almost certain to be your best deal, unless you got in the T14.

If you want to honestly talk to me about job opportunities available to Wisconsin students right now, by all means. I am not being hyperbolic--there are people who graduated in the top 5% this year and are working for $40k--or nothing, in one or two examples. I know of a number of top-10%-LR folks who got zeroed-out in OCI this year; and yes, that was interviewing with every firm that showed up.

I honestly just don't think you know how hard law firms have been hit. You want to talk about secondary markets? You want to talk about the "scaring effect" a lot of people have mentioned about T14s? Let's talk about Milwaukee, a place I lived in for over 5 years, in the state I essentially grew up in, whose state school I transferred out of, where I interned for the state's supreme court 1L summer:

Foley & Lardner, Milwaukee's only V100 firm, has what amounts to a hiring freeze right now. They're taking an insignifcant number of people this year (18 expected according to the NALP firm): one or two from Wisconsin's diversity clerkship program, a very small number of SAs. I was asked flat out in my OCI interview: "Why should we believe you have any interest in coming back to Milwaukee? Why would you have transferred out of Wisconsin?" They are being flooded by applicants from Northwestern, Michigan, Minnesota, and UChicago.

Whyte Hirshboeck Dudek: Hiring something like 5 SAs this summer, total, including diversity clerkship. I was rejected on mail in, and I am on very good terms with a partner there.

Quarles and Brady: No summer program this year at all. (Evidence that the estimate on the NALP forms are high, by the way--their NALP form says 7.)

Heller: We all know what happened to them. Wisconsin's legal market is still struggling to absorb all of the Heller Ehlman associates.

Reinhardt: Hiring a tiny number of SAs this year--so insignificant a number, in fact, that they cancelled their interviews at UChicago. I got rejected on my mail-in to them, by the way

Godfrey and Kahn: NALP lists 15 SAs; however, that number has been the same for 3 years, and I find it incredibly unlikely that they took the same number of people in 2007 as they expect to take this year. Rejected on the mail-in.

Michael Best: 14 expected. Made it to a phone interview with these folks, very clearly got a "we don't think you really want to be here" vibe, despite my insistence otherwise.

von Briesen: Even in a normal year they only take 4ish SAs, no idea if they are taking any at all this year.

That concludes the list of NALP firms in Milwaukee. Milwaukee is NOT a tiny legal market--it isn't as big as Minneapolis, but it doesn't have as many schools directly feeding in to its market, either.

Madison is an even smaller market, and has always been terribly difficult to break in to. This year? The number of people Madison is hiring is absolutely insignificant.

This is an incredibly valuable post! I know nothing about the WI market, but this sort of thing accurately reflects what is happening in ALL the states.

[SteelReserve]

This FBI is so awesome* that they aren't even having volunteers this year.

*awesome means really shitty government organization that can't afford to have people come work for them for free.

LOL this anonymous post was great. Maybe the big bad FBI is coming to get you because you said something bad about them...better go anonymous!

[ughOSU]

I just want them to trade for Doc Holliday. Strike while the window (JRo, Utley, Howard, Shane and Werth are mashing) in still open! When they got Lee they didn't give up a single player from the bounty Toronto was asking for. Lee/Halladay/Hamels/Blanton/Happ. They could do worse.

Yea that would be insane. They won't do it though because they are going to want to have some semblence of a pitching rotation in 2011 (Lee/Halliday/Martinez(lol) and I think Blanton would be free agents, and best they could hope to pay for would be 1 + Martinez). That's why they refused to do the Toronto deal in the first place. I was so happy when the picked up Lee though (given my current locale Lee has been my favorite pitcher for the last couple years). Amaro has done a ridiculously good job. He's built up quite an arsenal on the field, and the phillies still have one of the best farm systems in the league. It would be interesting to trade some top prospects just to load up the team for one year. I'm sure they could do some serious damage.

IMO, this phillies conversation is completely rescuing this train wreck of a thread.

[illiniKID9]

omg...after reading all these posts, how am i not supposed to fill pessimistic about my future financial situation, i cant imagine paying loans for the rest of my life.

[Apple Tree]

People should come here to ask which schools to choose. It's more realistic here.

[illiniKID9]

yes, my only hope is that God willing the economy turns around, hopefully better employment prospects for lawyers...at least job opportunities that will allow me to pay of my debts within 10yrs and live a comfortable life style

[TigerBeer]

i cant imagine paying loans for the rest of my life.

Welcome to America, enjoy your stay. Don't forget to buy health insurance from one of our corporate sponsors!

[RVP11]

Why? Your odds at a t14 aren't particularly good anymore. Even top 25% with no journal is far from a decent shot at biglaw.

Huh? "Far from a decent shot?"

Looking at the callback thread, the tales of top 25% (or better) at T14 and no BigLaw offers were few and far between.

Top 25% at T14 and no BigLaw offer = you did something wrong with your bids or interviews

[rayiner]

Why? Your odds at a t14 aren't particularly good anymore. Even top 25% with no journal is far from a decent shot at biglaw.

Huh? "Far from a decent shot?"

Looking at the callback thread, the tales of top 25% (or better) at T14 and no BigLaw offers were few and far between.

Top 25% at T14 and no BigLaw offer = you did something wrong with your bids or interviews

Yeah...

[Anonymous User]

There is no way in hell I could live off of $25K in a primary market like NYC.

It can most certainly be done- you just would not like the standard of living. I lived on less than $1k/mo in NYC when I was a SA (probably would have come to about $1k/mo if I had been paying for all my meals). It meant living in a hostel. For 2 months it was OK, but I would have been rather unhappy if it was my permanent life.

I'm not trying to harp on a point that I know you probably made off-hand, but I really had no idea this could be done. You can pay rent + utilities + food + transportation + [strike]taxes[/strike] for $2K/month? (Anywhere, let alone NY?) On the plus side, even the crappiest LRAPs will cover you when you're pulling down that kind of flow (or lack thereof).

You can make $25K/yr. without a HS diploma. Also, I'm told the average debt load for a GED is far less than that of a JD.

If you only make 25k a year, you might as well exit the legal field and work at a fast food restaurant and try to become manager of the restaurant, because managers get paid over twice that. 25k a year wouldn't let you live NORMALLY (not in a hostel made for drug users and homeless people) in any remotely urban area and probably not in most suburbs anywhere in America either.

I live in LA on a budget of $2,000 per month.
Car + food + rent + utilities + going out
It's tight but manageable.

[Philaw]

Thanks for the analyses of the bimodal curve. I think I have misinterpreted it slightly, but when the sword of LS debt is hanging over your head, it's hard to be optimistic. I would rather underestimate my chances of 6 figures than overestimate.

This guy just admitted that he may possibly be wrong and took a realistic stance after hearing real information....Wow. TLS is moving up in the world. Jazz- also, I read your post earlier about "just wanting to get it (law school) over with, and find something else to do" with a full-ride at UT Austin. I'm truly sorry you feel this way, and believe me when I say I would give up a ton to be in your position right now at UT. I think you will be better off than you may think. Hope your outlook improves.

[JazzOne]

Thanks for the analyses of the bimodal curve. I think I have misinterpreted it slightly, but when the sword of LS debt is hanging over your head, it's hard to be optimistic. I would rather underestimate my chances of 6 figures than overestimate.

This guy just admitted that he may possibly be wrong and took a realistic stance after hearing real information....Wow. TLS is moving up in the world. Jazz- also, I read your post earlier about "just wanting to get it (law school) over with, and find something else to do" with a full-ride at UT Austin. I'm truly sorry you feel this way, and believe me when I say I would give up a ton to be in your position right now at UT. I think you will be better off than you may think. Hope your outlook improves.

I'm sure lots of people would love to be in my position right now. Then again, I can be as bitter as I want since I'm the one who busted my ass to get good grades only to receive no employment offers. None. Zero. I'll be playing my sax and playing poker for a living this summer. Let's just say I'm a little disappointed with my employment prospects. The only thing I am thankful for at this point is that I'm not paying for this shit. And when I have to go to class with people who have lower grades than I do and terrific summer offers, I just don't even want to be here.

[XxSpyKEx]

Why? Your odds at a t14 aren't particularly good anymore. Even top 25% with no journal is far from a decent shot at biglaw.

Huh? "Far from a decent shot?"

Looking at the callback thread, the tales of top 25% (or better) at T14 and no BigLaw offers were few and far between.

Top 25% at T14 and no BigLaw offer = you did something wrong with your bids or interviews

*Jumps into time machine and goes back to DECEMBER 2, 2009*

I'm actually interested in what the final results of OCI were this year. If you consider $145-160K firms biglaw, I would imagine only around a 1/3 of the class got that at t14s excluding GULC/Cornell. If you consider NLJ250 biglaw (which includes firms that pay around $85K), then it is probably closer to half at t14s excluding GULC/Cornell. With that said, top 25% (or worse) + no journal is hardly a lock into biglaw. It seems like firms cared a lot more about personality fit this year and continued hiring around the same or only slightly higher GPA then they always did (although, I have no idea what v10 type firms that typically manage to have ultra high GPA medians did). Therefore, top 25% at t14 w/o journal does not necessarily = you did something wrong with your bids or interviews (unless, of course, you consider not "fitting" the personality of the firm you are interviewing with doing something wrong with your interview).

[rayiner]

Why? Your odds at a t14 aren't particularly good anymore. Even top 25% with no journal is far from a decent shot at biglaw.

Huh? "Far from a decent shot?"

Looking at the callback thread, the tales of top 25% (or better) at T14 and no BigLaw offers were few and far between.

Top 25% at T14 and no BigLaw offer = you did something wrong with your bids or interviews

*Jumps into time machine and goes back to DECEMBER 2, 2009*

I'm actually interested in what the final results of OCI were this year. If you consider $145-160K firms biglaw, I would imagine only around a 1/3 of the class got that at t14s excluding GULC/Cornell. If you consider NLJ250 biglaw (which includes firms that pay around $85K), then it is probably closer to half at t14s excluding GULC/Cornell. With that said, top 25% (or worse) + no journal is hardly a lock into biglaw. It seems like firms cared a lot more about personality fit this year and continued hiring around the same or only slightly higher GPA then they always did (although, I have no idea what v10 type firms that typically manage to have ultra high GPA medians did). Therefore, top 25% at t14 w/o journal does not necessarily = you did something wrong with your bids or interviews (unless, of course, you consider not "fitting" the personality of the firm you are interviewing with doing something wrong with your interview).

I think the issue is more "far from decent" versus "hardly a lock". Two pretty different things.

[XxSpyKEx]

Why? Your odds at a t14 aren't particularly good anymore. Even top 25% with no journal is far from a decent shot at biglaw.

Huh? "Far from a decent shot?"

Looking at the callback thread, the tales of top 25% (or better) at T14 and no BigLaw offers were few and far between.

Top 25% at T14 and no BigLaw offer = you did something wrong with your bids or interviews

*Jumps into time machine and goes back to DECEMBER 2, 2009*

I'm actually interested in what the final results of OCI were this year. If you consider $145-160K firms biglaw, I would imagine only around a 1/3 of the class got that at t14s excluding GULC/Cornell. If you consider NLJ250 biglaw (which includes firms that pay around $85K), then it is probably closer to half at t14s excluding GULC/Cornell. With that said, top 25% (or worse) + no journal is hardly a lock into biglaw. It seems like firms cared a lot more about personality fit this year and continued hiring around the same or only slightly higher GPA then they always did (although, I have no idea what v10 type firms that typically manage to have ultra high GPA medians did). Therefore, top 25% at t14 w/o journal does not necessarily = you did something wrong with your bids or interviews (unless, of course, you consider not "fitting" the personality of the firm you are interviewing with doing something wrong with your interview).

I think the issue is more "far from decent" versus "hardly a lock". Two pretty different things.

The real difference is DECEMBER 2, 2009 (pure speculation) versus March 9, 2010 (real numbers).

[rayiner]

The real difference is DECEMBER 2, 2009 (pure speculation) versus March 9, 2010 (real numbers).

LOL, totally did not see that this thread was resurrected.