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what's your opinion?

i'm pissed at a classmate who has made it clear that he/she believes the answer is yes

Law school = loser.

rayiner wrote:Law school = loser.

i've decided that this is correct.

In a normal economy it was a sign of a probable personality issue. That is certainly not the case now.

so...

success + success + minor setback = loser?

there is just no room for error anymore.

gahthelaw wrote:so...

success + success + minor setback = loser?

there is just no room for error anymore.

ToTransferOrNot wrote:

gahthelaw wrote:so...

success + success + minor setback = loser?

there is just no room for error anymore.

ok, so big setback. i'm just so sick of hearing people who have worked hard up to this point say they got steamrolled and then absolutely refuse to pick themselves back up.

ur a loooooooooooser



actualy

the economy is a looooooooooser

I think that a person whose job search model was:

1. Nail LSAT
2. Get accepted to any T-14
3. ???
4. Profit

deserves to be branded a loser if they struck out at OCI and had no viable back-up plan, particularly if they were concentrating on the NYC market.

hbb wrote:I think that a person whose job search model was:

1. Nail LSAT
2. Get accepted to any T-14
3. ???
4. Profit

deserves to be branded a loser if they struck out at OCI and had no viable back-up plan, particularly if they were concentrating on the NYC market.

why? our career counselors all told us that this would be a very successful job search plan.

hint: career counselors are career counselors because they couldn't find careers

wiseowl wrote:hint: career counselors are career counselors because they couldn't find careers

well, it wasn't only the counselors that gave this impression. every bit of reliable data from the NLJ to AmLaw to ATL (semi-reliable) to TLS (semi-reliable) to USNews (semi-reliable for salaries) to counselors (unreliable) to common sense (reliable) suggested that if you went to t14 and were above average and weren't too awkward you'd make $125k-160k. Anyone who suggested otherwise on TLS was ridiculed. Now, only about 1/3 of t14ers can get a callback; even fewer will get jobs.

you're not a loser, you just got screwed by being class of 2011.

legends159 wrote:you're not a loser, you just got screwed by being class of 2011.

+1

Now, only about 1/3 of t14ers can get a callback; even fewer will get jobs.

Things are bad, but this is definitely not true.

Depends on how far above median.

FrankReynolds wrote:

Now, only about 1/3 of t14ers can get a callback; even fewer will get jobs.

Things are bad, but this is definitely not true.

uh, actually, outside CCN, this is pretty accurate, at least for describing OCI callbacks.

gahthelaw wrote:

ToTransferOrNot wrote:

gahthelaw wrote:so...

success + success + minor setback = loser?

there is just no room for error anymore.

ok, so big setback. i'm just so sick of hearing people who have worked hard up to this point say they got steamrolled and then absolutely refuse to pick themselves back up.

I actually think that people are overstating how big of a setback this OCI stuff is. Yes, it's tough. Yes, you have a lot of debt. Nevertheless, not having a 30K summer job with a probable in for a job with a STARTING salary of around 130-180K (including bonus) 21 months before graduation is, IMO, a minor setback in life. T14 law grads still have a number of exit options and though they may even have to scrape by on lower middle class salaries (after you subtract debt payments) for a few years, they still have a significant amount of human capital compared to most people in this economy.

This economy is harsh. students should be thinking much more carefully about going to law school than most of them actually do, but T14 students who consider OCI strike outs as a major setback in life need to keep this in perspective. I think the vast majority of them will end up just fine... then again... some people have different definitions of just fine.

chris0805 wrote:

gahthelaw wrote:

ToTransferOrNot wrote:

gahthelaw wrote:so...

success + success + minor setback = loser?

there is just no room for error anymore.

ok, so big setback. i'm just so sick of hearing people who have worked hard up to this point say they got steamrolled and then absolutely refuse to pick themselves back up.

I actually think that people are overstating how big of a setback this OCI stuff is. Yes, it's tough. Yes, you have a lot of debt. Nevertheless, not having a 30K summer job with a probable in for a job with a STARTING salary of around 130-180K (including bonus) 21 months before graduation is, IMO, a minor setback in life. T14 law grads still have a number of exit options and though they may even have to scrape by on lower middle class salaries (after you subtract debt payments) for a few years, they still have a significant amount of human capital compared to most people in this economy.

This economy is harsh. students should be thinking much more carefully about going to law school than most of them actually do, but T14 students who consider OCI strike outs as a major setback in life need to keep this in perspective. I think the vast majority of them will end up just fine... then again... some people have different definitions of just fine.

What's your definition of "just fine?"

chris0805 wrote:

gahthelaw wrote:

ToTransferOrNot wrote:

gahthelaw wrote:so...

success + success + minor setback = loser?

there is just no room for error anymore.

ok, so big setback. i'm just so sick of hearing people who have worked hard up to this point say they got steamrolled and then absolutely refuse to pick themselves back up.

I actually think that people are overstating how big of a setback this OCI stuff is. Yes, it's tough. Yes, you have a lot of debt. Nevertheless, not having a 30K summer job with a probable in for a job with a STARTING salary of around 130-180K (including bonus) 21 months before graduation is, IMO, a minor setback in life. T14 law grads still have a number of exit options and though they may even have to scrape by on lower middle class salaries (after you subtract debt payments) for a few years, they still have a significant amount of human capital compared to most people in this economy.

This economy is harsh. students should be thinking much more carefully about going to law school than most of them actually do, but T14 students who consider OCI strike outs as a major setback in life need to keep this in perspective. I think the vast majority of them will end up just fine... then again... some people have different definitions of just fine.

my definition of "just fine" does not involve 6 figure debt with no reasonable means of paying it off.

and as you open your mouth to say "LRAP!" - i don't consider that reasonable. what happens when schools or the government can no longer keep up their commitments once 80% of the class is having their loans repaid? you're high and dry.

Anonymous User wrote:
What's your definition of "just fine?"

1. I don't understand why some many of these posts are anonymous.

2. I'll admit that maybe my definition of "just fine" is a little more bare bones than some people. Just fine, to me, includes the necessities plus a few luxuries of your choice (e.g. maybe you always bring your lunch and cook at home so that you can afford that trip you want). IMO, some people equate luxuries like eating out, going to the bar, expensive electronics, international travel, and living in one's city of choice as necessities.

my definition of "just fine" does not involve 6 figure debt with no reasonable means of paying it off.

and as you open your mouth to say "LRAP!" - i don't consider that reasonable. what happens when schools or the government can no longer keep up their commitments once 80% of the class is having their loans repaid? you're high and dry.

I think it's a little early for this years T14 2Ls to say that they have no reasonable means to pay off their debt because they didn't get a job in the traditional early hiring program. Also, I think T3 grads at the median can be panicking. T14 grads are going to be flooding into secondary legal markets and government positions and other positions that were once not seen as desirable. I'm not naive enough to think the T14 student gets the job every time, but I do think they will have an advantage.

Also, I purposely did not include LRAP in any of this discussion. I think most students will still find themselves outside of LRAP eligible employment, even if the pay difference is much smaller than it used to be.

IMO, some people equate luxuries like eating out, going to the bar,

eh. If you go to college for 7 years and live like a student, eating out really should not be considered a luxury for the career you end up with :/

Eating food in a restaurant that is prepared and cleaned up by someone else opposed to cooking at home is a luxury, not a necessity. I think you're argument is that having 7 years of higher education should warrant a level of luxury that easily includes eating out. That's probably true, but my point was hey, economy sucks, you'll likely make less than expected (which was a very high amount). This is a bummer, and upon graduation and for a few years, you'll likely have to get by without some luxuries you might have planned on, but it's not a complete killself disaster. Which "some" I guess is always up to the individual.

obviously its not "killself" (or shouldn't be) but someone above median at a T14 deserves a firm job IMO. Not getting a single callback, let alone an offer is a bit unfair after the amount of time/money that had been dedicated to a "sure thing."

FrankReynolds wrote:obviously its not "killself" (or shouldn't be) but someone above median at a T14 deserves a firm job IMO. Not getting a single callback, let alone an offer is a bit unfair after the amount of time/money that had been dedicated to a "sure thing."

I don't know about unfair....I would say unfortunate. Nobody is entitled to a job.