SEO Corporate Law Forum

[Skool]

In the last two weeks I've managed filings in SCOTUS and two other state Supreme courts across the country. This year is going to be filled with many other baller litigation projects with really smart litigators who are making me a better professional (in terms of my substantive legal knowledge and skills). You don't just walk away from a good place without really understanding your alternative. Especially if big law from a T-14 isn't really that hard for URM (and this might be a flawed understanding) since they and clients appear thirsty for more diversity.

I don't know what they're feeding you over there, but I'd take it easy on the kool aid.

We aren't being fed anything. What we're saying is based on facts. You're current job (which I'm assuming to be paralegal, but either way chill, you aren't that important to what is going on) may be super awesome and be giving you a bunch of great experience, but you can only have so much of that on your resume. If it also includes "[V25 Firm] - SEO Summer Associate" a bunch of doors are gonna swing wide open.

I guess I have a lot to learn.

Yes, I'm an SEO alum. And you obviously don't understand your [possible] alternative.

Which is why I'm here.

Honestly, SEO turns down qualified candidates [think HLS 0Ls with crazy resumes] every year, so we're putting the cart before the horse anyway. We aren't talking just big law, we are talking the most selective firms and folks that can help with the most selective opportunities [think DOJ Honors].

What you are doing as a paralegal isn't that important. As an SA or SEO, you have a chance to work on the substantive portion of the briefing -- although you can't do legal research, you can certainly do policy or facts-related work. And that can include SCOTUS briefing. And honestly, as a paralegal, let's be real, you probs don't have a ton of substantive legal knowledge. I would definitely talk to more folks before forming misguided opinions.

Keeping it real, you're right, I don't know a ton, but you'd be surprised what you can pick up cite checking briefs on novel legal questions. Which is why it makes sense that cite checking is a mainstay of 1L and 2L educational internships (to say nothing of Law Review work). Also, you learn a lot prepping attorneys for deps, attending oral argument for briefs you cite checked, and just asking naive questions about briefs from people who are busy but collegial enough to humor you. Those are all good experiences that I value, whether or not you think they are important.

I'll definitely check in in the coming months to learn more about the program. But I'll be especially interested to hear from people about the particulars of their experience. Which the last few posts have been a little light on.

And you're right, maybe we are putting the cart before the horse, but deciding to apply is pretty important. There are tons of scholarships and actual law school apps to do, and stuff at work to do and Applicants don't have infinite time/Recommenders. If the opportunity cost of rustling up an app and recommendations isn't worth the effort... Wouldn't be a smart move.

I do take txdude's advice to heart though. Having good experience will only take you so far in a profession as ludicrous as this thing of ours. I'll keep in mind that having fun doing interesting legal work has diminishing professional returns long run if you haven't gotten a few dollops of prestige, which is sad but probably true.

[Anonymous User]

Former SEO here as well.

A lot of what you're saying is true. Firms will value your work experience. It demonstrates you can act professionally in a law firm setting. But 2 more months of that won't be nearly as valuable as having an actual legal position at a top law firm on your resume. As you've alluded to, law firm hiring is absurd. If you miss one of the hoops they've set up (top school, good grades, 2L SA, etc.) it's much harder to get hired. Seeing a law firm internship on your resume signals to employers that you're likely able to cut it at their firm as well.

The particulars of the program don't matter. I didn't do shit at my SEO firm. (Not true for all firms. I hear some really work you.) I literally had 4 assignments all summer. Doesn't matter. I put the firm on my resume and could intelligently talk about why I want to work at a firm in interviews for a 1L SA position. That's more valuable than it sounds because the bar is so low for recruiting. It gave me instant credibility. A year later, I have a full time offer to return to a top firm after graduation before I even start OCI.

Maybe I'm just jaded, but law firm hiring isn't about demonstrating legal skills, because unless you're an llm who practiced law in another country, you have none. It's about showing them you've jumped through all the hoops they set up. What you're doing right now won't help with that. SEO will.

[txdude45]

Skool, if you have questions, feel free to PM me. I'm happy to answer them with more specificity than I can in the thread.

[Skool]

Former SEO here as well.

A lot of what you're saying is true. Firms will value your work experience. It demonstrates you can act professionally in a law firm setting. But 2 more months of that won't be nearly as valuable as having an actual legal position at a top law firm on your resume. As you've alluded to, law firm hiring is absurd. If you miss one of the hoops they've set up (top school, good grades, 2L SA, etc.) it's much harder to get hired. Seeing a law firm internship on your resume signals to employers that you're likely able to cut it at their firm as well.

The particulars of the program don't matter. I didn't do shit at my SEO firm. (Not true for all firms. I hear some really work you.) I literally had 4 assignments all summer. Doesn't matter. I put the firm on my resume and could intelligently talk about why I want to work at a firm in interviews for a 1L SA position. That's more valuable than it sounds because the bar is so low for recruiting. It gave me instant credibility. A year later, I have a full time offer to return to a top firm after graduation before I even start OCI.

Maybe I'm just jaded, but law firm hiring isn't about demonstrating legal skills, because unless you're an llm who practiced law in another country, you have none. It's about showing them you've jumped through all the hoops they set up. What you're doing right now won't help with that. SEO will.

Anon, that's super interesting that you were able to get an offer after 1L summer. I would be extremely grateful if you were willing to share via pm a little about how you got your 1L position and offer. For instance, did you apply through one of the hybrid 1L scholarship/SA positions I've read about, or did you mass mail your way to this? How common is it to get these kinds of offers, or do you normally get invited back for 2L? Are there stipulations? Did you really kill it that summer or were you just going through the motions? Are you like a gifted schmoozer/skilled networker or did you just show up and do your job really really well (no offense either way).

If not I understand the need to not discuss this sort of thing and will just appreciate what you've shared already.

Txdude, thanks for the offer, I'm defs going to take you up on it.

I know I haven't been the most graceful in interacting here thus far, but I want to thank everyone for humoring me; from my point of view, this has been productive in understanding SEO, where I am now, and where I should be aiming to go.

[BlakcMajikc]

Anon SEO alum was spot on -- what you do as an SEO intern doesn't really matter. The firm on the resume and network is much more important. Personally, my substantive work helped both during my 1L and 2L SAs -- got more out of them (offers from both, but also entrenched in my practice area) because I could hit the ground running (specifically in the practice area that I received most work from during my SEO summer). My experience wasn't normal though, and all that really matters is that full-time offer.

Skool, most SEO's get (or can get) 1L SA positions. SEO alum compete for the same 1L SA positions (ones with and without scholarships). URMs in big law are so rare that you'll be seeing the same folks in your own firm or at the other table for the rest of your career. That's why SEO is such a great asset.

[Anonymous User]

This may have already been answered, but does it matter when you apply to SEO? Does applying earlier give you an advantage?

[Anonymous User]

This may have already been answered, but does it matter when you apply to SEO? Does applying earlier give you an advantage?

No, because you won't get a decision until you deposit at a school.

[mommalee]

This may have already been answered, but does it matter when you apply to SEO? Does applying earlier give you an advantage?

No, because you won't get a decision until you deposit at a school.

Not sure this is completely true. It's not like they wait until you deposit to get your first round interview.

I think I applied in January and there is/was a list of staggered deadlines on the SEO website. Earlier is likely better, but not so early that you haven't even sent in your apps.

[BlakcMajikc]

This may have already been answered, but does it matter when you apply to SEO? Does applying earlier give you an advantage?

No, because you won't get a decision until you deposit at a school.

Not sure this is completely true. It's not like they wait until you deposit to get your first round interview.

I think I applied in January and there is/was a list of staggered deadlines on the SEO website. Earlier is likely better, but not so early that you haven't even sent in your apps.

Agreed. It was nice to have some T14 acceptances under the belt by the time I had the interview.

[subtle]

Are people debating applying to SEO or staying in their job another 2 months? SEO is the gift that keeps on giving. That's not drinking the kool-aid. It's just truth. I like my fellow alum am happy to answer questions if you have them, but if you decide to pass on applying for no good reason (good reasons, in my opinion, look like family issues, heath problems [that you can't work out], or your stock options are going to vest, etc.) then I don't know what to tell you...

[Anonymous User]

This may have already been answered, but does it matter when you apply to SEO? Does applying earlier give you an advantage?

No, because you won't get a decision until you deposit at a school.

Not sure this is completely true. It's not like they wait until you deposit to get your first round interview.

I think I applied in January and there is/was a list of staggered deadlines on the SEO website. Earlier is likely better, but not so early that you haven't even sent in your apps.

Agreed. It was nice to have some T14 acceptances under the belt by the time I had the interview.

Yes, which is exactly why applying early (as in now) isn't an advantage.

[Flokkness]

Interviewing tomorrow afternoon via Skype. Will be happy to answer any questions via PM.

Any c/o 2018 SEO movement for anybody else?

[tyang]

the SEO website says Chicago is an option, but I didn't see a Chicago office listed for any of the firms. is it safe to infer Chicago won't place as many folks as NY/DC, etc., and therefore I should list a larger city as a first option?

[Flokkness]

the SEO website says Chicago is an option, but I didn't see a Chicago office listed for any of the firms. is it safe to infer Chicago won't place as many folks as NY/DC, etc., and therefore I should list a larger city as a first option?

Yeah I'd just avoid listing Chicago, unless you really want to go (or stay) there, in which case an email to SEO might not be out of order.

I had Chicago as my #3 (having very intelligently chosen cities before reviewing firms) and am replacing it with another city's firms for the interview. Will just see how it goes!

[Flokkness]

Pretty straightforward Skype interview.

Interviewer said that decisions will be made in May.

Feel free to PM if any questions.

[Anonymous User]

If you guys know anyone who did SEO, be sure to reach out to them to write an alumni rec. It doesn't need to be on the level of a law school recommendation, but a couple hundred words on you would do wonders. 1 of those + a half decent interview and a T14 acceptance (T20 if you want TX or DC and go to UT, GW, etc.) is basically an auto accept unless the people who run the program really really disliked the SEO alum, which is a highly uncommon occurrence. They really stress to us alumni that we should contact them if we want to vouch for an applicant because a recommendation from someone they accepted to the program has a lot of cache with them.

[jw316]

If you guys know anyone who did SEO, be sure to reach out to them to write an alumni rec. It doesn't need to be on the level of a law school recommendation, but a couple hundred words on you would do wonders. 1 of those + a half decent interview and a T14 acceptance (T20 if you want TX or DC and go to UT, GW, etc.) is basically an auto accept unless the people who run the program really really disliked the SEO alum, which is a highly uncommon occurrence. They really stress to us alumni that we should contact them if we want to vouch for an applicant because a recommendation from someone they accepted to the program has a lot of cache with them.

Can you PM me please Anon?

[DiniMae]

For the alums, would you mind answering a few questions:

1. What are you paid? I read $1400 weekly many posts back, but is that net or gross?

2. Which firms are known for inviting SEOs back for 1L?

3. If anyone clerked for 1L, what was their experience?

Please PM if you feel these questions are sensitive.

Thanks

[Anonymous User]

1. What are you paid? I read $1400 weekly many posts back, but is that net or gross?

It can vary a lot. Net pay my year ranged from $1200-$1600/wk. Some firms on the lower end track hours and pay overtime, so it can adjust up.

2. Which firms are known for inviting SEOs back for 1L?

A lot firms don't bring in 1Ls as a matter of course, but will give SEOs (both their own and others) automatic callbacks come OCI. The only firm I remember that brought back an appreciable number of SEOs is Paul Weiss, but that may have changed since my time.

3. If anyone clerked for 1L, what was their experience?

I don't know what you mean. Are you talking about a judicial internship for 1L summer? If so, those positions aren't SEO specific, but I know a number of people who did it and all of them enjoyed it. The only thing there is to be careful not to intern for a judge you think you'd want to clerk for. Most judges won't hire former interns as clerks.

[Flokkness]

Huzzah, the thread lives! Thanks Anon.

Finding an SEO alum to write a LOR strikes me as being a bit tough. How/where does a 0L applicant meet SEO alums?

[rion91]

Checking in here I guess - hoping to crack T14 but Dec LSAT results will basically determine that.

[DiniMae]

1. What are you paid? I read $1400 weekly many posts back, but is that net or gross?

It can vary a lot. Net pay my year ranged from $1200-$1600/wk. Some firms on the lower end track hours and pay overtime, so it can adjust up.

2. Which firms are known for inviting SEOs back for 1L?

A lot firms don't bring in 1Ls as a matter of course, but will give SEOs (both their own and others) automatic callbacks come OCI. The only firm I remember that brought back an appreciable number of SEOs is Paul Weiss, but that may have changed since my time.

3. If anyone clerked for 1L, what was their experience?

I don't know what you mean. Are you talking about a judicial internship for 1L summer? If so, those positions aren't SEO specific, but I know a number of people who did it and all of them enjoyed it. The only thing there is to be careful not to intern for a judge you think you'd want to clerk for. Most judges won't hire former interns as clerks.

Thank you for all the great info! Yes, I meant intern as a 1L (thanks for clarifying).

I assume the pay difference is related to firm size and market location.....

[Anonymous User]

the SEO website says Chicago is an option, but I didn't see a Chicago office listed for any of the firms. is it safe to infer Chicago won't place as many folks as NY/DC, etc., and therefore I should list a larger city as a first option?

Yeah I'd just avoid listing Chicago, unless you really want to go (or stay) there, in which case an email to SEO might not be out of order.

I had Chicago as my #3 (having very intelligently chosen cities before reviewing firms) and am replacing it with another city's firms for the interview. Will just see how it goes!

Isn't Chi a new addition? I guess it's for UChi and NU students?
In your interview they ask which firms you prefer? GTK

[Flokkness]

the SEO website says Chicago is an option, but I didn't see a Chicago office listed for any of the firms. is it safe to infer Chicago won't place as many folks as NY/DC, etc., and therefore I should list a larger city as a first option?

Yeah I'd just avoid listing Chicago, unless you really want to go (or stay) there, in which case an email to SEO might not be out of order.

I had Chicago as my #3 (having very intelligently chosen cities before reviewing firms) and am replacing it with another city's firms for the interview. Will just see how it goes!

Isn't Chi a new addition? I guess it's for UChi and NU students?
In your interview they ask which firms you prefer? GTK

Would like to know as well. Nixed it for my interview to be on the safe side (which was the basis for my recommendation; because these are fairly tough interviews, the less you dangle out that smacks of poor prep the better), selecting another city with firms I could speak to instead. Should've asked during Q&A but was too busy crying inside.

But yeah, they asked me for 4-5 firms off the partner list that I'd like to work at. The other TLS poster I talked to who interviewed recently had the same question, so assuming it's the standard.

[Anonymous User]

.