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I want a career as a trial lawyer. I’ve realized this from working on trials during my clerkship and sixth-chairing (if you can call it that) a few trials with my firm. I can work an endless amount of hours preparing for or in trial but I have to really force myself to research, write motions, respond to discovery, and review documents for relevance. I seem to like every aspect of trial far better than what I do on a typical day as a civil litigator. Our group also only has a handful of trials a year, so there’s understandably not a lot of trial responsibility to spread around among associates.

Which employers, or categories of employers, would be best suited for getting immediate and substantive trial experience? I’d prefer civil but willing to do to criminal. Would also happily take a pay cut if it meant being in trial several times a year.

Several attorneys in my firm were AUSAs or FPDs, but based on my clerkship and what I’ve heard, not that many criminal cases go to trial in federal court anymore. Is working for a state agency the only option now to get multiple trials a year? Any firms, large or small, that would offer this? Our firm has co-counseled with V10s, boutiques, and regional firms. The experience for third to fifth year associates seems fairly similar when it comes to trial. Not sure where to look anymore.

Thanks in advance.

I was an AFD and, in my first month, I second chaired a jury trial and argued before the Seventh Circuit. By the end of my first year, I was first chairing, and I averaged 1 trial and 1 appellate oral argument per year for 15 years until about 3 years ago.

I'm in civil practice now, and trials are really rare & tend to happen only when the stakes aren't high (less than $100,000 dispute).

I have a friend who works as an attorney for a small city focusing on civil rights litigations (1983, ADA, etc.). Lots of those cases settle, but he does go to trial a few times a year - enough so that he knows all of the federal judges in his district quite well after about a decade of practice. He owns all of his cases, so he's lead counsel on all of those trials. He also moonlights on the plaintiff side, which gives him some extra $$$ and some other trials on occasion. Might be something to consider.

ninthcircuitattorney wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 8:29 pm

I was an AFD and, in my first month, I second chaired a jury trial and argued before the Seventh Circuit. By the end of my first year, I was first chairing, and I averaged 1 trial and 1 appellate oral argument per year for 15 years until about 3 years ago.

I'm in civil practice now, and trials are really rare & tend to happen only when the stakes aren't high (less than $100,000 dispute).

This seems to confirm my concern about FPDs. Was your experience typical? I think I could get substantive experience in one trial a year at my current firm, even if it’s just a pro bono case or small matter. Trying to see if there’s somewhere I could go and be in trial several times a year.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 23, 2025 10:07 am

I have a friend who works as an attorney for a small city focusing on civil rights litigations (1983, ADA, etc.). Lots of those cases settle, but he does go to trial a few times a year - enough so that he knows all of the federal judges in his district quite well after about a decade of practice. He owns all of his cases, so he's lead counsel on all of those trials. He also moonlights on the plaintiff side, which gives him some extra $$$ and some other trials on occasion. Might be something to consider.

Thanks. If you have any suggestions for identifying who regularly takes cases like these to trial, please let me know. Chambers seems litigation and defense oriented, and it only lists trial lawyers at the national level. It’s been hard to identify major players like these locally.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 23, 2025 11:33 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 23, 2025 10:07 am

I have a friend who works as an attorney for a small city focusing on civil rights litigations (1983, ADA, etc.). Lots of those cases settle, but he does go to trial a few times a year - enough so that he knows all of the federal judges in his district quite well after about a decade of practice. He owns all of his cases, so he's lead counsel on all of those trials. He also moonlights on the plaintiff side, which gives him some extra $$$ and some other trials on occasion. Might be something to consider.

Thanks. If you have any suggestions for identifying who regularly takes cases like these to trial, please let me know. Chambers seems litigation and defense oriented, and it only lists trial lawyers at the national level. It’s been hard to identify major players like these locally.

I might not have been clear - this is a city government job. You'll probably find an attorney that does this at any small city.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 23, 2025 11:26 am

ninthcircuitattorney wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 8:29 pm

I was an AFD and, in my first month, I second chaired a jury trial and argued before the Seventh Circuit. By the end of my first year, I was first chairing, and I averaged 1 trial and 1 appellate oral argument per year for 15 years until about 3 years ago.

I'm in civil practice now, and trials are really rare & tend to happen only when the stakes aren't high (less than $100,000 dispute).

This seems to confirm my concern about FPDs. Was your experience typical? I think I could get substantive experience in one trial a year at my current firm, even if it’s just a pro bono case or small matter. Trying to see if there’s somewhere I could go and be in trial several times a year.

Diff anon. But what do you enjoy about trial work? I ask that bc even if you'r not in trial as an AFPD, you are likely to have detention hearings and suppression hearings that have elements of the trial experience (with the benefit of not having some of the formalities). even some sentencing matters can be reminiscent to the trial exp.

I’m in trial 2 or 3 times a year as a plaintiffs employment lawyer. I know someone who was a da who now has like 81 jury trials at age 55. So you an do the math.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 23, 2025 8:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 23, 2025 11:26 am

ninthcircuitattorney wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 8:29 pm

I was an AFD and, in my first month, I second chaired a jury trial and argued before the Seventh Circuit. By the end of my first year, I was first chairing, and I averaged 1 trial and 1 appellate oral argument per year for 15 years until about 3 years ago.

I'm in civil practice now, and trials are really rare & tend to happen only when the stakes aren't high (less than $100,000 dispute).

This seems to confirm my concern about FPDs. Was your experience typical? I think I could get substantive experience in one trial a year at my current firm, even if it’s just a pro bono case or small matter. Trying to see if there’s somewhere I could go and be in trial several times a year.

Diff anon. But what do you enjoy about trial work? I ask that bc even if you'r not in trial as an AFPD, you are likely to have detention hearings and suppression hearings that have elements of the trial experience (with the benefit of not having some of the formalities). even some sentencing matters can be reminiscent to the trial exp.

How often and how long are those hearings? That’s a good point. I haven’t thought of time in court for evidentiary hearings. The mag judges held those, so I didn’t see any during my clerkship.

I like trials because of the larger lay jury audience, factual disputes, and witness examinations.

Lacepiece23 wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 23, 2025 9:18 pm

I’m in trial 2 or 3 times a year as a plaintiffs employment lawyer. I know someone who was a da who now has like 81 jury trials at age 55. So you an do the math.

Good data points here. I’ve thought of ADA roles. Alex Spiro and others started there, so I know it’s possible to bridge back into civil. Do you take associates with you to trial, and if so, do they have a substantive role?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 23, 2025 10:58 pm

I like trials because of the larger lay jury audience, factual disputes, and witness examinations.

So I agree with the earlier comment that there is still a decent amount of stand-up court work in federal criminal cases, FPD or AUSA, even when the case doesn’t go to trial. There is also a fair amount of writing/research as well. State criminal work is going to be lots of cases and much less writing. A friend of mine who was a county prosecutor before going to the USAO did ~55 state felony trials in I want to say about 6 or 7 years? But pay is pretty bad with a couple of exceptions.

(There may be more trials in the next 4 years, though.)

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 23, 2025 11:04 pm

Lacepiece23 wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 23, 2025 9:18 pm

I’m in trial 2 or 3 times a year as a plaintiffs employment lawyer. I know someone who was a da who now has like 81 jury trials at age 55. So you an do the math.

Good data points here. I’ve thought of ADA roles. Alex Spiro and others started there, so I know it’s possible to bridge back into civil. Do you take associates with you to trial, and if so, do they have a substantive role?

My associate did close and took the plaintiff in our last trial. I like to do opening but we switch roles a lot. He joined me to try cases and he is probably more talented than me so I let him shine.

Lacepiece23 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 24, 2025 12:10 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 23, 2025 11:04 pm

Lacepiece23 wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 23, 2025 9:18 pm

I’m in trial 2 or 3 times a year as a plaintiffs employment lawyer. I know someone who was a da who now has like 81 jury trials at age 55. So you an do the math.

Good data points here. I’ve thought of ADA roles. Alex Spiro and others started there, so I know it’s possible to bridge back into civil. Do you take associates with you to trial, and if so, do they have a substantive role?

My associate did close and took the plaintiff in our last trial. I like to do opening but we switch roles a lot. He joined me to try cases and he is probably more talented than me so I let him shine.

Thanks. That’s helpful. Do you mind sharing his year and salary range?

Also former AFPD here. State PD/ADA will have way more trial and courtroom time. I'd say I was in court about once a week and would average about 2 trials a year and 1 appeal argument a year, too. Did a lot of writing. I'd say, AUSA/AFPDs normally run 1-4 trials a year depending on the year - state folks do 4-5 times that. Also, in some states, the state equivalent can pay more (CA).

All the above is true, but only federal court provides the majesty of "To Kill a Mockingbird." By contrast, state court trials are held in humid, dumpy Courtrooms, where the staff really are patronage flunkees (think the useless cousins of some city elected official). I was an AFPD and loved being in court 3 or 4 times a week. As a civil litigator in state court, not so much.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 24, 2025 9:40 pm

Also former AFPD here. State PD/ADA will have way more trial and courtroom time. I'd say I was in court about once a week and would average about 2 trials a year and 1 appeal argument a year, too. Did a lot of writing. I'd say, AUSA/AFPDs normally run 1-4 trials a year depending on the year - state folks do 4-5 times that. Also, in some states, the state equivalent can pay more (CA).

How often would you be in court for evidentiary hearings?

ninthcircuitattorney wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 24, 2025 10:00 pm

All the above is true, but only federal court provides the majesty of "To Kill a Mockingbird." By contrast, state court trials are held in humid, dumpy Courtrooms, where the staff really are patronage flunkees (think the useless cousins of some city elected official). I was an AFPD and loved being in court 3 or 4 times a week. As a civil litigator in state court, not so much.

How often were you in trial? How would you compare the quality of opposing counsel while an AFPD and civil litigator?

As an AFPD, I was in court 3 or 4 times per week, I had a substantive hearing about 1 time per month, and a trial (usually for 1 to 2 weeks) plus an appellate oral argument 1 time per year.
In my major district, the typical AUSA was a T10 grad with a federal clerkship and they had tons of developmental support (e.g., "Learning Lunches" with a speaker from Main Justice). The AUSA's will make you work (and make you into a good litigator).

In civil practice, my opposing counsel is usually a T50 grad with 4 or 5 years of experience. They are good, but not great, litigators. However, state court judges are just as likely to ignore the substantive law as they are to follow it (no joke), and your legal writing is just less important because 50% of the time it's just a crap shoot.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 24, 2025 3:28 pm

Lacepiece23 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 24, 2025 12:10 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 23, 2025 11:04 pm

Lacepiece23 wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 23, 2025 9:18 pm

I’m in trial 2 or 3 times a year as a plaintiffs employment lawyer. I know someone who was a da who now has like 81 jury trials at age 55. So you an do the math.

Good data points here. I’ve thought of ADA roles. Alex Spiro and others started there, so I know it’s possible to bridge back into civil. Do you take associates with you to trial, and if so, do they have a substantive role?

My associate did close and took the plaintiff in our last trial. I like to do opening but we switch roles a lot. He joined me to try cases and he is probably more talented than me so I let him shine.

Thanks. That’s helpful. Do you mind sharing his year and salary range?

Sorry I’m outed on here and I don’t feel comfortable sharing what I pay him.

It's important to understand that not all trial experience is created equal. As an AFPD, you may be forced to go to trial simply because your client is stubborn and doesn't want to take a favorable plea, but he doesn't have any defense for you to present. Or you may have to go to trial because your client is overcharged and faces an extremely high sentence, but the government isn't offering any deals so you may as well go to trial. If all you want is reps in court, go for it. But a lot of those reps might be "empty calories."

I recommend the military JAG Corps, big district attorney's office (e.g., Manhattan, Cook County, Los Angeles), or DC's USAO's Superior Court Division ("DA's office."). All try boatloads of cases right off the bat (but DC Superior Court won't hire directly from law school; you need at least 1-year of experience (e.g., clerkship or biglaw).

A typical AUSA or AFD may only try 1-2 cases a year (most federal cases plead out because of mandatory minimums and feds only indict very strong cases).

ninthcircuitattorney wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 25, 2025 11:33 am

As an AFPD, I was in court 3 or 4 times per week, I had a substantive hearing about 1 time per month, and a trial (usually for 1 to 2 weeks) plus an appellate oral argument 1 time per year.
In my major district, the typical AUSA was a T10 grad with a federal clerkship and they had tons of developmental support (e.g., "Learning Lunches" with a speaker from Main Justice). The AUSA's will make you work (and make you into a good litigator).

In civil practice, my opposing counsel is usually a T50 grad with 4 or 5 years of experience. They are good, but not great, litigators. However, state court judges are just as likely to ignore the substantive law as they are to follow it (no joke), and your legal writing is just less important because 50% of the time it's just a crap shoot.

Thanks - this was helpful. I imagine then that the level of practice and judges for state criminal practice suffers from the same issues.

Lacepiece23 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 26, 2025 1:43 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 24, 2025 3:28 pm

Lacepiece23 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 24, 2025 12:10 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 23, 2025 11:04 pm

Lacepiece23 wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 23, 2025 9:18 pm

I’m in trial 2 or 3 times a year as a plaintiffs employment lawyer. I know someone who was a da who now has like 81 jury trials at age 55. So you an do the math.

Good data points here. I’ve thought of ADA roles. Alex Spiro and others started there, so I know it’s possible to bridge back into civil. Do you take associates with you to trial, and if so, do they have a substantive role?

My associate did close and took the plaintiff in our last trial. I like to do opening but we switch roles a lot. He joined me to try cases and he is probably more talented than me so I let him shine.

Thanks. That’s helpful. Do you mind sharing his year and salary range?

Sorry I’m outed on here and I don’t feel comfortable sharing what I pay him.

No worries, I get it. Just very curious. Lots of data on biglaw, AUSA/AFPD, and ADA/PDs, but I have no idea what’s normal for associates in plaintiff-side employment.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 26, 2025 2:17 am

It's important to understand that not all trial experience is created equal. As an AFPD, you may be forced to go to trial simply because your client is stubborn and doesn't want to take a favorable plea, but he doesn't have any defense for you to present. Or you may have to go to trial because your client is overcharged and faces an extremely high sentence, but the government isn't offering any deals so you may as well go to trial. If all you want is reps in court, go for it. But a lot of those reps might be "empty calories."

You’re absolutely right that both of these scenarios are common, but if you have no trial experience, I don’t think there really is any such thing as “empty calories.” Maybe this is just me and my own limitations, but I think there’s a huge amount of value in starting out in very basic cases where the outcome is relatively inevitable. I think a big part of trial ability is simply the muscle memory of having done it a number of times, so spending the time in court, talking to or in front of a jury, cross-examining witnesses, learning objections, etc. is valuable no matter whether you’re making the pro forma “beyond a reasonable doubt” defense or you actually have a viable defense. I personally find it easier to teach myself the complex law on my own as needed than to develop the fundamental trial skills outside of the courtroom.

Obviously this depends in part on what someone wants to do with that trial experience - where they want to be able to go and so on. If the goal is to end up back in big law, no, gun and drug trials aren’t going to be particularly relevant. But it sounds more like the OP is more interested in something they can do long-term that will have them going to trial a lot because they like that work better, than trying to develop the skills to advance (although constant trial work might change their mind!).

Plus, as others have already pointed out, you get a lot of useful non-trial courtroom experience in court as an AFPD through detention hearings, motion hearings, sentencings, and so on. (In fact, I’ve often heard people say that as an AFPD you have to come up with a broader definition of success than “winning at trial,” because that’s frankly uncommon). I’ve never been in big law so maybe that’s not actually that different, but those things were a huge part of developing my courtroom skills, and it sounds like the OP would enjoy work that’s in preparation for being in court generally, not just trial.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 26, 2025 2:17 am

It's important to understand that not all trial experience is created equal. As an AFPD, you may be forced to go to trial simply because your client is stubborn and doesn't want to take a favorable plea, but he doesn't have any defense for you to present. Or you may have to go to trial because your client is overcharged and faces an extremely high sentence, but the government isn't offering any deals so you may as well go to trial. If all you want is reps in court, go for it. But a lot of those reps might be "empty calories."

I'm not sure I agree with this framing. It is true that in criminal defense you will sometimes need to go forward on tough trial cases if your client says so. But I wouldn't characterize it as "empty calories" to go to trial i.e. do voir dire (if done by attorneys in your district), do jury addresses, practice cross examination on as many witnesses as the government puts on, and potentially put on your own witnesses.