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3L doing biglaw lit + Art. III clerkship after graduation (not looking for a second one). My GPA will likely be right on the cusp/a bit above the cum laude cut-off at my school (I can't know for sure what it will be, but I'm basing it off prior years). Currently slotted to take Fed Courts my last semester, but it's going to be a difficult class with a difficult curve. A not-stellar grade in that class could very well be the difference between latin honors or not. It'll also take time away from studying for other classes I'm taking. Is it worth it?

It seems like I'll learn a lot of useful things in Fed Courts, considering I'm clerking and litigating. A former clerk of my judge also told me that he took Fed Courts and thought it was worth it.

That being said, part of me feels like it would be silly to take a law school class that could potentially cost me latin honors, which would stick with me for my entire career. Part of me also wants to take it easy my last semester (Fed Courts wouldn't help with that).

Really agonizing over this. Thoughts? Thanks so much in advance.

You're smart, you've succeeded so far. Don't avoid Fed Courts because you don't think you can get an A. That mentality is just undermining yourself. Take the class, learn a lot, and make latin honors anyway. Or if you don't, you'll know you went down swinging.

Take fed courts. You already have the A3 clerkship which will presumably set you up for a decent job afterwards, so your focus should now be on being a good lawyer rather than being a good job applicant. You'll certainly be expected to be able to spot fed courts-y issues as a clerk/litigator, and you'll judged more for missing those issues than for not having Latin honors. I don't know who at my firm made cum laude or not, but I do know who had trouble understanding a complicated standing issue.

Note that some law schools don't even have Latin honors (mine included). I would have made it by any other school's metrics and I don't miss it at all. When applying for future jobs they'll really just be looking at your (presumably) decently-above-median GPA, recommendations, and experience.

What do you want to do long term?

I think you have one more semester as a student and a good learning job already lined up. I think you're fine taking it easy your last semester. You have plenty of time for grinding and striving after your last semester ever of being a student.

The answer is take fed courts and try to get an A. In the abstract you're not actually presented with a guaranteed either or situation. So, take the hard class and get the best grade is my advice.

Advice from a guy that’s 10 years out and probably amongst the least prestige obsessed person on this website.

I wouldn’t take it. Latin honors is something that follows you around for your whole career. It’s literally the only signal that anyone around my age cares about concerning how smart you were as a student. It matters in a subconscious type of way. The first thing every lawyer does when they engage with new opposing counsel is look at their bio. After judging them by their school, tbey then try to figure out if there is any other way to size up the lawyer.


Can’t believe I’m giving this advice but here it is.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 02, 2025 7:22 am

Take fed courts. You already have the A3 clerkship which will presumably set you up for a decent job afterwards, so your focus should now be on being a good lawyer rather than being a good job applicant. You'll certainly be expected to be able to spot fed courts-y issues as a clerk/litigator, and you'll judged more for missing those issues than for not having Latin honors. I don't know who at my firm made cum laude or not, but I do know who had trouble understanding a complicated standing issue.

Note that some law schools don't even have Latin honors (mine included). I would have made it by any other school's metrics and I don't miss it at all. When applying for future jobs they'll really just be looking at your (presumably) decently-above-median GPA, recommendations, and experience.

All the T14 schools have it... which tier band are you in?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 04, 2025 1:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 02, 2025 7:22 am

Take fed courts. You already have the A3 clerkship which will presumably set you up for a decent job afterwards, so your focus should now be on being a good lawyer rather than being a good job applicant. You'll certainly be expected to be able to spot fed courts-y issues as a clerk/litigator, and you'll judged more for missing those issues than for not having Latin honors. I don't know who at my firm made cum laude or not, but I do know who had trouble understanding a complicated standing issue.

Note that some law schools don't even have Latin honors (mine included). I would have made it by any other school's metrics and I don't miss it at all. When applying for future jobs they'll really just be looking at your (presumably) decently-above-median GPA, recommendations, and experience.

All the T14 schools have it... which tier band are you in?

UVA... You might be confusing Latin honors with coif.

Why are you so sure you'll bomb Fed Courts?

Do you know what the curve is?

At my LS, it was really generous. IIRC, it was 15% A, and 25% A-, or something. As opposed to 10% and 20% usually.

Latin Honors are a very, very big deal. They allow you to immediately and unambiguously signal you ranked at the top of your class.

Fed Courts is like every other law school course, in that it can be taught well or poorly. Like, 2/3s of my courses were taught poorly. Also, you don't learn much besides standing--which is very, very important, but it's, like, the first two weeks of classes or w/e.

I suggest taking the class, especially when you have a clerkship lined up. I'm 12 years out of law school, and I do not regret taking any "hard" classes, even if they hurt my overall GPA (and I didn't have a clerkship). To the point of opposing counsel sizing you up based on whether you have latin honors, I want opposing counsel to underestimate me (I'm a litigator)!

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 04, 2025 1:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 02, 2025 7:22 am

Take fed courts. You already have the A3 clerkship which will presumably set you up for a decent job afterwards, so your focus should now be on being a good lawyer rather than being a good job applicant. You'll certainly be expected to be able to spot fed courts-y issues as a clerk/litigator, and you'll judged more for missing those issues than for not having Latin honors. I don't know who at my firm made cum laude or not, but I do know who had trouble understanding a complicated standing issue.

Note that some law schools don't even have Latin honors (mine included). I would have made it by any other school's metrics and I don't miss it at all. When applying for future jobs they'll really just be looking at your (presumably) decently-above-median GPA, recommendations, and experience.

All the T14 schools have it... which tier band are you in?

YLS and SLS don't

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 04, 2025 1:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 02, 2025 7:22 am

Take fed courts. You already have the A3 clerkship which will presumably set you up for a decent job afterwards, so your focus should now be on being a good lawyer rather than being a good job applicant. You'll certainly be expected to be able to spot fed courts-y issues as a clerk/litigator, and you'll judged more for missing those issues than for not having Latin honors. I don't know who at my firm made cum laude or not, but I do know who had trouble understanding a complicated standing issue.

Note that some law schools don't even have Latin honors (mine included). I would have made it by any other school's metrics and I don't miss it at all. When applying for future jobs they'll really just be looking at your (presumably) decently-above-median GPA, recommendations, and experience.

All the T14 schools have it... which tier band are you in?

YLS and SLS don't

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 04, 2025 6:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 04, 2025 1:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 02, 2025 7:22 am

Take fed courts. You already have the A3 clerkship which will presumably set you up for a decent job afterwards, so your focus should now be on being a good lawyer rather than being a good job applicant. You'll certainly be expected to be able to spot fed courts-y issues as a clerk/litigator, and you'll judged more for missing those issues than for not having Latin honors. I don't know who at my firm made cum laude or not, but I do know who had trouble understanding a complicated standing issue.

Note that some law schools don't even have Latin honors (mine included). I would have made it by any other school's metrics and I don't miss it at all. When applying for future jobs they'll really just be looking at your (presumably) decently-above-median GPA, recommendations, and experience.

All the T14 schools have it... which tier band are you in?

YLS and SLS don't

And for the lower T14:

UVA and Berkeley do not have latin honors (only coif); Duke Law does it based only on 2L/3L grades which produces weird results as far as I've seen; Columbia Law did not have latin honors until the class of 2025, still no coif AFAIK

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 04, 2025 8:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 04, 2025 6:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 04, 2025 1:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 02, 2025 7:22 am

Take fed courts. You already have the A3 clerkship which will presumably set you up for a decent job afterwards, so your focus should now be on being a good lawyer rather than being a good job applicant. You'll certainly be expected to be able to spot fed courts-y issues as a clerk/litigator, and you'll judged more for missing those issues than for not having Latin honors. I don't know who at my firm made cum laude or not, but I do know who had trouble understanding a complicated standing issue.

Note that some law schools don't even have Latin honors (mine included). I would have made it by any other school's metrics and I don't miss it at all. When applying for future jobs they'll really just be looking at your (presumably) decently-above-median GPA, recommendations, and experience.

All the T14 schools have it... which tier band are you in?

YLS and SLS don't

And for the lower T14:

UVA and Berkeley do not have latin honors (only coif); Duke Law does it based only on 2L/3L grades which produces weird results as far as I've seen; Columbia Law did not have latin honors until the class of 2025, still no coif AFAIK

Columbia’s system actually makes it hard for me to “size up” their attorneys as another poster put it. I don’t view Kent as being like Latin honors/magna at other places since you only have to be in the top 10% once to make it. Well over 10% of the graduating class will have made Kent at some point. But on the other hand, RBG is too rare/hard to get so you just don’t see it that much.

Anyway, I’ve been interested in the diversity of opinions here. I still think OP will feel better looking back someday if they take Fed Courts. But maybe it’s a toxic mentality, maybe you should just enjoy your last semester and chill.

I didnt take it. It was a handicap clerking, for a few months.

You could buy and read a hornbook if you dont take the class.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 04, 2025 4:25 pm

Why are you so sure you'll bomb Fed Courts?

Do you know what the curve is?

At my LS, it was really generous. IIRC, it was 15% A, and 25% A-, or something. As opposed to 10% and 20% usually.

Latin Honors are a very, very big deal. They allow you to immediately and unambiguously signal you ranked at the top of your class.

Fed Courts is like every other law school course, in that it can be taught well or poorly. Like, 2/3s of my courses were taught poorly. Also, you don't learn much besides standing--which is very, very important, but it's, like, the first two weeks of classes or w/e.

OP here. I'm not sure I'll bomb it--what I do know is that the curve will be tough. The curve will be like for every other seminar class, but the competition will be higher. It's one of those classes at my school (Fed Courts, Admin, Evidence, Conflicts) that just tends to attract the hardest competition. I'm not saying I won't do well, but it's definitely not a sure thing that I will (plus it'll take effort away from other classes I'm taking next semester).

I do know that the professor is quite beloved and supposed to be great (though he is a visiting professor).

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 06, 2025 8:43 am

I didnt take it. It was a handicap clerking, for a few months.

You could buy and read a hornbook if you dont take the class.

Enough of a handicap that you'd recommend taking it? Not sure which way you're leaning based on your response, though it's greatly appreciated.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 04, 2025 4:25 pm

Why are you so sure you'll bomb Fed Courts?

Do you know what the curve is?

At my LS, it was really generous. IIRC, it was 15% A, and 25% A-, or something. As opposed to 10% and 20% usually.

Latin Honors are a very, very big deal. They allow you to immediately and unambiguously signal you ranked at the top of your class.

Fed Courts is like every other law school course, in that it can be taught well or poorly. Like, 2/3s of my courses were taught poorly. Also, you don't learn much besides standing--which is very, very important, but it's, like, the first two weeks of classes or w/e.

OP here.

The curve is standard for my school, but the class has a ton of extremely smart people in it. It's one of those classes at my school (along with Admin, Conflicts, sometimes Evidence) where the curve can be super tough. It's possible I do well, but it seems very likely I just pass.

That being said, the professor is supposed to be extremely well-liked. He's never taught Fed Courts here though, so take that as you may.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 06, 2025 8:43 am

I didnt take it. It was a handicap clerking, for a few months.

You could buy and read a hornbook if you dont take the class.

So are you saying I should take it or I shouldn't take it? Not sure which way you're coming out here.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 06, 2025 8:43 am

I didnt take it. It was a handicap clerking, for a few months.

You could buy and read a hornbook if you dont take the class.

.

That being said, the professor is supposed to be extremely well-liked. He's never taught Fed Courts here though, so take that as you may.

I feel like I know what school you are at haha — I am also here, also taking this class, and also in your position re: latin honors / clerking after graduation.

I'm still taking it, even though it might lose me latin honors. My judge has stressed that it's going to be very important for clerking — and I think it will just be a great class. I took this professor for CrimPro (if I know who you are talking about) and it was my absolute favorite class of law school. Learned as much about "the law" as a concept as I did about criminal procedure, and I imagine it will be the same (if not more so) for fed courts.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 4:56 pm

That being said, the professor is supposed to be extremely well-liked. He's never taught Fed Courts here though, so take that as you may.

I feel like I know what school you are at haha — I am also here, also taking this class, and also in your position re: latin honors / clerking after graduation.

I'm still taking it, even though it might lose me latin honors. My judge has stressed that it's going to be very important for clerking — and I think it will just be a great class. I took this professor for CrimPro (if I know who you are talking about) and it was my absolute favorite class of law school. Learned as much about "the law" as a concept as I did about criminal procedure, and I imagine it will be the same (if not more so) for fed courts.

Yep, we're taking the same class lol. Ugh I'm so torn. I really have heard such great things. I think it'll be a Sunday game-time decision lol.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 23, 2025 2:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 4:56 pm

That being said, the professor is supposed to be extremely well-liked. He's never taught Fed Courts here though, so take that as you may.

I feel like I know what school you are at haha — I am also here, also taking this class, and also in your position re: latin honors / clerking after graduation.

I'm still taking it, even though it might lose me latin honors. My judge has stressed that it's going to be very important for clerking — and I think it will just be a great class. I took this professor for CrimPro (if I know who you are talking about) and it was my absolute favorite class of law school. Learned as much about "the law" as a concept as I did about criminal procedure, and I imagine it will be the same (if not more so) for fed courts.

Yep, we're taking the same class lol. Ugh I'm so torn. I really have heard such great things. I think it'll be a Sunday game-time decision lol.

It seems like earning latin honors is important to you, and it is perfectly appropriate for you to value that. If you think missing out on latin hours would something that you'd regret, that regret may last a lot longer than the 2-3 month slightly steeper learning curve you'd have at the start of your clerkship from not taking the class. As someone who definitely made things harder for myself my 3L year than I needed to by taking harder classes because I thought I "needed to" take them, not saying no to some extracurricular stuff, etc., I regretted it at the time and still kinda do now 10 years post law school that I didn't have more fun my last year as a student. Don't take the class, bag your latin honors, and have as much fun as you can this semester. I do think that it would be a good idea to buy some kinda supplement on Fed Courts to read after you get through the bar so the key concepts are 100% alien to you on the job.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 23, 2025 2:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 4:56 pm

That being said, the professor is supposed to be extremely well-liked. He's never taught Fed Courts here though, so take that as you may.

I feel like I know what school you are at haha — I am also here, also taking this class, and also in your position re: latin honors / clerking after graduation.

I'm still taking it, even though it might lose me latin honors. My judge has stressed that it's going to be very important for clerking — and I think it will just be a great class. I took this professor for CrimPro (if I know who you are talking about) and it was my absolute favorite class of law school. Learned as much about "the law" as a concept as I did about criminal procedure, and I imagine it will be the same (if not more so) for fed courts.

Yep, we're taking the same class lol. Ugh I'm so torn. I really have heard such great things. I think it'll be a Sunday game-time decision lol.

Person who's taking the class here. I think you should come to the first class and see how you feel. You'll have decent buffer time to decide with the add/drop period

I’m an attorney who has been practicing 10+ years and clerked. It pains me to say this, but I agree with the other attorney who said skip fed courts to preserve Latin Honors. That’s something you can put on your resume for the next several jobs and a GPA by itself won’t mean much because each school is different. But Latin Honors tells future employers that you were probably top X in your class.

I clerked for as USDJ and never took fed courts to preserve my Latin honors. It didn’t handicap me. Just read an outline to spot the issues so you know what to look for later. You’ll figure it out while clerking. Just my two cents.