Page 1 of 1
Pushed out - help
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 10:17 am
by Anonymous User
I am a 7th year associate at v10 law firm in litigation. In every review I was told I was on track, multiple partners acted as if I'd make equity partner, I have billed 2500+ for 6 years and am on track to do so this year as well, and I have been cultivating client ties as much as possible. Yet I was just set down and told that I could either accept a permanent role (not to use a specific title to out my firm, but a role that basically pays senior associate pay with minor bumps forever) or look to leave the firm.
Once this happens, is this locked in? Is there any way to change peoples minds? Should I lateral to another firm and try to make partner there? Help!
Re: Pushed out - help
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 10:20 am
by Anonymous User
I think once the KE share partners have decided you're not share partner material, it's hard to change that decision (especially since that decision is being communicated pretty early to you).
-former KE NSP litigator
Re: Pushed out - help
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 11:23 am
by jhett
Sorry this happened to you. It's way easier to start fresh somewhere else than to change people's (negative) opinion of you. Plus, I don't think it's good for your psyche to always be sucking up to the decision-makers and worrying whether you did "good enough" to change their minds.
Re: Pushed out - help
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 11:44 am
by nealric
It's not like it's written in stone, but other posters are correct that you probably aren't changing minds any time soon. Developing a huge book of business is probably the only thing that would make them seriously reconsider (which is extremely unlikely, especially one big enough to make a v10 notice).
Assuming you are getting a Kirkland NSP or "Counsel" role at another firm, I'd tell them "yes", but start a soft search. Call people you know at other firms- do some lunches. Figure out if there may be another firm that would give you better upward development.
Re: Pushed out - help
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 12:30 pm
by Anonymous User
You are not being pushed out. Words have meaning. You were offered permanent counsel position instead of the promotion you wanted. A lot of people would call that a sweet deal. If you're disappointed and want to make partner, accept the job and start looking. You're not necessarily guaranteed equity partnership anywhere else tho, unless you have a portable book.
Re: Pushed out - help
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 2:55 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 10:17 am
I am a 7th year associate at v10 law firm in litigation. In every review I was told I was on track, multiple partners acted as if I'd make equity partner, I have billed 2500+ for 6 years and am on track to do so this year as well, and I have been cultivating client ties as much as possible. Yet I was just set down and told that I could either accept a permanent role (not to use a specific title to out my firm, but a role that basically pays senior associate pay with minor bumps forever) or look to leave the firm.
Once this happens, is this locked in? Is there any way to change peoples minds? Should I lateral to another firm and try to make partner there? Help!
I left my v10 because of watching this exact thing happen to plenty of very highly qualified people who, just like you, were being told along the way that they were going to make it, on the right track, etc.
Those that stayed after being told something similar to you -- they were all unsuccessful in changing anyone's mind -- if anything, the firm continued to tell them "oh yeah it is possible man you're doing great" to keep them staying around in their non-partner-track roles.
Just lateral -- why do you want to work for a bunch of lying rat bastards?
Re: Pushed out - help
Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2024 10:30 pm
by BaronBarrister
Law firms promise associates partner, which they shouldnt, and associates believe them, which they shouldnt. Why? The only reason you should be made partner is if it would be profitable for the firm. What entitles you to an equity stake in the firm if you don't have the business to justify it? What use is it to you to have the resources of a firm like that if you dint have the business? Emotional entitled and clueless people dont even begin to ask these basic questions before turning to mystical and arbitrary explanations. (“just don't have the right stuff,”). I blame the universities!
Re: Pushed out - help
Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:46 am
by Anonymous User
Tbf to OP, they said "partners acted as if I'd make equity partner". It also sounds like they understand that they misinterpreted that a bit.
Your choices are permanent NSP (making, what, $1-1.5mm plus, if not more?) with zero pressure to deal with clients, or try to move somewhere else. People make the latter work, but it's high risk. And anyway if you're always striving you'll never be happy -- once you make share partner, there are always people making more and you'll be bitter you don't have more shares (you'll be back here saying "senior partners acted as if I'd be put on the firm committee, but now they told me I have to either accept 100 shares or leave the firm").
It's obviously unpleasant to get pushed off the treadmill instead of stepping off yourself, but you had to get off at some point...
Re: Pushed out - help
Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2024 1:35 pm
by nealric
BaronBarrister wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 10:30 pm
Law firms promise associates partner, which they shouldnt, and associates believe them, which they shouldnt. Why? The only reason you should be made partner is if it would be profitable for the firm. What entitles you to an equity stake in the firm if you don't have the business to justify it? What use is it to you to have the resources of a firm like that if you dint have the business? Emotional entitled and clueless people dont even begin to ask these basic questions before turning to mystical and arbitrary explanations. (“just don't have the right stuff,”). I blame the universities!
Historically, people were made equity partner all the time without a book. You can't build a book meaningful to a large biglaw firm with an associate title. Plus, a lot of clients were really more firm clients than the client of any particular partner.
What has changed today is the free agency of partners and the widespread use of non-equity partnership. They hope that by making people "partner" without the equity, they build a book. Even better, anything they develop as a non-equity partner gets hoovered up by the equity partners. So they only equitize you if that's what it takes to keep you from moving your book elsewhere.
Re: Pushed out - help
Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2024 2:29 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:46 am
Tbf to OP, they said "partners
acted as if I'd make equity partner". It also sounds like they understand that they misinterpreted that a bit.
Your choices are permanent NSP (making, what, $1-1.5mm plus, if not more?) with zero pressure to deal with clients, or try to move somewhere else. People make the latter work, but it's high risk. And anyway if you're always striving you'll never be happy -- once you make share partner, there are always people making more and you'll be bitter you don't have more shares (you'll be back here saying "senior partners acted as if I'd be put on the firm committee, but now they told me I have to either accept 100 shares or leave the firm").
It's obviously unpleasant to get pushed off the treadmill instead of stepping off yourself, but you had to get off at some point...
More like 500-750k; hate to break it to you.
Re: Pushed out - help
Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:54 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 2:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:46 am
Tbf to OP, they said "partners
acted as if I'd make equity partner". It also sounds like they understand that they misinterpreted that a bit.
Your choices are permanent NSP (making, what, $1-1.5mm plus, if not more?) with zero pressure to deal with clients, or try to move somewhere else. People make the latter work, but it's high risk. And anyway if you're always striving you'll never be happy -- once you make share partner, there are always people making more and you'll be bitter you don't have more shares (you'll be back here saying "senior partners acted as if I'd be put on the firm committee, but now they told me I have to either accept 100 shares or leave the firm").
It's obviously unpleasant to get pushed off the treadmill instead of stepping off yourself, but you had to get off at some point...
More like 500-750k; hate to break it to you.
Sending OP good vibes. I know that’s gotta be tough.
But knowing you have a locked in 500k+ gig for the foreseeable future aint all that bad tbh.
Re: Pushed out - help
Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2024 4:06 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 2:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:46 am
Tbf to OP, they said "partners
acted as if I'd make equity partner". It also sounds like they understand that they misinterpreted that a bit.
Your choices are permanent NSP (making, what, $1-1.5mm plus, if not more?) with zero pressure to deal with clients, or try to move somewhere else. People make the latter work, but it's high risk. And anyway if you're always striving you'll never be happy -- once you make share partner, there are always people making more and you'll be bitter you don't have more shares (you'll be back here saying "senior partners acted as if I'd be put on the firm committee, but now they told me I have to either accept 100 shares or leave the firm").
It's obviously unpleasant to get pushed off the treadmill instead of stepping off yourself, but you had to get off at some point...
More like 500-750k; hate to break it to you.
As a non-equity partner at a firm around the middle of the V100, I can confirm this is correct. It's still plenty of money (and I don't bill anything close to 2500 hours a year), but I don't think most non-equity partners are making anything close to a million a year.
Re: Pushed out - help
Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2024 4:18 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 4:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 2:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:46 am
Tbf to OP, they said "partners
acted as if I'd make equity partner". It also sounds like they understand that they misinterpreted that a bit.
Your choices are permanent NSP (making, what, $1-1.5mm plus, if not more?) with zero pressure to deal with clients, or try to move somewhere else. People make the latter work, but it's high risk. And anyway if you're always striving you'll never be happy -- once you make share partner, there are always people making more and you'll be bitter you don't have more shares (you'll be back here saying "senior partners acted as if I'd be put on the firm committee, but now they told me I have to either accept 100 shares or leave the firm").
It's obviously unpleasant to get pushed off the treadmill instead of stepping off yourself, but you had to get off at some point...
More like 500-750k; hate to break it to you.
As a non-equity partner at a firm around the middle of the V100, I can confirm this is correct. It's still plenty of money (and I don't bill anything close to 2500 hours a year), but I don't think most non-equity partners are making anything close to a million a year.
Why would V50 NSP money be would be reflective of permanent NSP status at V10? In that territory PPP is ballpark half what it is in the V10. It's not like permanent NSP is automatic -- it's saved for the best just outside making equity. Nobody is saying anything about "most non-equity partners." It's about the very small subset that are kept on permanently.
OP would be the best one to actually provide the rest of us some solid info about V10 permanent NSP pay.
Re: Pushed out - help
Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2024 7:03 pm
by Anonymous User
Equity partner compensation doesn’t scale to non-equity partner compensation (much as it doesn’t scale to associate compensation). I would not be surprised one bit if V10 non-equity partners make somewhat more than V50 non-equity partners on average. But I would be shocked if they are making double what I make or clearing seven figures.
Re: Pushed out - help
Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2024 7:09 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 7:03 pm
Equity partner compensation doesn’t scale to non-equity partner compensation (much as it doesn’t scale to associate compensation). I would not be surprised one bit if V10 non-equity partners make somewhat more than V50 non-equity partners on average. But I would be shocked if they are making double what I make or clearing seven figures.
I know for a fact that at least some V10 NEPs make seven figures. That still makes sense economically, too. If you're billing your NEPs out at ~$1.5k and asking them to bill as much as associates, you can clear a seven figure salary, write offs of ~20%, and still make
profits per lawyer that is close to your typical V10 RPL.
Re: Pushed out - help
Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2024 4:21 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 7:09 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 7:03 pm
Equity partner compensation doesn’t scale to non-equity partner compensation (much as it doesn’t scale to associate compensation). I would not be surprised one bit if V10 non-equity partners make somewhat more than V50 non-equity partners on average. But I would be shocked if they are making double what I make or clearing seven figures.
I know for a fact that at least some V10 NEPs make seven figures. That still makes sense economically, too. If you're billing your NEPs out at ~$1.5k and asking them to bill as much as associates, you can clear a seven figure salary, write offs of ~20%, and still make
profits per lawyer that is close to your typical V10 RPL.
P,W counsels make $1m.
Re: Pushed out - help
Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2024 7:27 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 4:21 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 7:09 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 7:03 pm
Equity partner compensation doesn’t scale to non-equity partner compensation (much as it doesn’t scale to associate compensation). I would not be surprised one bit if V10 non-equity partners make somewhat more than V50 non-equity partners on average. But I would be shocked if they are making double what I make or clearing seven figures.
I know for a fact that at least some V10 NEPs make seven figures. That still makes sense economically, too. If you're billing your NEPs out at ~$1.5k and asking them to bill as much as associates, you can clear a seven figure salary, write offs of ~20%, and still make
profits per lawyer that is close to your typical V10 RPL.
P,W counsels make $1m.
Make or can make? Those are two pretty different statements.
Anyway, point is that counsel/NEP roles can vary widely in pay. At a minimum, many are at around the senior associate level. But YMMV.