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Penn Law PEP
Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2023 9:10 am
by ilrsbsresearch
Starts today. Figured I would make this thread so people can post any updates
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:53 pm
by Anonymous User
ilrsbsresearch wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 9:10 am
Starts today. Figured I would make this thread so people can post any updates
Rising 3L here. I hope all of you are taking advantage of every possible loophole to apply to firms in addition to the few apps you get through this program (diversity, smaller offices, less popular markets). Either that or just disregard the “rules” entirely. OCS does NOT have your best interests at heart, at least if you’re above median. Penn students do strike out and firms will come close to filling up before official OCI.
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:08 am
by Anonymous User
OCI strike-outs that I know of for class of 2024:
1. KJD, straight B+'s, focused on Philly without having joined Penn Law for Philly, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
2. Work experience, mostly A-'s, only bid DC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
3. Work experience, mostly B+'s, some A-'s, bid Philly and NYC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
4. KJD, broad mix of grades, bid NYC and Cali, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
Last year's class was large, competing against large classes, without institutional knowledge about the importance of pre-OCI. While PEP gets more people to participate in early recruiting, it also limits those who could have otherwise applied more broadly.
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:11 am
by Anonymous User
PEP screeners received 06.14.2023:
- Cravath NYC
Skadden NYC
Weil NYC
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:32 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:08 am
OCI strike-outs that I know of for class of 2024:
1. KJD, straight B+'s, focused on Philly without having joined Penn Law for Philly, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
2. Work experience, mostly A-'s, only bid DC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
3. Work experience, mostly B+'s, some A-'s, bid Philly and NYC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
4. KJD, broad mix of grades, bid NYC and Cali, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
Last year's class was large, competing against large classes, without institutional knowledge about the importance of pre-OCI. While PEP gets more people to participate in early recruiting, it also limits those who could have otherwise applied more broadly.
How do you know even the approximate grades of each person who struck out? (Guessing?) I know one strikeout who doesn’t fit any of these grade/market/pre-OCI profiles.
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:41 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:08 am
OCI strike-outs that I know of for class of 2024:
1. KJD, straight B+'s, focused on Philly without having joined Penn Law for Philly, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
2. Work experience, mostly A-'s, only bid DC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
3. Work experience, mostly B+'s, some A-'s, bid Philly and NYC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
4. KJD, broad mix of grades, bid NYC and Cali, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
Last year's class was large, competing against large classes, without institutional knowledge about the importance of pre-OCI. While PEP gets more people to participate in early recruiting, it also limits those who could have otherwise applied more broadly.
This list seems like pure speculation (OP probably is guessing on everything but KJD status). The useful info to take from this post: striking out isn’t about grades, and it doesn’t often happen to NYC transactional focused people. The bar for NYC transactional is low even for white, non-diverse candidates.
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:46 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:08 am
OCI strike-outs that I know of for class of 2024:
1. KJD, straight B+'s, focused on Philly without having joined Penn Law for Philly, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
2. Work experience, mostly A-'s, only bid DC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
3. Work experience, mostly B+'s, some A-'s, bid Philly and NYC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
4. KJD, broad mix of grades, bid NYC and Cali, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
Last year's class was large, competing against large classes, without institutional knowledge about the importance of pre-OCI. While PEP gets more people to participate in early recruiting, it also limits those who could have otherwise applied more broadly.
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:49 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:08 am
OCI strike-outs that I know of for class of 2024:
1. KJD, straight B+'s, focused on Philly without having joined Penn Law for Philly, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
2. Work experience, mostly A-'s, only bid DC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
3. Work experience, mostly B+'s, some A-'s, bid Philly and NYC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
4. KJD, broad mix of grades, bid NYC and Cali, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
Last year's class was large, competing against large classes, without institutional knowledge about the importance of pre-OCI. While PEP gets more people to participate in early recruiting, it also limits those who could have otherwise applied more broadly.
In addition to this, I personally know several students who only received 1-2 offers and had very stressful recruiting experiences. Also, lol at the idea that extracurriculars matter at OCI beyond being signals of diversity status and sometimes practice group interest.
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:21 am
by Anonymous User
What I would do if I was a 2L this year:
1. Apply via PEP to top participating firms, while applying heavily to firms that don't participate in PEP and are exempt from OCS restrictions.
2. If I don't get an offer I'm excited about via PEP, go fully into pre-OCI apps in spite of the PEP rules. No firm is going to tattle on you and few spots (especially litigation) will be left at OCI time.
Seconding the point above that OCS does not have individual students' best interests in mind throughout this process. That, and many of the counselors are just incompetent. You should only be leaning heavily on OCS if you have below a 3.2-3.3.
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:51 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:08 am
OCI strike-outs that I know of for class of 2024:
1. KJD, straight B+'s, focused on Philly without having joined Penn Law for Philly, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
2. Work experience, mostly A-'s, only bid DC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
3. Work experience, mostly B+'s, some A-'s, bid Philly and NYC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
4. KJD, broad mix of grades, bid NYC and Cali, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
Last year's class was large, competing against large classes, without institutional knowledge about the importance of pre-OCI. While PEP gets more people to participate in early recruiting, it also limits those who could have otherwise applied more broadly.
Unless you work for the school I don't know how you would know these details, other than K-JD status. I know at least one person who did pre-OCI interviews and struck out.
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:56 am
by Anonymous User
This thread has good advice. Official OCI should be a back-up plan at most. My firm will be nearly full by official OCI.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=314360
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:18 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:51 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:08 am
OCI strike-outs that I know of for class of 2024:
1. KJD, straight B+'s, focused on Philly without having joined Penn Law for Philly, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
2. Work experience, mostly A-'s, only bid DC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
3. Work experience, mostly B+'s, some A-'s, bid Philly and NYC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
4. KJD, broad mix of grades, bid NYC and Cali, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
Last year's class was large, competing against large classes, without institutional knowledge about the importance of pre-OCI. While PEP gets more people to participate in early recruiting, it also limits those who could have otherwise applied more broadly.
Unless you work for the school I don't know how you would know these details, other than K-JD status. I know at least one person who did pre-OCI interviews and struck out.
If I worked for the school, there would be a much longer list... This is what these individuals told me directly happened to them while I was asking for help preparing for PEP, and I have no reason to believe that they would lie to me about striking out.
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:24 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:18 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:51 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:08 am
OCI strike-outs that I know of for class of 2024:
1. KJD, straight B+'s, focused on Philly without having joined Penn Law for Philly, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
2. Work experience, mostly A-'s, only bid DC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
3. Work experience, mostly B+'s, some A-'s, bid Philly and NYC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
4. KJD, broad mix of grades, bid NYC and Cali, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
Last year's class was large, competing against large classes, without institutional knowledge about the importance of pre-OCI. While PEP gets more people to participate in early recruiting, it also limits those who could have otherwise applied more broadly.
Unless you work for the school I don't know how you would know these details, other than K-JD status. I know at least one person who did pre-OCI interviews and struck out.
If I worked for the school, there would be a much longer list... This is what these individuals told me directly happened to them while I was asking for help preparing for PEP, and I have no reason to believe that they would lie to me about striking out.
Fair enough. Surprised you were able to find four students who wanted to discuss not getting big law jobs.
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:30 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:08 am
OCI strike-outs that I know of for class of 2024:
1. KJD, straight B+'s, focused on Philly without having joined Penn Law for Philly, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
2. Work experience, mostly A-'s, only bid DC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
3. Work experience, mostly B+'s, some A-'s, bid Philly and NYC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
4. KJD, broad mix of grades, bid NYC and Cali, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
Last year's class was large, competing against large classes, without institutional knowledge about the importance of pre-OCI. While PEP gets more people to participate in early recruiting, it also limits those who could have otherwise applied more broadly.
The advice to completely disregard the career services office or whatever that place is called is solid but most people will still be fine in OCI as long as they bid respectively. If you are medianish or below, focus on the large less selective New York firms. Do not bid DC at all or any V10 firm besides Kirkland. Do not waste any bids on Philly firms unless you really want to stay in Philly and can explain why. Dechert and Morgan Lewis are both surprisingly selective for their Philly offices. Lol at “Penn Law for Philly” though. No one cares about that and I have not even heard of that before this post. The Philly firms will want you to articulate why you want to be in Philadelphia or just see that you are from the general area. It’s pretty hard to entirely strike out at OCI if you just bid appropriately.
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:56 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:08 am
OCI strike-outs that I know of for class of 2024:
1. KJD, straight B+'s, focused on Philly without having joined Penn Law for Philly, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
2. Work experience, mostly A-'s, only bid DC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
3. Work experience, mostly B+'s, some A-'s, bid Philly and NYC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
4. KJD, broad mix of grades, bid NYC and Cali, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
Last year's class was large, competing against large classes, without institutional knowledge about the importance of pre-OCI. While PEP gets more people to participate in early recruiting, it also limits those who could have otherwise applied more broadly.
The advice to completely disregard the career services office or whatever that place is called is solid but most people will still be fine in OCI as long as they bid respectively. If you are medianish or below, focus on the large less selective New York firms. Do not bid DC at all or any V10 firm besides Kirkland. Do not waste any bids on Philly firms unless you really want to stay in Philly and can explain why. Dechert and Morgan Lewis are both surprisingly selective for their Philly offices. Lol at “Penn Law for Philly” though. No one cares about that and I have not even heard of that before this post. The Philly firms will want you to articulate why you want to be in Philadelphia or just see that you are from the general area. It’s pretty hard to entirely strike out at OCI if you just bid appropriately.
If you are worried about striking out bid ny and say you're interested in transactional practices. If you really want lit and you're worried then until you get an offer maybe have a few firms where you still express preference for corporate/transactional. IMO it was hard to know how to bid appropriately last year without first failed bid data and with the unknown effects of pre-OCI, and the same will be true this year (first failed bid data will not be reliable even if provided because of the changes with PEP). I didn't get screeners with a lot of firms I wanted to interview with.
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:59 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:08 am
OCI strike-outs that I know of for class of 2024:
1. KJD, straight B+'s, focused on Philly without having joined Penn Law for Philly, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
2. Work experience, mostly A-'s, only bid DC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
3. Work experience, mostly B+'s, some A-'s, bid Philly and NYC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
4. KJD, broad mix of grades, bid NYC and Cali, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
Last year's class was large, competing against large classes, without institutional knowledge about the importance of pre-OCI. While PEP gets more people to participate in early recruiting, it also limits those who could have otherwise applied more broadly.
The advice to completely disregard the career services office or whatever that place is called is solid but most people will still be fine in OCI as long as they bid respectively. If you are medianish or below, focus on the large less selective New York firms. Do not bid DC at all or any V10 firm besides Kirkland. Do not waste any bids on Philly firms unless you really want to stay in Philly and can explain why. Dechert and Morgan Lewis are both surprisingly selective for their Philly offices. Lol at “Penn Law for Philly” though. No one cares about that and I have not even heard of that before this post. The Philly firms will want you to articulate why you want to be in Philadelphia or just see that you are from the general area. It’s pretty hard to entirely strike out at OCI if you just bid appropriately.
Don't agree with the V10/median comment. Especially if NY transactional. SImpson is perfectly attainable from median, for example.
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 1:48 pm
by Anonymous User
.
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:17 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:59 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:08 am
OCI strike-outs that I know of for class of 2024:
1. KJD, straight B+'s, focused on Philly without having joined Penn Law for Philly, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
2. Work experience, mostly A-'s, only bid DC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
3. Work experience, mostly B+'s, some A-'s, bid Philly and NYC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
4. KJD, broad mix of grades, bid NYC and Cali, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
Last year's class was large, competing against large classes, without institutional knowledge about the importance of pre-OCI. While PEP gets more people to participate in early recruiting, it also limits those who could have otherwise applied more broadly.
The advice to completely disregard the career services office or whatever that place is called is solid but most people will still be fine in OCI as long as they bid respectively. If you are medianish or below, focus on the large less selective New York firms. Do not bid DC at all or any V10 firm besides Kirkland. Do not waste any bids on Philly firms unless you really want to stay in Philly and can explain why. Dechert and Morgan Lewis are both surprisingly selective for their Philly offices. Lol at “Penn Law for Philly” though. No one cares about that and I have not even heard of that before this post. The Philly firms will want you to articulate why you want to be in Philadelphia or just see that you are from the general area. It’s pretty hard to entirely strike out at OCI if you just bid appropriately.
Don't agree with the V10/median comment. Especially if NY transactional. SImpson is perfectly attainable from median, for example.
I agree. You can get a transactional gig from any V10 firm besides Wachtell at median from Penn. But in this market I wouldn’t waste multiple bids on firms in that range if you are sitting around median. The people who strike out at median are people who use 9 bids on the V10 and a few on DC.
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:33 pm
by Anonymous User
from the thread linked above (
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=314360):
"I would also note that if you are nondiverse, targeting litigation, and don't have out of this world grades (top 10% or better), weird things can happen. I feel like my T14's career services office wasn't really upfront about how tough being a nondiverse litigation candidate can be, and it nearly led to me striking out. I got lucky and landed something I was really happy with, but got nothing throughout all of pre-OCI and did quite poorly at OCI itself as well."
True IMO
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:36 pm
by Anonymous User
Mostly A's, a few A-s/one B. Paul, Weiss callback.
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 4:07 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:33 pm
from the thread linked above (
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=314360):
"I would also note that if you are nondiverse, targeting litigation, and don't have out of this world grades (top 10% or better), weird things can happen. I feel like my T14's career services office wasn't really upfront about how tough being a nondiverse litigation candidate can be, and it nearly led to me striking out. I got lucky and landed something I was really happy with, but got nothing throughout all of pre-OCI and did quite poorly at OCI itself as well."
True IMO
Lit is significantly harder to get but this is way over the top. Come on, you don’t need to be anywhere near top 10% at Penn to get a decent biglaw lit job. If you are around top 1/3 and you can interview reasonably well, you will be fine. I got multiple V10 lit offers from Penn and I was probably a touch below top 1/3 and not on LR. But I did have good work experience. Awkward non-diverse KJDs are the people I personally think struggle the most.
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 4:19 pm
by Anonymous User
Practice area interest is so underrated as a factor in OCI. Obviously lit vs. transactional but if you have credible reasons/narrative for being into a more specific area (e.g., antitrust in DC) you can outperform people with much better grades.
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 4:23 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 4:07 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:33 pm
from the thread linked above (
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=314360):
"I would also note that if you are nondiverse, targeting litigation, and don't have out of this world grades (top 10% or better), weird things can happen. I feel like my T14's career services office wasn't really upfront about how tough being a nondiverse litigation candidate can be, and it nearly led to me striking out. I got lucky and landed something I was really happy with, but got nothing throughout all of pre-OCI and did quite poorly at OCI itself as well."
True IMO
Lit is significantly harder to get but this is way over the top. Come on, you don’t need to be anywhere near top 10% at Penn to get a decent biglaw lit job. If you are around top 1/3 and you can interview reasonably well, you will be fine. I got multiple V10 lit offers from Penn and I was probably a touch below top 1/3 and not on LR. But I did have good work experience. Awkward non-diverse KJDs are the people I personally think struggle the most.
What is the GPA for top 1/3 after 1L
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 4:40 pm
by Anonymous User
Any other firm screener invites out?
Re: Penn Law PEP
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 5:40 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:17 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:59 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:08 am
OCI strike-outs that I know of for class of 2024:
1. KJD, straight B+'s, focused on Philly without having joined Penn Law for Philly, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
2. Work experience, mostly A-'s, only bid DC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
3. Work experience, mostly B+'s, some A-'s, bid Philly and NYC, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
4. KJD, broad mix of grades, bid NYC and Cali, didn't participate in pre-OCI.
Last year's class was large, competing against large classes, without institutional knowledge about the importance of pre-OCI. While PEP gets more people to participate in early recruiting, it also limits those who could have otherwise applied more broadly.
The advice to completely disregard the career services office or whatever that place is called is solid but most people will still be fine in OCI as long as they bid respectively. If you are medianish or below, focus on the large less selective New York firms. Do not bid DC at all or any V10 firm besides Kirkland. Do not waste any bids on Philly firms unless you really want to stay in Philly and can explain why. Dechert and Morgan Lewis are both surprisingly selective for their Philly offices. Lol at “Penn Law for Philly” though. No one cares about that and I have not even heard of that before this post. The Philly firms will want you to articulate why you want to be in Philadelphia or just see that you are from the general area. It’s pretty hard to entirely strike out at OCI if you just bid appropriately.
Don't agree with the V10/median comment. Especially if NY transactional. SImpson is perfectly attainable from median, for example.
I agree. You can get a transactional gig from any V10 firm besides Wachtell at median from Penn. But in this market I wouldn’t waste multiple bids on firms in that range if you are sitting around median. The people who strike out at median are people who use 9 bids on the V10 and a few on DC.
As a V10 transactional associate... median from Penn unlikely to get a non-diverse male-identifying candidate any V10 offers in this economy. A non-diverse female-identifying candidate could potentially get K&E. Paul Weiss and Skadden would be moderate reaches, and the rest would be significant reaches.
The last couple years of median netting multiple V10 offers were a historical aberration. We have been getting a large volume of pre-OCI resumes at my firm, and I have been interviewing candidates. That means I see their resumes. Based on what I've seen, the standards for a CB in summer 2023 are meaningfully higher than what is claimed above. If I were a rising 2L right now, I would be a lot more wary.