USAO AND JAG RESERVIST Forum

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AUSA3B

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USAO AND JAG RESERVIST

Post by AUSA3B » Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:25 pm

Hello,

I have offers at a USAO office and also to be a JAG reservist. To preserve anonymity, I won’t reveal anything else about my background, except that I received both offers around the same time.

Would it be crazy to ask USAO if I can delay my start date by a few months to do initial military training? Should I ask USAO what they prefer? Or should I decline military altogether (obviously USAO is the priority here).

Even if USAO agreed, am I crazy to try juggling both jobs at the same time? I have no prior military experience.

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Dcc617

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Re: USAO AND JAG RESERVIST

Post by Dcc617 » Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:36 pm

Why do you want to do JAG? A lot of JAG attorneys hate being JAG.

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Re: USAO AND JAG RESERVIST

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:24 am

In my USAO, there are at least a few JAG reservists. Some came from JAG to the USAO, but one or two at least are reservists without other military service. My understanding is that an AUSA job is a decent job to pair with being a reservist, because you get additional military leave to accommodate your reservist requirements that does not count against personal/sick leave.

AUSA3B

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Re: USAO AND JAG RESERVIST

Post by AUSA3B » Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:04 pm

Interesting. (I’m OP). Are most managers supportive of line ausa’s taking military leave?

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Re: USAO AND JAG RESERVIST

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:29 pm

AUSA3B wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:04 pm
Interesting. (I’m OP). Are most managers supportive of line ausa’s taking military leave?
I don’t know if I’ve seen line attorneys taking military leave, but I’ve definitely seen staff take military leave and it’s supported. Not going to claim there’s no hypocrisy in the federal government but generally they’re sticklers for complying with that kind of requirement (we uphold federal law, it would be pretty terrible if we were reluctant to follow it).

Whether military leave actually creates any issues for you wrt workload and relationship with your supervisor will depend on the office and the supervisor and so on. Generally, I’m assuming you’d know about the timing far enough in advance that you could probably work it out, but if you get a cranky judge you might get trial set for your first week back after leave or something. And if your office is swamped, juggling things could get inconvenient. I will say that there’s a huge culture of covering each others conflicts - being a cog in the federal engine means we’re all fungible - so logistically you could probably make it work. Whether it would be miserable also probably depends on the office caseload and your consequent workload.

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AUSA3B

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Re: USAO AND JAG RESERVIST

Post by AUSA3B » Fri Jun 09, 2023 3:05 am

So to circle back to my original question—

My thought was to propose delaying my start by 4 months to do the real military leave, and then once I’m back it’s (supposedly) one weekend a month /two weeks a year.

I feel like they’d be happy to have me get this out of the way before starting, right?

Here’s the other side of my question—could the very act of me asking them lead them to think I’m somehow less committed to usao (even though it’s legally protected, could it somehow be a bad look?)

I’m just not sure what to do here. My spouse thinks this will piss off the management, even if they let me do it.

But I think I’d regret not asking—it’s something I’ve always wanted to do. And if I hate it, then I’ll grin and bear it until I’m eligible for IRR.

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Re: USAO AND JAG RESERVIST

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 09, 2023 7:20 am

Do you know for certain that the timing will work out on JAG’s end - that is, you can start the military training instantly? (It always sounds like people doing JAG have to wait a bit before starting training, but that may not be the same for the reserves.)

Assuming yes, I don’t think the act of asking will look bad/make you look less committed. I think partly the issue is what/how you will be asking. If you ask, “can I take time to do this military training?” it puts them in a difficult position - legally they have to let you, asking suggests they wouldn’t let you, it could be awkward. If you’ve absolutely decided to do JAG, it might make sense to say “when would it make the most sense to take my leave for military training?”

If you haven’t absolutely decided, you could say something like, “I also have an offer from JAG reserves and I want to take it, but am committed to making this job my priority and am unsure if both is feasible. How can I best coordinate it with this job/what are the pitfalls/how have you seen that work in the past?” it might lead to a more productive discussion that lets them raise concerns and lets you evaluate what will work best for you. They can share their concerns without violating the law by telling you no, and you can get a better sense of how they would regard the whole matter.

(Like if they say “of course we would accommodate that but here are a bunch of logistical issues that previous reservists have struggled with that make it more complicated in this setting that you really should be aware of” vs “of course we would accommodate that, we can always make it work”).

If from what they say you decide not to do it, I can’t imagine that simply raising the question will create problems for you (if it does, that’s a sign that this management is likely problematic on a range of issues. You have the right to figure out if the job is going to work for you and most managers want you to do that).

Will doing both piss them off? I mean it’s hard to say without knowing the office management and workload and so on. Again, IME is that everyone is well aware that they need to accommodate this and doesn’t want it to affect how an employee is treated. But I can’t guarantee everyone in the USAO in question is emotionally on board with this or won’t be a jerk.

(Final caveat, I don’t know if there’s a limit on how much they have to accommodate you, in the way that there are limits to ADA or religious belief accommodations, where employers only have to accommodate you to a certain point. Which is another reason to raise it as “what are the potential problems?” and get that info first.)

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Re: USAO AND JAG RESERVIST

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 10, 2023 12:49 am

(OP again).

I think that answer makes the most sense. I’ve been cleared to do JAG for a number of months now and have a spot in school that would correspond roughly with my USAO start date (they would also let me defer up to a year).

I think I would prefer to go the “productive conversation” route and make it clear to USAO that while I find this combination interesting, and potentially fulfilling, I do want to know potential pitfalls, and could be convinced not to do it.

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Re: USAO AND JAG RESERVIST

Post by Antetrust » Sat Jun 10, 2023 9:30 am

Most employers value military experience. In particular, I imagine that USAO would encourage and support this move.

As for workload, I can tell you from my active duty experience in the Marine Corps that reservists don't get much work or responsibility. This makes sense when you think about it: if you had to delegate work that you are personally responsible for to someone who only works with you one weekend a month, how much and what kind of work would you give them? (A: low-import tedious work.)

I should add that my experience was primarily with enlisted folks (who are not JAG), so YMMV.

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Re: USAO AND JAG RESERVIST

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jun 15, 2023 7:08 pm

I am a JAG reservist, in a major metropolitan city, and a government trial counsel who litigated in federal court alongside AUSAs on cases. I did my initial training about 1 year into my government job so I have firsthand experience with your situation. Before I go into my pros and cons, I will start with this --> I do not regret going JAG Reserve and I am glad that I made the necessary accommodations to be able to do JAG Reserve. While I did not appreciate it at the time I commissioned, going JAG Reserve was the ultimate wild card I never knew I could have at my disposal that would catapult my career.

To answer your questions:

-Timing: If USAO is willing to push your start date for training, that may be the cleanest way to handle it. If not, the decision on whether you ask the recruiting office to push your direct commissioning course back is a choice you will need to make. When I did my training, I had to work with my supervisor to reassign all my cases temporarily (you will learn that the attorney on the PACER docket needs to be physically available at all times and during your absence a new trial counsel will need to enter appearance).
(Keep in mind: USERRA requires your employer give you time off when you are serving in a Title 10 status. That is not optional. You should call the recruiting office if you need help articulating that in an artful manner, in writing to your employer.) Remember: you are not the first JAG to be an AUSA, and you will not be the last. (See below)

-AUSAs are JAG Reservists: In the last two months, I have met 3 current JAG Reservists in (what the internet has deemed) THE most competitive/elite AUSA office in the country. They are able to do their service and still excel as AUSAs. They are super successful at what they do.

- Is it 1 weekend a month/2 weeks a year?: For the most part, yes. As a trial lawyer, I did not have much flexibility with my schedule. I stuck to my 1 weekend a month and two training weeks a year. My unit is great because "training" in the legal sense could be a Cyber Law Course & a weekend at whatever military base is hosting the course or it can be a training exercise with my unit at a base in close distance to my home. There were BigLaw attorneys in my unit, they certainly kept to 1 weekend a month, 2 weeks a year. If they were able to do it and meet their billables, you can too.


PROS:
(i) Government Service: if you plan to have a future in government, military service will set you FAR ahead of the rest in conjunction with our AUSA credentials. Many unit/department heads in DOJ are former JAGs or have ties to the military, and they are more than happy to tell you about it.

(ii) Legal Training/Opportunities to Practice: depending on the service (Army and AF especially) you have the option to "take additional orders" which can include specialized educational courses I mentioned before, or you can actually take pretty awesome assignments (2 weeks in Europe or 6 months in Okinawa) both are legitimate offers I saw promoted (but did not apply to) during my time as a JAG reservist. I know people (in my unit) who did both assignments. Again--I chose not to because I had a schedule to keep.

(iii) Job Security: if you find yourself out of a job, you can apply for a 1 year assignment at a number of bases within the United States or abroad if there's an available opportunity. That security feels good, especially in times of economic uncertainty.

(iv) Service: You may choose to go into private practice after your time as an AUSA, when that time comes you will search for a way to serve your community or "give back" in some way. The military is an honorable way to help Soldiers, I'm shocked at the difference I have made in people's lives. That is the consensus among those of us in uniform and in corporate america.

CONS/DIFFICULTIES:
(i) Planning: You must plan. Get your schedule, plan out your military leave. Hand them to HR in advance and manage your litigation schedule accordingly. I had 0 qualms about standing up in federal court during a conference and telling a federal judge "Your Honor, I have drill that weekend so a Monday morning conference is less than ideal. Counsel has [or has not...which has happened] agreed that we push the conference back a few days." I have NEVER been denied an extension of time if I clearly articulated my service obligations.

(ii) Communication: You will need to be clear with your supervisors: "I am on military orders from X to Y, I will be offline from 9-5 but available for emergency in the evening as needed. I have taken the following steps to reallocate my work and do not expect any pop-ups in my absence."

I could literally go on and on. But the bottom line: I commissioned as a JAG Reservist and was a government attorney when I did so. It was honestly one of the best decisions of my career. You'd also be surprised how much JAG Reserve helped in the government exit options, but that is a conversation for another day.

Best of luck to you and I hope to see you in formation one day!

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Re: USAO AND JAG RESERVIST

Post by AUSA3B » Fri Jun 16, 2023 7:29 pm

(I’m OP) Here’s part 2 of the question—

I also need to convince my spouse to be onboard with this commitment.

Right now I’m pushing (1) the home loan benefit (2) the extra check + insurance every month and (3) maybe school benefits which spouse could put towards grad school.

Our plan is for me to eventually return to private practice—do you all think being a veteran would help with building a book of business? Has anyone seen a tangible benefit in that regard?

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Re: USAO AND JAG RESERVIST

Post by LittleRedCorvette » Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:00 pm

AUSA3B wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 7:29 pm
(I’m OP) Here’s part 2 of the question—

I also need to convince my spouse to be onboard with this commitment.

Right now I’m pushing (1) the home loan benefit (2) the extra check + insurance every month and (3) maybe school benefits which spouse could put towards grad school.

Our plan is for me to eventually return to private practice—do you all think being a veteran would help with building a book of business? Has anyone seen a tangible benefit in that regard?
There are many different JD mortgage programs for zero down and things like that, so I wouldn't put too much value in the home loan benefit. I assume the AUSA will provide insurance, so I'm not sure on the value there. When I was a reservist, I think I got $850 a month or something like that. Whether that is worth it or not is up to you; I found that I would have gladly paid $850 bucks to not waste my time for an entire weekend.

I don't think being a veteran will help with building a book of business. It won't hurt, either, but you'll have to be the same kind of "BD" person to tap into whatever networks being a vet might afford you in order to see that benefit, and if you're that type of person, you'd be able to do that anyways via non-vet avenues.

I'm not sure your spouse can use the school benefits -- is that a new program or something?

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Re: USAO AND JAG RESERVIST

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jun 18, 2023 2:07 am

Has anyone here done a clerkship (Art. I (CAAF) or Art. III) and found it useful in their JAG practice?

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