Baker Botts Houston Forum

[Anonymous User]

Not just interested in "firm trajectory" -- I'm a mid/senior corporate/M&A associate in Houston at one of the out-of-town firms (KE, LW, STB, GDC types) thinking about making a move to a more "Houston firm" that may have (1) better (any?) culture, (2) better (any?) partnership prospects, (3) better people and (4) better (any?) life.

I generally like the work but think a change of scenery is the right move.

Any thoughts on BB Houston? Any first-hand experience there would be great. V&E doesn't interest me as it seems like the morals there are lacking (I'm not Amish but I've heard enough stories of debauchery at all levels to turn me off) and it is a sweatshop.

Any alternatives you might recommend besides BB? NRF seems also like a non-starter for corporate, but I could be persuaded.

Thanks.

[Anonymous User]

If you're concerned about "debauchery" - BB houston is not right for you.

[Anonymous User]

If you're concerned about "debauchery" - BB houston is not right for you.

Would you mind expanding?

[Anonymous User]

Not just interested in "firm trajectory" -- I'm a mid/senior corporate/M&A associate in Houston at one of the out-of-town firms (KE, LW, STB, GDC types) thinking about making a move to a more "Houston firm" that may have (1) better (any?) culture, (2) better (any?) partnership prospects, (3) better people and (4) better (any?) life.

I generally like the work but think a change of scenery is the right move.

Any thoughts on BB Houston? Any first-hand experience there would be great. V&E doesn't interest me as it seems like the morals there are lacking (I'm not Amish but I've heard enough stories of debauchery at all levels to turn me off) and it is a sweatshop.

Any alternatives you might recommend besides BB? NRF seems also like a non-starter for corporate, but I could be persuaded.

Thanks.

In house, but I almost took a job there years ago and have had friends and family members who have been there at various levels. I've also been a client.

1) BB was traditionally known for a very staid and reserved culture (V&E was traditionally a bit more fratty and harder charging). 30 years ago, it was the type of place where you'd get in trouble for leaving your office without your suit jacket on. However, like most of the OG Texas firms, there's been a lot of churn over the last few years so a lot of the personalities have likely changed. You really have to get to know people you'd be working for to evaluate well. I don't doubt there are pockets of debauchery (especially within M&A) but client events are more likely to be at the symphony than a club.

2) Partnership prospects may be better, but if you are still 3 years out nobody can say what your odds are. As noted, there's been a decent amount of turnover, which could work in your favor in the sense they may be short partners but could work against you if a rainmaker leaves and work is drying up.

3) See above. I know some great people there and some people I wouldn't necessarily want to work with. Hard to make a blanket assertion. The out of town firms do tend to attract people who are in it for a short term cash grab (especially Kirkland with big signing bonuses and comp guarantees).

4) I think w/l may be marginally better, but again it's hard to say. There are 2600+ hr billing people at BB too.15 years ago, BB would have been near top of the list for any major deal happening in Texas. Today, it's way down the league tables which may have as a byproduct just a little less of a firehose of work coming in. But it's certainly still going to be biglaw at the end of the day.

[Anonymous User]

Not just interested in "firm trajectory" -- I'm a mid/senior corporate/M&A associate in Houston at one of the out-of-town firms (KE, LW, STB, GDC types) thinking about making a move to a more "Houston firm" that may have (1) better (any?) culture, (2) better (any?) partnership prospects, (3) better people and (4) better (any?) life.

I generally like the work but think a change of scenery is the right move.

Any thoughts on BB Houston? Any first-hand experience there would be great. V&E doesn't interest me as it seems like the morals there are lacking (I'm not Amish but I've heard enough stories of debauchery at all levels to turn me off) and it is a sweatshop.

Any alternatives you might recommend besides BB? NRF seems also like a non-starter for corporate, but I could be persuaded.

Thanks.

In house, but I almost took a job there years ago and have had friends and family members who have been there at various levels. I've also been a client.

1) BB was traditionally known for a very staid and reserved culture (V&E was traditionally a bit more fratty and harder charging). 30 years ago, it was the type of place where you'd get in trouble for leaving your office without your suit jacket on. However, like most of the OG Texas firms, there's been a lot of churn over the last few years so a lot of the personalities have likely changed. You really have to get to know people you'd be working for to evaluate well. I don't doubt there are pockets of debauchery (especially within M&A) but client events are more likely to be at the symphony than a club.

2) Partnership prospects may be better, but if you are still 3 years out nobody can say what your odds are. As noted, there's been a decent amount of turnover, which could work in your favor in the sense they may be short partners but could work against you if a rainmaker leaves and work is drying up.

3) See above. I know some great people there and some people I wouldn't necessarily want to work with. Hard to make a blanket assertion. The out of town firms do tend to attract people who are in it for a short term cash grab (especially Kirkland with big signing bonuses and comp guarantees).

4) I think w/l may be marginally better, but again it's hard to say. There are 2600+ hr billing people at BB too.15 years ago, BB would have been near top of the list for any major deal happening in Texas. Today, it's way down the league tables which may have as a byproduct just a little less of a firehose of work coming in. But it's certainly still going to be biglaw at the end of the day.

Thanks a lot; this is really helpful. I have considered in house, but I actually like this job (and also like the earning) and want to land at a firm where I can practice for many years with some reasonable certainty.

Do you have anywhere else in mind that you could potentially recommend? I keep hearing Haynes and Boone come up as a nice place.

[Anonymous User]

Not just interested in "firm trajectory" -- I'm a mid/senior corporate/M&A associate in Houston at one of the out-of-town firms (KE, LW, STB, GDC types) thinking about making a move to a more "Houston firm" that may have (1) better (any?) culture, (2) better (any?) partnership prospects, (3) better people and (4) better (any?) life.

I generally like the work but think a change of scenery is the right move.

Any thoughts on BB Houston? Any first-hand experience there would be great. V&E doesn't interest me as it seems like the morals there are lacking (I'm not Amish but I've heard enough stories of debauchery at all levels to turn me off) and it is a sweatshop.

Any alternatives you might recommend besides BB? NRF seems also like a non-starter for corporate, but I could be persuaded.

Thanks.

In house, but I almost took a job there years ago and have had friends and family members who have been there at various levels. I've also been a client.

1) BB was traditionally known for a very staid and reserved culture (V&E was traditionally a bit more fratty and harder charging). 30 years ago, it was the type of place where you'd get in trouble for leaving your office without your suit jacket on. However, like most of the OG Texas firms, there's been a lot of churn over the last few years so a lot of the personalities have likely changed. You really have to get to know people you'd be working for to evaluate well. I don't doubt there are pockets of debauchery (especially within M&A) but client events are more likely to be at the symphony than a club.

2) Partnership prospects may be better, but if you are still 3 years out nobody can say what your odds are. As noted, there's been a decent amount of turnover, which could work in your favor in the sense they may be short partners but could work against you if a rainmaker leaves and work is drying up.

3) See above. I know some great people there and some people I wouldn't necessarily want to work with. Hard to make a blanket assertion. The out of town firms do tend to attract people who are in it for a short term cash grab (especially Kirkland with big signing bonuses and comp guarantees).

4) I think w/l may be marginally better, but again it's hard to say. There are 2600+ hr billing people at BB too.15 years ago, BB would have been near top of the list for any major deal happening in Texas. Today, it's way down the league tables which may have as a byproduct just a little less of a firehose of work coming in. But it's certainly still going to be biglaw at the end of the day.

Thanks a lot; this is really helpful. I have considered in house, but I actually like this job (and also like the earning) and want to land at a firm where I can practice for many years with some reasonable certainty.

Do you have anywhere else in mind that you could potentially recommend? I keep hearing Haynes and Boone come up as a nice place.

I think Haynes and Boone is more likely to give you the culture shift you are looking for than BB. I know quite a few current and former partners there, and they are all good people. It's still biglaw with all the work drivers that entails, but I think they have a fairly healthy culture as far as biglaw goes.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe irrelevant to you in corporate, but at least anecdotally, it feels like the health of the big three legacy Texas firms has deteriorated in part due to the loss of litigation practice to firms like Kirkland (eating at them from above) and boutiques (eating from below). So they're less and less integrated and less and less full service over time.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe irrelevant to you in corporate, but at least anecdotally, it feels like the health of the big three legacy Texas firms has deteriorated in part due to the loss of litigation practice to firms like Kirkland (eating at them from above) and boutiques (eating from below). So they're less and less integrated and less and less full service over time.

Most of the out of town firms aren't making THAT much of a dent in litigation (not enough to seriously undermine the health of the legacy firm). Kirkland only has ~20 litigators in Houston and the others are mostly even more corporate heavy. It's the loss of corporate work to Kirkland and its ilk that is really hitting the Big 3 hard. However, I do agree that the boutiques have displaced biglaw as the go-to for serious litigation, which has likely deprived local biglaw of a lot of their most lucrative cases.

[Anonymous User]

As an outsider it does feel like firms like Baker Botts do pretty well for a revolving door with Texas political positions—maybe because it's a big state and there are less prominent law firms then something like New York or California where there are a ton? Didn't the person in charge of the Baker Botts Houston just get appointed to the Supreme Court of Texas and a ton of Baker Botts associates end up working in high up Texas state government positions?

Kind of wondering if there is some sort of connection or "in" with BB in Texas politics that is worth considering or changes the culture at all.

[Anonymous User]

After finding out that they are searching for a new managing partner, I'm curious to see how the future of the firm will play out. All of the candidates in running are also talking about potential mergers. Given how the last Texas firm that merged faired (NRF), is BB going to be any different or is it going to sink further down?