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Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 9:28 pm
by moxcoal
I’m seeing rumblings about Gunderson laying off first years recently and think they need to be dragged a bit more.. These are associates with just a few months of experience. No doubt they had their pick of firms when recruiting (not sure Cooley would’ve been much better, but maybe WSGR or Fenwick?) and now they’re left out to dry. Fire partners or anyone above their third year who’ll have a remote chance interviewing for a new job. I guess the firm is really in some sht if they need that extra buck.. avoid. Any other firms low enough to can first years out there?
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 9:44 pm
by Sackboy
What makes it even more cruel is that, from what I understand, these were first years who had their starts deferred to January... They've literally practiced for like 4 months...
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 10:30 pm
by emc91
Sackboy wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:44 pm
What makes it even more cruel is that, from what I understand, these were first years who had their starts deferred to January... They've literally practiced for like 4 months...
How do you even decide who to lay off at that point? I don’t think I was staffed on a deal until I was like 8 weeks in.
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 11:19 pm
by Res Ipsa Loquitter
Biglaw in general is an overrated place to work. When juniors are just a number and all the partners feel entitled to make millions, stuff like this happens.
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 1:08 pm
by Anonymous User
Sackboy wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:44 pm
What makes it even more cruel is that, from what I understand, these were first years who had their starts deferred to January... They've literally practiced for like 4 months...
What happens to first years who are laid off with very little work experience? Would they just hang tight and wait until the market picks back up? Is it possible to lateral back into biglaw if you have to park into midlaw during a recession? I'm unaffected (so far) and am experiencing third hand stress from this
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 1:29 pm
by existentialcrisis
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 1:08 pm
Sackboy wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:44 pm
What makes it even more cruel is that, from what I understand, these were first years who had their starts deferred to January... They've literally practiced for like 4 months...
What happens to first years who are laid off with very little work experience? Would they just hang tight and wait until the market picks back up? Is it possible to lateral back into biglaw if you have to park into midlaw during a recession? I'm unaffected (so far) and am experiencing third hand stress from this
It's pretty much always possible to lateral from "midlaw" to biglaw. But I don't really think super junior associates who get laid off are in a particularly good position to land jobs with these more regional firms, particularly in recession.
Davis & Gilbert won't be anxious to snatch up a junior who spent a few months making closing checklists at SullCrom just because they came from S&C.
If big firms are laying folks off, I wouldn't expect business would be booming at the more regional firms either.
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 1:34 pm
by Anonymous User
Unfortunately, from what I've heard/read many people that this happened to during 2008 never really recovered (just re biglaw). Makes what firms like Gunderson are doing even more unforgivable/cruel. Law students should remember the partnerships that made clear they absolutely dgaf about you or your futures.
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 10:02 pm
by Anonymous User
existentialcrisis wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 1:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 1:08 pm
Sackboy wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:44 pm
What makes it even more cruel is that, from what I understand, these were first years who had their starts deferred to January... They've literally practiced for like 4 months...
What happens to first years who are laid off with very little work experience? Would they just hang tight and wait until the market picks back up? Is it possible to lateral back into biglaw if you have to park into midlaw during a recession? I'm unaffected (so far) and am experiencing third hand stress from this
It's pretty much always possible to lateral from "midlaw" to biglaw. But I don't really think super junior associates who get laid off are in a particularly good position to land jobs with these more regional firms, particularly in recession.
Davis & Gilbert won't be anxious to snatch up a junior who spent a few months making closing checklists at SullCrom just because they came from S&C.
If big firms are laying folks off, I wouldn't expect business would be booming at the more regional firms either.
There’s been some industry press reporting that midlaw demand is up a lot due to greater rate flexibility, but of course it’s hard to tell what’s true and what’s glorified advertising where that’s concerned
Also worth noting that EC/VC work is not especially transferable to non-CA midlaw (not that first-years would have transferable skills anyway)
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 5:28 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:02 pm
existentialcrisis wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 1:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 1:08 pm
Sackboy wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:44 pm
What makes it even more cruel is that, from what I understand, these were first years who had their starts deferred to January... They've literally practiced for like 4 months...
What happens to first years who are laid off with very little work experience? Would they just hang tight and wait until the market picks back up? Is it possible to lateral back into biglaw if you have to park into midlaw during a recession? I'm unaffected (so far) and am experiencing third hand stress from this
It's pretty much always possible to lateral from "midlaw" to biglaw. But I don't really think super junior associates who get laid off are in a particularly good position to land jobs with these more regional firms, particularly in recession.
Davis & Gilbert won't be anxious to snatch up a junior who spent a few months making closing checklists at SullCrom just because they came from S&C.
If big firms are laying folks off, I wouldn't expect business would be booming at the more regional firms either.
There’s been some industry press reporting that midlaw demand is up a lot due to greater rate flexibility, but of course it’s hard to tell what’s true and what’s glorified advertising where that’s concerned
Also worth noting that EC/VC work is not especially transferable to non-CA midlaw (not that first-years would have transferable skills anyway)
Midlaw demand really is up. The whole biglaw business model is being tested. Firms are dumping juniors in part because clients don’t want to pay for them.
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 8:54 am
by existentialcrisis
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat May 13, 2023 5:28 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:02 pm
existentialcrisis wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 1:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 1:08 pm
Sackboy wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:44 pm
What makes it even more cruel is that, from what I understand, these were first years who had their starts deferred to January... They've literally practiced for like 4 months...
What happens to first years who are laid off with very little work experience? Would they just hang tight and wait until the market picks back up? Is it possible to lateral back into biglaw if you have to park into midlaw during a recession? I'm unaffected (so far) and am experiencing third hand stress from this
It's pretty much always possible to lateral from "midlaw" to biglaw. But I don't really think super junior associates who get laid off are in a particularly good position to land jobs with these more regional firms, particularly in recession.
Davis & Gilbert won't be anxious to snatch up a junior who spent a few months making closing checklists at SullCrom just because they came from S&C.
If big firms are laying folks off, I wouldn't expect business would be booming at the more regional firms either.
There’s been some industry press reporting that midlaw demand is up a lot due to greater rate flexibility, but of course it’s hard to tell what’s true and what’s glorified advertising where that’s concerned
Also worth noting that EC/VC work is not especially transferable to non-CA midlaw (not that first-years would have transferable skills anyway)
Midlaw demand really is up. The whole biglaw business model is being tested. Firms are dumping juniors in part because clients don’t want to pay for them.
Idk this may be true (and may be true specifically in ECVC, which I wouldn’t know) but first of all people have been saying the “clients won’t pay for Biglaw juniors anymore” thing since like at least 2011 and I’ve never really seen any actual evidence of it.
Second of all, look it may be true about the rate sensitivity thing, and it would even kind of make sense, but 90% of the time I hear stuff about that, it’s coming from smaller firm marketing materials.
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 2:42 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat May 13, 2023 5:28 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:02 pm
existentialcrisis wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 1:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 1:08 pm
Sackboy wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:44 pm
What makes it even more cruel is that, from what I understand, these were first years who had their starts deferred to January... They've literally practiced for like 4 months...
What happens to first years who are laid off with very little work experience? Would they just hang tight and wait until the market picks back up? Is it possible to lateral back into biglaw if you have to park into midlaw during a recession? I'm unaffected (so far) and am experiencing third hand stress from this
It's pretty much always possible to lateral from "midlaw" to biglaw. But I don't really think super junior associates who get laid off are in a particularly good position to land jobs with these more regional firms, particularly in recession.
Davis & Gilbert won't be anxious to snatch up a junior who spent a few months making closing checklists at SullCrom just because they came from S&C.
If big firms are laying folks off, I wouldn't expect business would be booming at the more regional firms either.
There’s been some industry press reporting that midlaw demand is up a lot due to greater rate flexibility, but of course it’s hard to tell what’s true and what’s glorified advertising where that’s concerned
Also worth noting that EC/VC work is not especially transferable to non-CA midlaw (not that first-years would have transferable skills anyway)
Midlaw demand really is up. The whole biglaw business model is being tested. Firms are dumping juniors in part because clients don’t want to pay for them.
yeah why wouldn’t you do the exact same job for less money and less prestige
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Sun May 14, 2023 2:41 pm
by Anonymous User
existentialcrisis wrote: ↑Sat May 13, 2023 8:54 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat May 13, 2023 5:28 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:02 pm
existentialcrisis wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 1:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 1:08 pm
Sackboy wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:44 pm
What makes it even more cruel is that, from what I understand, these were first years who had their starts deferred to January... They've literally practiced for like 4 months...
What happens to first years who are laid off with very little work experience? Would they just hang tight and wait until the market picks back up? Is it possible to lateral back into biglaw if you have to park into midlaw during a recession? I'm unaffected (so far) and am experiencing third hand stress from this
It's pretty much always possible to lateral from "midlaw" to biglaw. But I don't really think super junior associates who get laid off are in a particularly good position to land jobs with these more regional firms, particularly in recession.
Davis & Gilbert won't be anxious to snatch up a junior who spent a few months making closing checklists at SullCrom just because they came from S&C.
If big firms are laying folks off, I wouldn't expect business would be booming at the more regional firms either.
There’s been some industry press reporting that midlaw demand is up a lot due to greater rate flexibility, but of course it’s hard to tell what’s true and what’s glorified advertising where that’s concerned
Also worth noting that EC/VC work is not especially transferable to non-CA midlaw (not that first-years would have transferable skills anyway)
Midlaw demand really is up. The whole biglaw business model is being tested. Firms are dumping juniors in part because clients don’t want to pay for them.
Idk this may be true (and may be true specifically in ECVC, which I wouldn’t know) but first of all people have been saying the “clients won’t pay for Biglaw juniors anymore” thing since like at least 2011 and I’ve never really seen any actual evidence of it.
Second of all, look it may be true about the rate sensitivity thing, and it would even kind of make sense, but 90% of the time I hear stuff about that, it’s coming from smaller firm marketing materials.
Junior associate billing rates, and junior associate salaries, are way up since 2011. I have seen multiple situations where our clients complained about or flat out declined our rates, and also specifically complained about junior rates. and my practice is heavily slanted toward PE, who are the clients you'd think would be most willing to pay.
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 11:04 am
by Anonymous User
Not if you factor in inflation. 2011 was a while ago. Inflation since 2011 to today is a cumulative 35%.
1st year biglaw salary in 2011 was $160K. Adjusted for inflation, that would be $216K, which is actually very slightly above the current 1st year salary of $215K. So actually, junior salary has stayed almost exactly the same and in fact has decreased a negligible amount.
I'm not quite as sure on the billing rates, since those vary by firms and aren't as public. But unless they have increased by more than 35% since 2011, then they haven't actually increased in terms of real prices.
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 2:40 pm
by Anonymous User
The firm told incoming summers that they won’t be guaranteed full time offers and should look for other options if possible… Stay away.
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 3:49 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 2:40 pm
The firm told incoming summers that they won’t be guaranteed full time offers and should look for other options if possible… Stay away.
Was that in an email or verbally in a meeting? I’m just trying to picture the scene.. what a way to kick off the summer
- moxcoal (I can’t with these quote buttons on mobile..)
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 4:12 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 3:49 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 2:40 pm
The firm told incoming summers that they won’t be guaranteed full time offers and should look for other options if possible… Stay away.
Was that in an email or verbally in a meeting? I’m just trying to picture the scene.. what a way to kick off the summer
- moxcoal (I can’t with these quote buttons on mobile..)
Meeting
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 5:42 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 11:04 am
Not if you factor in inflation. 2011 was a while ago. Inflation since 2011 to today is a cumulative 35%.
1st year biglaw salary in 2011 was $160K. Adjusted for inflation, that would be $216K, which is actually very slightly above the current 1st year salary of $215K. So actually, junior salary has stayed almost exactly the same and in fact has decreased a negligible amount.
I'm not quite as sure on the billing rates, since those vary by firms and aren't as public. But unless they have increased by more than 35% since 2011, then they haven't actually increased in terms of real prices.
Billing rates have gone up a ton. In 2011, top partners were at around $1000/hour. Now, second years get billed out at that rate and partners are up to $2000. Firms are definitely coming away with more money these days compared to salary payouts.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424 ... 2028728234
https://news.bloomberglaw.com/business- ... f-beholder
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 5:45 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat May 13, 2023 2:42 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat May 13, 2023 5:28 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:02 pm
existentialcrisis wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 1:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 1:08 pm
Sackboy wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:44 pm
What makes it even more cruel is that, from what I understand, these were first years who had their starts deferred to January... They've literally practiced for like 4 months...
What happens to first years who are laid off with very little work experience? Would they just hang tight and wait until the market picks back up? Is it possible to lateral back into biglaw if you have to park into midlaw during a recession? I'm unaffected (so far) and am experiencing third hand stress from this
It's pretty much always possible to lateral from "midlaw" to biglaw. But I don't really think super junior associates who get laid off are in a particularly good position to land jobs with these more regional firms, particularly in recession.
Davis & Gilbert won't be anxious to snatch up a junior who spent a few months making closing checklists at SullCrom just because they came from S&C.
If big firms are laying folks off, I wouldn't expect business would be booming at the more regional firms either.
There’s been some industry press reporting that midlaw demand is up a lot due to greater rate flexibility, but of course it’s hard to tell what’s true and what’s glorified advertising where that’s concerned
Also worth noting that EC/VC work is not especially transferable to non-CA midlaw (not that first-years would have transferable skills anyway)
Midlaw demand really is up. The whole biglaw business model is being tested. Firms are dumping juniors in part because clients don’t want to pay for them.
yeah why wouldn’t you do the exact same job for less money and less prestige
The real issue is the paycut you take to work in midlaw. Such a TLS moment to focus on P R E S T I G E rather than the obvious, tangible financial disadvantage lmao
I can, however, vouch for the fact that midlaw firms are picking up a number of laid off associates. Bunch of my former colleagues are in that boat.
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 11:29 pm
by PaperView
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 2:40 pm
The firm told incoming summers that they won’t be guaranteed full time offers and should look for other options if possible… Stay away.
Crazy if true.
Also had no idea even Cravath has laid off associates.
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 6:16 am
by Res Ipsa Loquitter
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 11:04 am
Not if you factor in inflation. 2011 was a while ago. Inflation since 2011 to today is a cumulative 35%.
1st year biglaw salary in 2011 was $160K. Adjusted for inflation, that would be $216K, which is actually very slightly above the current 1st year salary of $215K. So actually, junior salary has stayed almost exactly the same and in fact has decreased a negligible amount.
I'm not quite as sure on the billing rates, since those vary by firms and aren't as public. But unless they have increased by more than 35% since 2011, then they haven't actually increased in terms of real prices.
Yeah, this isn’t how clients think about the rates. Nobody is going to be like, well ground beef, rents and gasoline are up, so it’s totally chill that my outside counsel rates are going up. They just get mad the rates are up and DGAF what eggs cost.
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 1:55 pm
by Anonymous User
PaperView wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 11:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 2:40 pm
The firm told incoming summers that they won’t be guaranteed full time offers and should look for other options if possible… Stay away.
Crazy if true.
Also had no idea even Cravath has laid off associates.
Not really, they laid off people in the London office. It's apparently not related to the US economic situation
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 2:01 pm
by Anonymous User
Wait what? Where's this coming from about Cravath? That's pretty major news, even if it's just the London office.
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 3:17 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 2:01 pm
Wait what? Where's this coming from about Cravath? That's pretty major news, even if it's just the London office.
https://abovethelaw.com/2023/05/cravath-layoffs-london/
Basically the market for US high yield issuances out of London/Europe seems to be softer than it's been for a while (and COLA probably added to bottom line costs when they're looking for ways to pay rainmakers more to keep them). They've also brought in a UK finance team - the firm's never practiced English law before - and probably figure that team can handle the "international advisory" stuff that was being done by the US lawyers in London before farming things in to New York.
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Wed May 17, 2023 8:33 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 2:40 pm
The firm told incoming summers that they won’t be guaranteed full time offers and should look for other options if possible… Stay away.
While I don’t doubt the firm will tell summers this, I doubt this has happened yet since summers start next Monday.
Re: Gunderson Layoffs
Posted: Thu May 18, 2023 1:21 pm
by Anonymous User
.