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Tax LLM/Career Question (Unusual Circumstances)
Posted: Fri May 05, 2023 3:06 pm
by Anonymous User
In an odd situation, wanted other people's perspectives.
Went to a good school (T14) but struggled with serious anxiety and depression for a long time, wound up doing doc review for most of a decade. Never really "practiced law" in the ordinary meaning of tha tterm.
I've improved my outlook on life a lot and have been considering how to get somewhere with a career. I'm about 40 now, though. I was thinking about a Tax LLM at Georgetown or NYU since I had some interest in tax in law school and did okay in my classes in that area. OTOH, I don't know that I'd be happy with Big4 as an outcome, and I wonder if anyone would be interested in hiring me at all given 1) my age and 2) what most would view as a decade-long resume gap. I also still have substantial debt and don't want to throw even more good money after bad.
Be brutal and honest - no need to sugarcoat. I'm too old to waste time with that at this point
Re: Tax LLM/Career Question (Unusual Circumstances)
Posted: Fri May 05, 2023 4:35 pm
by existentialcrisis
My brutally honest advice is that if you spent a long time struggling with anxiety and depression and now are in a better place, then you should avoid Biglaw, which is a tried and true path to both, like the plague.
Re: Tax LLM/Career Question (Unusual Circumstances)
Posted: Fri May 05, 2023 8:08 pm
by hangtime813
I second existentialcrisis. Biglaw (and most law in general...) is a recipe for more anxiety and depression.
Instead of going the tax route, have you thought about specializing in eDiscovery? With a decade of doc review you probably encountered some eDiscovery stuff, which seems easier to pivot into and cheaper from an certification/schooling perspective.
Re: Tax LLM/Career Question (Unusual Circumstances)
Posted: Fri May 05, 2023 9:10 pm
by nealric
I wouldn’t get an LLM in tax if you wouldn’t be happy in the Big4. Biglaw would be an uphill battle even for a more traditional student. A lot of biglaw LLM students are already working in biglaw or got biglaw before they started.
I think there are ways to start practicing law, but a tax llm probably isn’t the best way.
Re: Tax LLM/Career Question (Unusual Circumstances)
Posted: Fri May 05, 2023 10:32 pm
by Anonymous User
Agree that big law is a ton of work and not ideal for someone with a history of anxiety and depression. However, if you do well at NYU, I don't think big law is out of reach. My firm (V20) has hired several NYU LLM grads that are on the older side. You probably have to be in the top 10-20% of the class to get biglaw tax, but big law benefits is fairly accessible for NYU LLM grads. Hiring has cooled off a bit, so it may have become more difficult, but I wouldn't let your age deter you from trying.
Re: Tax LLM/Career Question (Unusual Circumstances)
Posted: Fri May 05, 2023 11:12 pm
by Anonymous User
hangtime813 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 8:08 pm
I second existentialcrisis. Biglaw (and most law in general...) is a recipe for more anxiety and depression.
Instead of going the tax route, have you thought about specializing in eDiscovery? With a decade of doc review you probably encountered some eDiscovery stuff, which seems easier to pivot into and cheaper from an certification/schooling perspective.
I considered both trying to work my way up as an ediscovery staff attorney and also working more on the tech side setting up reviews, but never could muster up the interest to actually do that. At the moment, I am actually am working in tax resolution helping people deal with the IRS on the administrative side (dealing with revenue officers and Appeals conferences and the like), and it's interesting for now, but I was thinking about what a good next step might be, because I don't think it's a forever job.
Re: Tax LLM/Career Question (Unusual Circumstances)
Posted: Sun May 07, 2023 7:10 pm
by CanadianWolf
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:12 pm
hangtime813 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 8:08 pm
I second existentialcrisis. Biglaw (and most law in general...) is a recipe for more anxiety and depression.
Instead of going the tax route, have you thought about specializing in eDiscovery? With a decade of doc review you probably encountered some eDiscovery stuff, which seems easier to pivot into and cheaper from an certification/schooling perspective.
I considered both trying to work my way up as an ediscovery staff attorney and also working more on the tech side setting up reviews, but never could muster up the interest to actually do that. At the moment, I am actually am working in tax resolution helping people deal with the IRS on the administrative side (dealing with revenue officers and Appeals conferences and the like), and it's interesting for now, but I was thinking about what a good next step might be, because I don't think it's a forever job.
Little to no chance for biglaw.
Possible for Big 4 tax if you do very well at Georgetown LLM or NYU LLM. But, also possible that you might not get Big 4.
Re: Tax LLM/Career Question (Unusual Circumstances)
Posted: Sun May 07, 2023 11:00 pm
by Anonymous User
CanadianWolf wrote: ↑Sun May 07, 2023 7:10 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:12 pm
hangtime813 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 8:08 pm
I second existentialcrisis. Biglaw (and most law in general...) is a recipe for more anxiety and depression.
Instead of going the tax route, have you thought about specializing in eDiscovery? With a decade of doc review you probably encountered some eDiscovery stuff, which seems easier to pivot into and cheaper from an certification/schooling perspective.
I considered both trying to work my way up as an ediscovery staff attorney and also working more on the tech side setting up reviews, but never could muster up the interest to actually do that. At the moment, I am actually am working in tax resolution helping people deal with the IRS on the administrative side (dealing with revenue officers and Appeals conferences and the like), and it's interesting for now, but I was thinking about what a good next step might be, because I don't think it's a forever job.
Little to no chance for biglaw.
Possible for Big 4 tax if you do very well at Georgetown LLM or NYU LLM. But, also possible that you might not get Big 4.
Dang. Those odds definitely don't sound worth $110k + lost earnings.
Re: Tax LLM/Career Question (Unusual Circumstances)
Posted: Mon May 08, 2023 10:16 am
by CanadianWolf
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun May 07, 2023 11:00 pm
CanadianWolf wrote: ↑Sun May 07, 2023 7:10 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:12 pm
hangtime813 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 8:08 pm
I second existentialcrisis. Biglaw (and most law in general...) is a recipe for more anxiety and depression.
Instead of going the tax route, have you thought about specializing in eDiscovery? With a decade of doc review you probably encountered some eDiscovery stuff, which seems easier to pivot into and cheaper from an certification/schooling perspective.
I considered both trying to work my way up as an ediscovery staff attorney and also working more on the tech side setting up reviews, but never could muster up the interest to actually do that. At the moment, I am actually am working in tax resolution helping people deal with the IRS on the administrative side (dealing with revenue officers and Appeals conferences and the like), and it's interesting for now, but I was thinking about what a good next step might be, because I don't think it's a forever job.
Little to no chance for biglaw.
Possible for Big 4 tax if you do very well at Georgetown LLM or NYU LLM. But, also possible that you might not get Big 4.
Dang. Those odds definitely don't sound worth $110k + lost earnings.
Georgetown Tax LLM does award scholarships.
There are other LLM tax programs which may be less costly, but these programs do not regularly place into biglaw but do place many at Big 4.
University of Florida Tax LLM program offers scholarships to those who work on the tax law journal. Not sure of specific requirements, but JD level law review is a top qualifier.
Villanova, Loyola Marymount, Northwestern, Boston University, U San Diego, U Washington, and several others should be far less costly than Georgetown or NYU. Again, biglaw recruits primarily from NYU and to a lesser extent Georgetown and, maybe, Northwestern, maybe BU.
Re: Tax LLM/Career Question (Unusual Circumstances)
Posted: Mon May 08, 2023 12:22 pm
by jdkale
Every single response is about big law which was not asked about. The IRS is hiring, and that seems like it would be a really good fit for someone who wants a career and needs balance because of some other issues. All this big law talk is not even worth a response.
Re: Tax LLM/Career Question (Unusual Circumstances)
Posted: Wed May 10, 2023 11:43 am
by Anonymous User
jdkale wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 12:22 pm
Every single response is about big law which was not asked about. The IRS is hiring, and that seems like it would be a really good fit for someone who wants a career and needs balance because of some other issues. All this big law talk is not even worth a response.
I thought IRS was very competitive as well?
Re: Tax LLM/Career Question (Unusual Circumstances)
Posted: Wed May 10, 2023 1:45 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 11:43 am
jdkale wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 12:22 pm
Every single response is about big law which was not asked about. The IRS is hiring, and that seems like it would be a really good fit for someone who wants a career and needs balance because of some other issues. All this big law talk is not even worth a response.
I thought IRS was very competitive as well?
Depends on particular business unit and location. If OP is very flexible on location, I imagine an SBSE position with IRS Chief Counsel would be possible given the T14 JD and some tax controversy experience. LLM not required.
The IRS and IRS Chief Counsel received a bunch of funding from the Inflation Reduction Act so they have very ambitious hiring goals in the next few years. Also, IRS Chief Counsel has refused to allow remote work and makes new people come in multiple times a week for first three years. Federal pay has become comparatively bad compared to private sector pay in the last three years due to inflation and raises at firms. With all these factors, hiring standards have noticeably dropped across the board compared to 5 and 10 years ago.
Technical positions (National Office) are in DC. These are harder to get and an LLM helps, but isn't required. But they are becoming easier to get due to the factors mentioned above.
Field positions are all over the country and are all litigation positions. I.e. you will be a trial attorney in U.S. Tax Court. SBSE is a very large group doing high volume litigation. LBI works cases with bigger companies.
The IRS, which is IRS Chief Counsel's client, has some tax roles where a JD/LLM may work, but they are not attorney roles.
Re: Tax LLM/Career Question (Unusual Circumstances)
Posted: Wed May 10, 2023 4:58 pm
by jdkale
There are also a lot of small law firms that hire LLMs for all kinds of roles (estate planning, litigation, etc.). A person could have a very solid career at one of these places.
I was not trying to be dismissive because it's not about competitiveness. You do not want to be a 42-year-old first year big law associate if you also struggle with anxiety and depression.
Re: Tax LLM/Career Question (Unusual Circumstances)
Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 3:40 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 1:45 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 11:43 am
jdkale wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 12:22 pm
Every single response is about big law which was not asked about. The IRS is hiring, and that seems like it would be a really good fit for someone who wants a career and needs balance because of some other issues. All this big law talk is not even worth a response.
I thought IRS was very competitive as well?
Depends on particular business unit and location. If OP is very flexible on location, I imagine an SBSE position with IRS Chief Counsel would be possible given the T14 JD and some tax controversy experience. LLM not required.
The IRS and IRS Chief Counsel received a bunch of funding from the Inflation Reduction Act so they have very ambitious hiring goals in the next few years. Also, IRS Chief Counsel has refused to allow remote work and makes new people come in multiple times a week for first three years. Federal pay has become comparatively bad compared to private sector pay in the last three years due to inflation and raises at firms. With all these factors, hiring standards have noticeably dropped across the board compared to 5 and 10 years ago.
Technical positions (National Office) are in DC. These are harder to get and an LLM helps, but isn't required. But they are becoming easier to get due to the factors mentioned above.
Field positions are all over the country and are all litigation positions. I.e. you will be a trial attorney in U.S. Tax Court. SBSE is a very large group doing high volume litigation. LBI works cases with bigger companies.
The IRS, which is IRS Chief Counsel's client, has some tax roles where a JD/LLM may work, but they are not attorney roles.
OP here, thanks for the detailed info, really appreciate it.
Re: Tax LLM/Career Question (Unusual Circumstances)
Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 3:42 pm
by Anonymous User
jdkale wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 4:58 pm
There are also a lot of small law firms that hire LLMs for all kinds of roles (estate planning, litigation, etc.). A person could have a very solid career at one of these places.
I was not trying to be dismissive because it's not about competitiveness. You do not want to be a 42-year-old first year big law associate if you also struggle with anxiety and depression.
OP here, and I understand. I actually had a hearty chuckle at the idea of a 42-year-old first year big law associate who struggles with anxiety and depression. Sounds more like a sitcom premise than something I'd want to experience IRL.