DC firms, do they no offer summers? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm an incoming summer to Hogan DC, and I haven't found anything indicating that they no offer summers, but of course it doesn't mean that it hasn't happened before. Their NALP page has disappeared, but previously it did say that they gave everyone an offer in 2022. So I'm wondering if TLS has stories related to Hogan and other DC firms when it comes to making return offers to summer associates.

Anecdotally I've been hearing that some DC firms make it a rule to always no offer a few summers and that return offers in general is less of a guarantee in DC than in NYC. Now, I would of course appreciate anecdotes related directly to Hogan, but I'd like to hear about other firms in DC if you have stories to relate.

[Anonymous User]

I have not heard that about DC firms. I am at/know people at Wilmer, Covington, Arnold & Porter, Williams & Connolly, and Gibson, and that was not something on our radars.

I can’t speak to Hogan. The only firm that was notorious for no-offering among my classmates was Susman.

[Anonymous User]

I have not heard that about DC firms. I am at/know people at Wilmer, Covington, Arnold & Porter, Williams & Connolly, and Gibson, and that was not something on our radars.

I can’t speak to Hogan. The only firm that was notorious for no-offering among my classmates was Susman.

No shit hhaha you have to have a clerkship before going to susman.

[Anonymous User]

I have not heard that about DC firms. I am at/know people at Wilmer, Covington, Arnold & Porter, Williams & Connolly, and Gibson, and that was not something on our radars.

I can’t speak to Hogan. The only firm that was notorious for no-offering among my classmates was Susman.

No shit hhaha you have to have a clerkship before going to susman.

I’m not sure why that matters in this context. They no-offer people who already have clerkships lined up. They also offer people who already have clerkships lined up.

[Anonymous User]

I have not heard that about DC firms. I am at/know people at Wilmer, Covington, Arnold & Porter, Williams & Connolly, and Gibson, and that was not something on our radars.

I can’t speak to Hogan. The only firm that was notorious for no-offering among my classmates was Susman.

No shit hhaha you have to have a clerkship before going to susman.

I’m not sure why that matters. They no-offer people who already have clerkships lined up. They also offer people who already have clerkships lined up.

Have heard that Kirkland DC has soft offered, but thats like third hand through law school rumor mill

[Anonymous User]

I have not heard that about DC firms. I am at/know people at Wilmer, Covington, Arnold & Porter, Williams & Connolly, and Gibson, and that was not something on our radars.

I can’t speak to Hogan. The only firm that was notorious for no-offering among my classmates was Susman.

No shit hhaha you have to have a clerkship before going to susman.

I’m not sure why that matters in this context. They no-offer people who already have clerkships lined up. They also offer people who already have clerkships lined up.

No offering for fit reasons? Or to create a hunger games style competition? Or is Susman just not sure what they can handle financially?

[Anonymous User]

I have not heard that about DC firms. I am at/know people at Wilmer, Covington, Arnold & Porter, Williams & Connolly, and Gibson, and that was not something on our radars.

I can’t speak to Hogan. The only firm that was notorious for no-offering among my classmates was Susman.

No shit hhaha you have to have a clerkship before going to susman.

I’m not sure why that matters in this context. They no-offer people who already have clerkships lined up. They also offer people who already have clerkships lined up.

No offering for fit reasons? Or to create a hunger games style competition? Or is Susman just not sure what they can handle financially?

I have never heard of Susman no-offering anyone, although I could believe that it is true. But it makes sense, you have to split your summer to work there, and must care about partnership potential and the ability to pull your own weight from Day 1. If a summer clearly isn't going to cut it, might as well let them go before sinking millions into a subpar associate.

They also are not a DC firm, so I don't know why it matters to OP.

[Laserguy213]

Pretty sure Gibson DC no-offered (2) summers. Not sure exactly who 1 of the 2 was, but for the 1 that was no-offered it was for completely valid (i.e., doing dumb stuff that everyone here says not to do) reasons. Wouldn't be worried for any hypothetical Gibson DC summers, though. Great firm, good management, and consistently emphasized "offers for everyone" at beginning of the summer.

[Anonymous User]

I have not heard that about DC firms. I am at/know people at Wilmer, Covington, Arnold & Porter, Williams & Connolly, and Gibson, and that was not something on our radars.

I can’t speak to Hogan. The only firm that was notorious for no-offering among my classmates was Susman.

No shit hhaha you have to have a clerkship before going to susman.

I’m not sure why that matters in this context. They no-offer people who already have clerkships lined up. They also offer people who already have clerkships lined up.

No offering for fit reasons? Or to create a hunger games style competition? Or is Susman just not sure what they can handle financially?

I have never heard of Susman no-offering anyone, although I could believe that it is true. But it makes sense, you have to split your summer to work there, and must care about partnership potential and the ability to pull your own weight from Day 1. If a summer clearly isn't going to cut it, might as well let them go before sinking millions into a subpar associate.

They also are not a DC firm, so I don't know why it matters to OP.

Just to give some color here, Susman doesn't have a normal summer program. It's only four weeks and the firm generally doesn't offer back its summers until after they clerk. It's not like a V5-style firm where every summer expects to get an offer to join immediately as a first year.

[Anonymous User]

My firm has a 100% offer rate but we do occasionally cold-offer someone who really fucks up. If you try and take it anywhere near halfways seriously, though, you'll get an offer.

[Anonymous User]

I have not heard that about DC firms. I am at/know people at Wilmer, Covington, Arnold & Porter, Williams & Connolly, and Gibson, and that was not something on our radars.

I can’t speak to Hogan. The only firm that was notorious for no-offering among my classmates was Susman.

No shit hhaha you have to have a clerkship before going to susman.

I’m not sure why that matters in this context. They no-offer people who already have clerkships lined up. They also offer people who already have clerkships lined up.

No offering for fit reasons? Or to create a hunger games style competition? Or is Susman just not sure what they can handle financially?

I have never heard of Susman no-offering anyone, although I could believe that it is true. But it makes sense, you have to split your summer to work there, and must care about partnership potential and the ability to pull your own weight from Day 1. If a summer clearly isn't going to cut it, might as well let them go before sinking millions into a subpar associate.

They also are not a DC firm, so I don't know why it matters to OP.

Just to give some color here, Susman doesn't have a normal summer program. It's only four weeks and the firm generally doesn't offer back its summers until after they clerk. It's not like a V5-style firm where every summer expects to get an offer to join immediately as a first year.

Sounds like they want multiple bites of the student apple. Shift the risk to the student and away from the firm. I assume they do rolling offers to clerks until they fill up their post-clerkship class?

[Anonymous User]

Pretty sure Gibson DC no-offered (2) summers. Not sure exactly who 1 of the 2 was, but for the 1 that was no-offered it was for completely valid (i.e., doing dumb stuff that everyone here says not to do) reasons. Wouldn't be worried for any hypothetical Gibson DC summers, though. Great firm, good management, and consistently emphasized "offers for everyone" at beginning of the summer.

This happened during my summer. One guy blew deadlines, the other said dumb/offensive things while drinking at the wrap party. I wouldn't worry in the vast majority of cases.

[Anonymous User]

I have not heard that about DC firms. I am at/know people at Wilmer, Covington, Arnold & Porter, Williams & Connolly, and Gibson, and that was not something on our radars.

I can’t speak to Hogan. The only firm that was notorious for no-offering among my classmates was Susman.

No shit hhaha you have to have a clerkship before going to susman.

I’m not sure why that matters in this context. They no-offer people who already have clerkships lined up. They also offer people who already have clerkships lined up.

No offering for fit reasons? Or to create a hunger games style competition? Or is Susman just not sure what they can handle financially?

I have never heard of Susman no-offering anyone, although I could believe that it is true. But it makes sense, you have to split your summer to work there, and must care about partnership potential and the ability to pull your own weight from Day 1. If a summer clearly isn't going to cut it, might as well let them go before sinking millions into a subpar associate.

They also are not a DC firm, so I don't know why it matters to OP.

Just to give some color here, Susman doesn't have a normal summer program. It's only four weeks and the firm generally doesn't offer back its summers until after they clerk. It's not like a V5-style firm where every summer expects to get an offer to join immediately as a first year.

Sounds like they want multiple bites of the student apple. Shift the risk to the student and away from the firm. I assume they do rolling offers to clerks until they fill up their post-clerkship class?

I'm not sure how they do post-clerkship hiring. Could be wrong but I believe Kellogg Hansen does a similar thing with their summer program (only ~4 weeks, generally no pre-clerkship offers). But all the summers split with other firms so it's not like the students are taking on a ton of risk.

[Anonymous User]

Pretty sure Gibson DC no-offered (2) summers. Not sure exactly who 1 of the 2 was, but for the 1 that was no-offered it was for completely valid (i.e., doing dumb stuff that everyone here says not to do) reasons. Wouldn't be worried for any hypothetical Gibson DC summers, though. Great firm, good management, and consistently emphasized "offers for everyone" at beginning of the summer.

Corroborating this. I was at another GDC office. I heard the behavior was egregious and the result well warranted.

GDC's no-offers—there was one in my office too—aren't of the type that anyone need to be worried about, unless you're a racist or homophobic shit-head.

[Anonymous User]

I have not heard that about DC firms. I am at/know people at Wilmer, Covington, Arnold & Porter, Williams & Connolly, and Gibson, and that was not something on our radars.

I can’t speak to Hogan. The only firm that was notorious for no-offering among my classmates was Susman.

No shit hhaha you have to have a clerkship before going to susman.

I’m not sure why that matters in this context. They no-offer people who already have clerkships lined up. They also offer people who already have clerkships lined up.

Susman only does splits and doesn't give offers, it just potentially helps you get a job when you apply post-clerkship, everyone knows the deal (or should know it) going in. None of the Susman summers my year at my school ended up going there in the end. I'm actually not entirely sure why they have a summer program beyond getting a look at some people early.

[Anonymous User]

I have not heard that about DC firms. I am at/know people at Wilmer, Covington, Arnold & Porter, Williams & Connolly, and Gibson, and that was not something on our radars.

I can’t speak to Hogan. The only firm that was notorious for no-offering among my classmates was Susman.

No shit hhaha you have to have a clerkship before going to susman.

I’m not sure why that matters in this context. They no-offer people who already have clerkships lined up. They also offer people who already have clerkships lined up.

Susman only does splits and doesn't give offers, it just potentially helps you get a job when you apply post-clerkship, everyone knows the deal (or should know it) going in. None of the Susman summers my year at my school ended up going there in the end. I'm actually not entirely sure why they have a summer program beyond getting a look at some people early.

They do 2L and pre-3L summers. 11 of 20 2L summers got offers in 2021.

It’s a good deal for Sussman. They get a great look with no commitment - most law firms would love to have this. Most law firms, from Wachtell and the V10 down to at least the V50s, have to trust the recruitment and interview process and slowly weed out all non-hackers.

[throwawayt14]

I have not heard that about DC firms. I am at/know people at Wilmer, Covington, Arnold & Porter, Williams & Connolly, and Gibson, and that was not something on our radars.

I can’t speak to Hogan. The only firm that was notorious for no-offering among my classmates was Susman.

No shit hhaha you have to have a clerkship before going to susman.

I’m not sure why that matters in this context. They no-offer people who already have clerkships lined up. They also offer people who already have clerkships lined up.

Susman only does splits and doesn't give offers, it just potentially helps you get a job when you apply post-clerkship, everyone knows the deal (or should know it) going in. None of the Susman summers my year at my school ended up going there in the end. I'm actually not entirely sure why they have a summer program beyond getting a look at some people early.

They do 2L and pre-3L summers. 11 of 20 2L summers got offers in 2021.

It’s a good deal for Sussman. They get a great look with no commitment - most law firms would love to have this. Most law firms, from Wachtell and the V10 down to at least the V50s, have to trust the recruitment and interview process and slowly weed out all non-hackers.

Wachtell could easily switch to this system if they wanted, clearly they see some benefit in having a real summer program.

[Anonymous User]

I have not heard that about DC firms. I am at/know people at Wilmer, Covington, Arnold & Porter, Williams & Connolly, and Gibson, and that was not something on our radars.

I can’t speak to Hogan. The only firm that was notorious for no-offering among my classmates was Susman.

No shit hhaha you have to have a clerkship before going to susman.

I’m not sure why that matters in this context. They no-offer people who already have clerkships lined up. They also offer people who already have clerkships lined up.

Susman only does splits and doesn't give offers, it just potentially helps you get a job when you apply post-clerkship, everyone knows the deal (or should know it) going in. None of the Susman summers my year at my school ended up going there in the end. I'm actually not entirely sure why they have a summer program beyond getting a look at some people early.

Current SG associate. This is inaccurate. Its an office-by-office decision. To the best of my knowledge, New York is the only office that doesn't give offers to summers as a matter of policy. Of course, no matter the office, any offer is contingent on obtaining and completing an Art. III clerkship.

[Anonymous User]

I have not heard that about DC firms. I am at/know people at Wilmer, Covington, Arnold & Porter, Williams & Connolly, and Gibson, and that was not something on our radars.

I can’t speak to Hogan. The only firm that was notorious for no-offering among my classmates was Susman.

No shit hhaha you have to have a clerkship before going to susman.

I’m not sure why that matters in this context. They no-offer people who already have clerkships lined up. They also offer people who already have clerkships lined up.

Susman only does splits and doesn't give offers, it just potentially helps you get a job when you apply post-clerkship, everyone knows the deal (or should know it) going in. None of the Susman summers my year at my school ended up going there in the end. I'm actually not entirely sure why they have a summer program beyond getting a look at some people early.

They do 2L and pre-3L summers. 11 of 20 2L summers got offers in 2021.

It’s a good deal for Sussman. They get a great look with no commitment - most law firms would love to have this. Most law firms, from Wachtell and the V10 down to at least the V50s, have to trust the recruitment and interview process and slowly weed out all non-hackers.

Maybe I'm too soft and this is just life, but I do kind of feel like if you only consistently offer half the class it could get maybe kind of competitive and cut-throaty? I guess the answer to that would be like "such is life and that is how it should work," but wondering if anyone familiar with the SA process at susman could speak to that.

[Anonymous User]

I have not heard that about DC firms. I am at/know people at Wilmer, Covington, Arnold & Porter, Williams & Connolly, and Gibson, and that was not something on our radars.

I can’t speak to Hogan. The only firm that was notorious for no-offering among my classmates was Susman.

No shit hhaha you have to have a clerkship before going to susman.

I’m not sure why that matters in this context. They no-offer people who already have clerkships lined up. They also offer people who already have clerkships lined up.

Susman only does splits and doesn't give offers, it just potentially helps you get a job when you apply post-clerkship, everyone knows the deal (or should know it) going in. None of the Susman summers my year at my school ended up going there in the end. I'm actually not entirely sure why they have a summer program beyond getting a look at some people early.

They do 2L and pre-3L summers. 11 of 20 2L summers got offers in 2021.

It’s a good deal for Sussman. They get a great look with no commitment - most law firms would love to have this. Most law firms, from Wachtell and the V10 down to at least the V50s, have to trust the recruitment and interview process and slowly weed out all non-hackers.

Maybe I'm too soft and this is just life, but I do kind of feel like if you only consistently offer half the class it could get maybe kind of competitive and cut-throaty? I guess the answer to that would be like "such is life and that is how it should work," but wondering if anyone familiar with the SA process at susman could speak to that.

Same SG associate as above. That is not the case, as there is no quota. Rather, for the offices that make offers to SAs (and as stated above, New York does not), that decision is made based on the SA's work product and fit--not some arbitrary number. If all SAs from one office met our criteria, we'd ostensibly be prepared to make offers to all of them.

[Anonymous User]

I have not heard that about DC firms. I am at/know people at Wilmer, Covington, Arnold & Porter, Williams & Connolly, and Gibson, and that was not something on our radars.

I can’t speak to Hogan. The only firm that was notorious for no-offering among my classmates was Susman.

No shit hhaha you have to have a clerkship before going to susman.

I’m not sure why that matters in this context. They no-offer people who already have clerkships lined up. They also offer people who already have clerkships lined up.

Susman only does splits and doesn't give offers, it just potentially helps you get a job when you apply post-clerkship, everyone knows the deal (or should know it) going in. None of the Susman summers my year at my school ended up going there in the end. I'm actually not entirely sure why they have a summer program beyond getting a look at some people early.

They do 2L and pre-3L summers. 11 of 20 2L summers got offers in 2021.

It’s a good deal for Sussman. They get a great look with no commitment - most law firms would love to have this. Most law firms, from Wachtell and the V10 down to at least the V50s, have to trust the recruitment and interview process and slowly weed out all non-hackers.

Maybe I'm too soft and this is just life, but I do kind of feel like if you only consistently offer half the class it could get maybe kind of competitive and cut-throaty? I guess the answer to that would be like "such is life and that is how it should work," but wondering if anyone familiar with the SA process at susman could speak to that.

Same SG associate as above. That is not the case, as there is no quota. Rather, for the offices that make offers to SAs (and as stated above, New York does not), that decision is made based on the SA's work product and fit--not some arbitrary number. If all SAs from one office met our criteria, we'd ostensibly be prepared to make offers to all of them.

Why doesn't the SG NY office offer back summers?

[Anonymous User]

No shit hhaha you have to have a clerkship before going to susman.

I’m not sure why that matters in this context. They no-offer people who already have clerkships lined up. They also offer people who already have clerkships lined up.

Susman only does splits and doesn't give offers, it just potentially helps you get a job when you apply post-clerkship, everyone knows the deal (or should know it) going in. None of the Susman summers my year at my school ended up going there in the end. I'm actually not entirely sure why they have a summer program beyond getting a look at some people early.

They do 2L and pre-3L summers. 11 of 20 2L summers got offers in 2021.

It’s a good deal for Sussman. They get a great look with no commitment - most law firms would love to have this. Most law firms, from Wachtell and the V10 down to at least the V50s, have to trust the recruitment and interview process and slowly weed out all non-hackers.

Maybe I'm too soft and this is just life, but I do kind of feel like if you only consistently offer half the class it could get maybe kind of competitive and cut-throaty? I guess the answer to that would be like "such is life and that is how it should work," but wondering if anyone familiar with the SA process at susman could speak to that.

Same SG associate as above. That is not the case, as there is no quota. Rather, for the offices that make offers to SAs (and as stated above, New York does not), that decision is made based on the SA's work product and fit--not some arbitrary number. If all SAs from one office met our criteria, we'd ostensibly be prepared to make offers to all of them.

Why doesn't the SG NY office offer back summers?

Same SG associate. I don't have the specific answer to that (the decision was made before my time), but I suspect the rationale is that the firm wants to get feedback from the judge(s) that the summer clerked for before making an offer. To be clear, we frequently hire former NY summers as full time associates, we just aren't willing to make that offer until after the candidate is near completing his/her clerkship(s).