NYC corporate/transactional cutoff? Forum

[SirLawrenceWildman]

Hi everyone,

I was hoping that someone could give me a realistic cutoff or cutoff range for NYC corporate and transactional work. I’m at a t20 that historically does well in big law (UCLA, Vandy, UT). I’ve heard everything from “big law is accessible as long as you’re not in the bottom 10% of the class” to “you’re in trouble if you dip below median.” The employment data could support either theory: about 50% go to big law + FC each year, with a not-insignificant portion going to Jd advantage jobs, which I understand are just as hard/harder to get than big law (CSO said that these jobs are typically IB and consulting).

So, based on that, where do you think the cutoff range for NYC specifically is? On the more conservative estimate that big law generally requires median, would NYC be higher than that? I’m really trying to get a feel for what to expect because I want to do NYC transactional work and finished slightly below median last semester, and although I think I know how to improve, I’m not assuming that I will by any means.

[existentialcrisis]

So there's no right answer to this historically, as much as law students want there to be a simple formula.

I'd also caution folks, especially those that haven't entered school yet, that data from 2016-present is not actually that representative of the overall historical trend.

T20 schools that were sending 50-60% of folks to big firms during a boom economy were sending closer to 1/3rd between ITE and 2015 or so.

Also bear in mind, that some of these people landing big law from those schools have other factors helping them. They might have a technical background for IP, or great connections, or great prior work experience or be the world's greatest interviewer, etc.

Especially outside of the T14, it's probably never going to be as simple as "just get x grades and you're safe" unless those x grades are like really extraordinarily good.

Like for example in 2014, WUSTL or UCLA were sending roughly 35-40% of kids to national firms or federal clerkships.

[Anonymous User]

So there's no right answer to this historically, as much as law students want there to be a simple formula.

I'd also caution folks, especially those that haven't entered school yet, that data from 2016-present is not actually that representative of the overall historical trend.

T20 schools that were sending 50-60% of folks to big firms during a boom economy were sending closer to 1/3rd between ITE and 2015 or so.

Also bear in mind, that some of these people landing big law from those schools have other factors helping them. They might have a technical background for IP, or great connections, or great prior work experience or be the world's greatest interviewer, etc.

Especially outside of the T14, it's probably never going to be as simple as "just get x grades and you're safe" unless those x grades are like really extraordinarily good.

Like for example in 2014, WUSTL or UCLA were sending roughly 35-40% of kids to national firms or federal clerkships.

This is all correct, but just to underline the reality, if you're an aspiring law student and you start studying and prepping for applications, you're going down a path that won't manifest as a job for four years or so, and the economy can look completely different in that time. At my firm, at the height of the hiring bonanza a year-ish ago, we were hiring people that would have dismissed out of hand in previous cycles. That includes people from schools that weren't as highly ranked, and people from small firms and small companies that wanted in on the hiring spree. Now a rockstar associate would have to make a compelling case. That's all a function of the market and economy. Your grades and your targeted markets are somewhat in your control, but the state of hiring is not, and people in the pipeline should be conservative about their outcomes.

[SirLawrenceWildman]

So there's no right answer to this historically, as much as law students want there to be a simple formula.

I'd also caution folks, especially those that haven't entered school yet, that data from 2016-present is not actually that representative of the overall historical trend.

T20 schools that were sending 50-60% of folks to big firms during a boom economy were sending closer to 1/3rd between ITE and 2015 or so.

Also bear in mind, that some of these people landing big law from those schools have other factors helping them. They might have a technical background for IP, or great connections, or great prior work experience or be the world's greatest interviewer, etc.

Especially outside of the T14, it's probably never going to be as simple as "just get x grades and you're safe" unless those x grades are like really extraordinarily good.

Like for example in 2014, WUSTL or UCLA were sending roughly 35-40% of kids to national firms or federal clerkships.

Thank you; this is helpful. It sounds like my best option is to hope for the best and do all of the work necessary to give myself a shot but expect to stay more regional.

For what it’s worth, I have no technical background and no work experience, but I am a well-above average interviewer based on feedback I’ve gotten

[SirLawrenceWildman]

This is all correct, but just to underline the reality, if you're an aspiring law student and you start studying and prepping for applications, you're going down a path that won't manifest as a job for four years or so, and the economy can look completely different in that time. At my firm, at the height of the hiring bonanza a year-ish ago, we were hiring people that would have dismissed out of hand in previous cycles. That includes people from schools that weren't as highly ranked, and people from small firms and small companies that wanted in on the hiring spree. Now a rockstar associate would have to make a compelling case. That's all a function of the market and economy. Your grades and your targeted markets are somewhat in your control, but the state of hiring is not, and people in the pipeline should be conservative about their outcomes.
[/quote]

Thank you. I’m currently a 1L thinking ahead to OCIs. I have a job locked down for this upcoming summer at an larger middle sized/smaller big firm (I’m not sure what the cutoff is) in my home city, i.e. not NYC, that I’m super excited about. However, I would like to explore the NYC option as much as possible

[Anonymous User]

2020 UT grad who went into OCI at a little below median. I had a rough first semester but made a 3.8 my second semester. My experience in 2018 was that it was very difficult to find a transactional big law job, even with my "good story" of learning from mistakes and being able to improve. I struck out in NYC and received one offer for a Texas office. Based off of my experience and the experience of my classmates, it seems like, for UT, being in the top 40% is/was the sweet spot. If you wanted a big law job and were in the top 40%, I imagine that you got at least one offer, most likely in the city of your choice (except DC). If you were outside of that top 40%, even if you had a "good story" like I did, securing big law was very difficult and took a lot of networking and city/practice group flexibility.

[Anonymous User]

Hi everyone,

I was hoping that someone could give me a realistic cutoff or cutoff range for NYC corporate and transactional work. I’m at a t20 that historically does well in big law (UCLA, Vandy, UT). I’ve heard everything from “big law is accessible as long as you’re not in the bottom 10% of the class” to “you’re in trouble if you dip below median.” The employment data could support either theory: about 50% go to big law + FC each year, with a not-insignificant portion going to Jd advantage jobs, which I understand are just as hard/harder to get than big law (CSO said that these jobs are typically IB and consulting).

So, based on that, where do you think the cutoff range for NYC specifically is? On the more conservative estimate that big law generally requires median, would NYC be higher than that? I’m really trying to get a feel for what to expect because I want to do NYC transactional work and finished slightly below median last semester, and although I think I know how to improve, I’m not assuming that I will by any means.

You can definitely snag nyc big law from below median at those schools, but right now you are probably going to have a hard time if you are outside the top 1/3. Transactional work has significantly slowed and many firms are hesitant to over-hire right now.

[Anonymous User]

Hi everyone,

I was hoping that someone could give me a realistic cutoff or cutoff range for NYC corporate and transactional work. I’m at a t20 that historically does well in big law (UCLA, Vandy, UT). I’ve heard everything from “big law is accessible as long as you’re not in the bottom 10% of the class” to “you’re in trouble if you dip below median.” The employment data could support either theory: about 50% go to big law + FC each year, with a not-insignificant portion going to Jd advantage jobs, which I understand are just as hard/harder to get than big law (CSO said that these jobs are typically IB and consulting).

So, based on that, where do you think the cutoff range for NYC specifically is? On the more conservative estimate that big law generally requires median, would NYC be higher than that? I’m really trying to get a feel for what to expect because I want to do NYC transactional work and finished slightly below median last semester, and although I think I know how to improve, I’m not assuming that I will by any means.

T20 perspective - based on anecdote, research, and school provided numbers - all during hiring friendly economy.

- Wachtell doesn't interview. [neither does Quinn but obv not corporate]

- Cravath, SullCrom, and Davis Polk all floored at top 10% + LR, hard stop

- Paul, Weiss, Cleary, Simpson, Skadden, Gibson all req'd top 15%, hard floor

- Deb, White & Case, Weil, Covington, Milbank all looked for around top 15% but were more willing to flex to ~top third based on other credentials (law review, interviewing strength, 1L SA, etc)

- between top 15-30%, seemed achievable but heavily "take what you can get," with people ending up at like Cadwaladar, Clifford Chance, Shearman, Dechert, Cahill, Goodwin

- Seems like people started seriously struggling around top third

- You needed extenuating circumstances to pull it off around/below median

[SirLawrenceWildman]

Hi everyone,

I was hoping that someone could give me a realistic cutoff or cutoff range for NYC corporate and transactional work. I’m at a t20 that historically does well in big law (UCLA, Vandy, UT). I’ve heard everything from “big law is accessible as long as you’re not in the bottom 10% of the class” to “you’re in trouble if you dip below median.” The employment data could support either theory: about 50% go to big law + FC each year, with a not-insignificant portion going to Jd advantage jobs, which I understand are just as hard/harder to get than big law (CSO said that these jobs are typically IB and consulting).

So, based on that, where do you think the cutoff range for NYC specifically is? On the more conservative estimate that big law generally requires median, would NYC be higher than that? I’m really trying to get a feel for what to expect because I want to do NYC transactional work and finished slightly below median last semester, and although I think I know how to improve, I’m not assuming that I will by any means.

You can definitely snag nyc big law from below median at those schools, but right now you are probably going to have a hard time if you are outside the top 1/3. Transactional work has significantly slowed and many firms are hesitant to over-hire right now.

Thank you for the advice. I experienced something similar when applying for summer 1L jobs: I got zero interest from anyone I sent a transactional-heavy cover letter to, but I got three interviews (one big law and two regional upper-middle market (?)) when I took a more moderate stance and expressed interest in bankruptcy/restructuring and real estate as well. I ended up getting a 1L summer position from one of the latter two firms, which I’m extremely thankful for, but my long-term goals are more transactional-oriented and NYC. If the market stays the same way by the time I graduate, would applying for NYC BKRX be more attainable? And, if I could even manage getting a position there, is it possible to switch practice groups at a firm down the line?

[SirLawrenceWildman]

2020 UT grad who went into OCI at a little below median. I had a rough first semester but made a 3.8 my second semester. My experience in 2018 was that it was very difficult to find a transactional big law job, even with my "good story" of learning from mistakes and being able to improve. I struck out in NYC and received one offer for a Texas office. Based off of my experience and the experience of my classmates, it seems like, for UT, being in the top 40% is/was the sweet spot. If you wanted a big law job and were in the top 40%, I imagine that you got at least one offer, most likely in the city of your choice (except DC). If you were outside of that top 40%, even if you had a "good story" like I did, securing big law was very difficult and took a lot of networking and city/practice group flexibility.

Thank you. This is definitely a bit disappointing to hear, but it’s good motivation to work harder.

[SirLawrenceWildman]

Hi everyone,

I was hoping that someone could give me a realistic cutoff or cutoff range for NYC corporate and transactional work. I’m at a t20 that historically does well in big law (UCLA, Vandy, UT). I’ve heard everything from “big law is accessible as long as you’re not in the bottom 10% of the class” to “you’re in trouble if you dip below median.” The employment data could support either theory: about 50% go to big law + FC each year, with a not-insignificant portion going to Jd advantage jobs, which I understand are just as hard/harder to get than big law (CSO said that these jobs are typically IB and consulting).

So, based on that, where do you think the cutoff range for NYC specifically is? On the more conservative estimate that big law generally requires median, would NYC be higher than that? I’m really trying to get a feel for what to expect because I want to do NYC transactional work and finished slightly below median last semester, and although I think I know how to improve, I’m not assuming that I will by any means.

T20 perspective - based on anecdote, research, and school provided numbers - all during hiring friendly economy.

- Wachtell doesn't interview. [neither does Quinn but obv not corporate]

- Cravath, SullCrom, and Davis Polk all floored at top 10% + LR, hard stop

- Paul, Weiss, Cleary, Simpson, Skadden, Gibson all req'd top 15%, hard floor

- Deb, White & Case, Weil, Covington, Milbank all looked for around top 15% but were more willing to flex to ~top third based on other credentials (law review, interviewing strength, 1L SA, etc)

- between top 15-30%, seemed achievable but heavily "take what you can get," with people ending up at like Cadwaladar, Clifford Chance, Shearman, Dechert, Cahill, Goodwin

- Seems like people started seriously struggling around top third

- You needed extenuating circumstances to pull it off around/below median

Thank you; this is rough to hear, but expected. What do you mean by “extenuating circumstances?” STEM undergrad -> IP? Exceptional extracurriculars, e.g. mock trial and moot court (obviously not for transactional, but for big law generally)? Family connections?

[Anonymous User]

Hi everyone,

I was hoping that someone could give me a realistic cutoff or cutoff range for NYC corporate and transactional work. I’m at a t20 that historically does well in big law (UCLA, Vandy, UT). I’ve heard everything from “big law is accessible as long as you’re not in the bottom 10% of the class” to “you’re in trouble if you dip below median.” The employment data could support either theory: about 50% go to big law + FC each year, with a not-insignificant portion going to Jd advantage jobs, which I understand are just as hard/harder to get than big law (CSO said that these jobs are typically IB and consulting).

So, based on that, where do you think the cutoff range for NYC specifically is? On the more conservative estimate that big law generally requires median, would NYC be higher than that? I’m really trying to get a feel for what to expect because I want to do NYC transactional work and finished slightly below median last semester, and although I think I know how to improve, I’m not assuming that I will by any means.

T20 perspective - based on anecdote, research, and school provided numbers - all during hiring friendly economy.

- Wachtell doesn't interview. [neither does Quinn but obv not corporate]

- Cravath, SullCrom, and Davis Polk all floored at top 10% + LR, hard stop

- Paul, Weiss, Cleary, Simpson, Skadden, Gibson all req'd top 15%, hard floor

- Deb, White & Case, Weil, Covington, Milbank all looked for around top 15% but were more willing to flex to ~top third based on other credentials (law review, interviewing strength, 1L SA, etc)

- between top 15-30%, seemed achievable but heavily "take what you can get," with people ending up at like Cadwaladar, Clifford Chance, Shearman, Dechert, Cahill, Goodwin

- Seems like people started seriously struggling around top third

- You needed extenuating circumstances to pull it off around/below median

Thank you; this is rough to hear, but expected. What do you mean by “extenuating circumstances?” STEM undergrad -> IP? Exceptional extracurriculars, e.g. mock trial and moot court (obviously not for transactional, but for big law generally)? Family connections?

Anecdotally, the extenuating circumstances that I've seen matter:
- elite undergrad
- high end + relevant work experience [BBM consulting or bulge bank]
- having an MBA from a reputable program
- LCLD qualifying

Also, LR definitely helps - even for corporate. Not for any substantive reason, but firms just like law school gold stars

Moot/mock trial are closed off to 1L's (or at least is at my school), so they don't factor in at all

[Anonymous User]

2020 UT grad who went into OCI at a little below median. I had a rough first semester but made a 3.8 my second semester. My experience in 2018 was that it was very difficult to find a transactional big law job, even with my "good story" of learning from mistakes and being able to improve. I struck out in NYC and received one offer for a Texas office. Based off of my experience and the experience of my classmates, it seems like, for UT, being in the top 40% is/was the sweet spot. If you wanted a big law job and were in the top 40%, I imagine that you got at least one offer, most likely in the city of your choice (except DC). If you were outside of that top 40%, even if you had a "good story" like I did, securing big law was very difficult and took a lot of networking and city/practice group flexibility.

I'm also a UT 2020 grad. I'm not too surprised at your outcome - I knew someone with a similar story (hey if it's you haha) - the impression I was left with was that all the bs about extenuating circumstances, softs, upwards trends etc. was just that, and all firms cared about was the cumulative GPA for 1L. Based on my experience, about 75-90% of the interview outcome came down to purely 1L GPA. I was right around top 25% and felt like among the NY firms that interviewed us, I had met all of their cutoffs (except S&C, and Cravath dinged me from a callback based on my UG gpa, which is semi-insane)

I did know of a few special cases where people with very low GPAs got biglaw jobs way outside of what would be expected, but those were truly a handful of cases and involved people who essentially already did the same work as associates prior to law school (inhouse) or became practically friends with the hiring partners.

I'd say that coming from UT in 2020, if you were around top 25% you had a very good shot of getting a biglaw job in any market you wanted except for DC, and were treated like royalty in Texas itself (Texas biglaw firms treated us the same way I saw Harvard kids being treated in NY years later). If you were top 50%, you had a good chance of getting biglaw in Texas. If you were below that, your chances were lower but still somewhat possible in Texas - but likely not anywhere else.

[Anonymous User]

Double post.