Sub 3.0 GPA at T14 - Am I Screwed for Big law -IP Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi,

Like the title says, I have a 2.9 at a lower T14. I started this gig with the expectation that everyone is going to get big law, But after the 1L summer job search, I have a feeling that the statement "everyone" might be a big over inclusive.

My plans coming into law school was to get into biglaw, and make good money for my wife and kids. I'm kind of an older non traditional candidate with a background in engineering. I am eligible to sit for the patent bar, and my end game was to land in big law patent prosecution. I'm taking significant student loans for my mid life law crisis.

Does the low GPA throw a wrench into my game plan? If big law is not possible, should I cut my losses and drop out? Is it possible to transfer to a lower ranked school now, so that I need to take only much lower debt?

I reviewed my answers with the model answer, and honest to god, I just appreciate my classmates that are really smart. I would also like to know how to improve the grades, if possible.

regards...

[Anonymous User]

“Everyone is going to get big law” is never true. The people who strike out at T14s don’t broadcast it but it happens at (basically) every school every year. Doesn’t help that people don’t realize their career offices are incompetent until late in the recruiting game. Although in your situation it’s time to go to them and try to strategize.

[Anonymous User]

Hi,

Like the title says, I have a 2.9 at a lower T14. I started this gig with the expectation that everyone is going to get big law, But after the 1L summer job search, I have a feeling that the statement "everyone" might be a big over inclusive.

My plans coming into law school was to get into biglaw, and make good money for my wife and kids. I'm kind of an older non traditional candidate with a background in engineering. I am eligible to sit for the patent bar, and my end game was to land in big law patent prosecution. I'm taking significant student loans for my mid life law crisis.

Does the low GPA throw a wrench into my game plan? If big law is not possible, should I cut my losses and drop out? Is it possible to transfer to a lower ranked school now, so that I need to take only much lower debt?

I reviewed my answers with the model answer, and honest to god, I just appreciate my classmates that are really smart. I would also like to know how to improve the grades, if possible.

regards...

You should network! Assuming Northwestern/Duke/Cornell and not GULC, you will most likely be able to get a biglaw job. Just be very strategic & network (!!!) because honestly, it doesn't sound like your grades are gonna improve much and even with a marked improvement to something like 3.5 for spring semester, you will still end up at or below median.

The high-ranked firms in your target market will likely be out of reach, but generic biglaw certainly not!! Personally, I know of one person several years before who had a 2.9 from one of the above schools and landed a V20 gig in NY (although one of the regionally weaker offices). It's totally possible, and you've got this!

Also, I'd target your local market & NY. So for Duke, ATL/Miami and NY, for instance, or for NU Chicago & NY. Typically, schools do better in their home markets & NY just has the most jobs.

[Anonymous User]

Hi,

Like the title says, I have a 2.9 at a lower T14. I started this gig with the expectation that everyone is going to get big law, But after the 1L summer job search, I have a feeling that the statement "everyone" might be a big over inclusive.

My plans coming into law school was to get into biglaw, and make good money for my wife and kids. I'm kind of an older non traditional candidate with a background in engineering. I am eligible to sit for the patent bar, and my end game was to land in big law patent prosecution. I'm taking significant student loans for my mid life law crisis.

Does the low GPA throw a wrench into my game plan? If big law is not possible, should I cut my losses and drop out? Is it possible to transfer to a lower ranked school now, so that I need to take only much lower debt?

I reviewed my answers with the model answer, and honest to god, I just appreciate my classmates that are really smart. I would also like to know how to improve the grades, if possible.

regards...

You should network! Assuming Northwestern/Duke/Cornell and not GULC, you will most likely be able to get a biglaw job. Just be very strategic & network (!!!) because honestly, it doesn't sound like your grades are gonna improve much and even with a marked improvement to something like 3.5 for spring semester, you will still end up at or below median.

The high-ranked firms in your target market will likely be out of reach, but generic biglaw certainly not!! Personally, I know of one person several years before who had a 2.9 from one of the above schools and landed a V20 gig in NY (although one of the regionally weaker offices). It's totally possible, and you've got this!

Also, I'd target your local market & NY. So for Duke, ATL/Miami and NY, for instance, or for NU Chicago & NY. Typically, schools do better in their home markets & NY just has the most jobs.

Weird comment here about GULC. GULC might possibly be better because there are a lot of patent jobs in DC.

[jotarokujo]

Hi,

Like the title says, I have a 2.9 at a lower T14. I started this gig with the expectation that everyone is going to get big law, But after the 1L summer job search, I have a feeling that the statement "everyone" might be a big over inclusive.

My plans coming into law school was to get into biglaw, and make good money for my wife and kids. I'm kind of an older non traditional candidate with a background in engineering. I am eligible to sit for the patent bar, and my end game was to land in big law patent prosecution. I'm taking significant student loans for my mid life law crisis.

Does the low GPA throw a wrench into my game plan? If big law is not possible, should I cut my losses and drop out? Is it possible to transfer to a lower ranked school now, so that I need to take only much lower debt?

I reviewed my answers with the model answer, and honest to god, I just appreciate my classmates that are really smart. I would also like to know how to improve the grades, if possible.

regards...

from what I understand, prosecution should be fine as it is less grade sensitive. Take the patent bar, that will help.

litigation would be difficult because it is more grade selective, just as litigation is generally

[Anonymous User]

I work in IP, and I agree you do have a shot. Grades aren't unimportant, but they often take a backseat to technical chops especially for the big prosecution shops. Is your undergrad degree from a reputable place?
Do you have a masters/PhD? Does your lower T14 offer a dual masters/JD program that you could take advantage of?

Networking is a great start, but you should also sign up for and start studying for the patent bar ASAP (ideally before OCI). While you don't need to pass it before you graduate, you could use the bump from showing firms you're already committed and ready for the field. Also, definitely cast your net wide and be flexible on region (I'd say DC is likely out with those grades, though you never know).

I know you said a biglaw salary was one of your goals, but I would cast your net a bit wider in this regard as well by targeting some firms that pay slightly below market. The lateral market in IP has and likely will continue to be hot - there just aren't enough people who get a science/tech degree and then decide to go to law school. So if all you can get is below market, you still may be able to lateral into the biglaw scale within a year or two (or even as a 3L if you pick up your grades). I work at a top IP shop that's been crazy busy, so we have had to dig pretty deep to fill seats.

A few other points on your questions:

I would say don't transfer. It's going to be harder with a low GPA, and without an independent reason (e.g., trying to be close to family or something like that) it's just going to be another red flag on your resume. I don't know if transfer students get $$$, either.

Re: grades, there are a ton of techniques out there, so I'm guessing you just haven't found a study technique that works for you yet. Anecdotally (and not surprisingly given that I also have a tech background), I'm a pretty terrible reader (reading comp was my worst section), so reading every case word for word didn't do much for me. In fact, I often get the wrong idea which causes troubles for me down the road. So I pretty much stopped reading half way through 1L, and instead focused all my energy on paying attention during class and a strong study group to outline leading up the the exams. My GPA started out pretty strong, but I landed a spring semester GPA that was about .3 higher than fall semester, all while doing less work.

It also sounds like exams are a bit of a blind spot for you. As a first step, I'd see if you can get some clarity on why your grades were lower. Did you get answers wrong? Did you not spot enough issues? Did you waffle rather than writing a clear and definitive answer? I would give different advice for all three of those. For the first, locate some solid outlines early in the semester to start reviewing, find a study buddy, start outlining early, and make sure your outline is perfect for exam day. For the second, find practice tests (if available) and do them all before exam day. Review them with a classmate or even the prof to see how you're doing. For the third, you probably need to do a little bit of both. I'd also combine that with just plain old talking with people about your classes. Debate the issues, ask hypotheticals, etc. - that will get you in the habit of thinking like a lawyer (or at least a law school exam taker).

Finally, consider whether you'd be better off taking classes that have a paper, rather than an exam. If writing is a challenge for you then that may not be the case, but it's worth exploring. I knew some people who were terrible at exams (mostly due to the pressure) and brought their GPA immensely just by avoiding them.

Anyway, hang in there. You're certainly not the first person to be in this situation, and the door isn't shut yet! I have at least one friend with a sub 3.0 1L GPA from my T14 (MVPB) who ended up in the DC office of a V20 (not even in IP) and a person who struck out hard at OCI who ended up at Skadden, so never say never!

[jhett]

I think you should expand your sights beyond just biglaw, particularly for patent prosecution. There are many smaller IP shops that have good reputation but aren't as grade selective. Yes, the pay not be as high, but it's still pretty good and the hours might be more bearable. You should pass the patent bar ASAP to make yourself more marketable.

[Anonymous User]

I don't want to give you false hope or anything because below 3.0 would be a pretty hard situation. That being said, your background does set you apart which can play to your strengths. Given that you have ample work experiences and maturity by nature of being non-traditional it can give you some soft bonuses that your standard KJD with a 3.4 may lack. I agree with all the other commentators of setting your sights beyond biglaw and looking for smaller IP shops. Since you have a kid and family anyways, this may actually be better for you because being a junior associate at biglaw firms can be hard for those not in your mid-20s that have other important responsibilities that they cannot just reschedule on a dime.

[ChickenSalad]

You’ll almost definitely strike out at OCI but you could cushion your GPA in 2L and 3L classes with higher median GPAs and finish ok overall. Your WE and patent focus helps. Generally speaking, career services is unhelpful but they can probably give some insight into how others have done and where you might focus to maximize your chances. If you can get in the door for an interview, you’ll have a real leg up

Take a shot at OCI, also look to smaller firms and boutiques (and network obviously). No one here can advise whether you should drop out. A lower 1l GPA isn’t a death sentence on your career though.

[Anonymous User]

OP Here.

Thinking about what to do this summer, the only options available now are interns for judges. Would that help in any way?

[Anonymous User]

. . . for Duke, ATL/Miami and NY, . . . .

If OP is actually at Duke, don't skimp on Raleigh and Charlotte. They aren't biglaw dollars, but NC is certainly not New York cost of living. Plus I know several people who went local NC and eventually lateraled to DC and NY.

[Anonymous User]

You’ll almost definitely strike out at OCI but you could cushion your GPA in 2L and 3L classes with higher median GPAs and finish ok overall. Your WE and patent focus helps. Generally speaking, career services is unhelpful but they can probably give some insight into how others have done and where you might focus to maximize your chances. If you can get in the door for an interview, you’ll have a real leg up

Take a shot at OCI, also look to smaller firms and boutiques (and network obviously). No one here can advise whether you should drop out. A lower 1l GPA isn’t a death sentence on your career though.

I strongly disagree re: striking out and CS being unhelpful, mostly because I've seen people in similar situations get jobs from OCI precisely because CS helped them. OP - decide for yourself whether CS is helpful or not, but don't ignore a resource that can help you get to your goal just because ChickenSalad doesn't like it.

Also disagree re: advice on dropping out. ChickenSalad is right that it's YOUR decision, but wrong that people ITT can't give you different perspectives or help you weigh your options.

[eepatentatty]

What's your technical background? If it's something like civil engineering, then it's probably going to be pretty tough to turn that GPA into a biglaw patent prosecution job. If it's EE or CS, then you probably aren't in that bad of a situation.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

I'm ME, with a masters. My experience is with EE topics ( like control systems or so, am listed as an inventor in a 1-2 controls patents)

And I'm at Michigan,
The local market sucks so bad that I feel depressed thinking about the IP firms in Michigan. My wife has almost agreed to move to Chicago. My worry is I don't have any connections in Chicago.

[Anonymous User]

I work in IP, and I agree you do have a shot. Grades aren't unimportant, but they often take a backseat to technical chops especially for the big prosecution shops. Is your undergrad degree from a reputable place?
Do you have a masters/PhD? Does your lower T14 offer a dual masters/JD program that you could take advantage of?

I Have a masters in ME. I worked mostly in controls and EE topics. I am listed as an inventor (through work) on some control system patents.

Thanks for the insight on the transfer. I do think I have an issue connecting with students, because most folks stay nearby school and they get to socialize. I get to my car and get back home as soon as I can, so that I can help the wife with kids and all

Re: grades, there are a ton of techniques out there, so I'm guessing you just haven't found a study technique that works for you yet. Anecdotally (and not surprisingly given that I also have a tech background), I'm a pretty terrible reader (reading comp was my worst section), so reading every case word for word didn't do much for me. In fact, I often get the wrong idea which causes troubles for me down the road. So I pretty much stopped reading half way through 1L, and instead focused all my energy on paying attention during class and a strong study group to outline leading up the the exams. My GPA started out pretty strong, but I landed a spring semester GPA that was about .3 higher than fall semester, all while doing less work.

It also sounds like exams are a bit of a blind spot for you. As a first step, I'd see if you can get some clarity on why your grades were lower. Did you get answers wrong? Did you not spot enough issues? Did you waffle rather than writing a clear and definitive answer? I would give different advice for all three of those. For the first, locate some solid outlines early in the semester to start reviewing, find a study buddy, start outlining early, and make sure your outline is perfect for exam day. For the second, find practice tests (if available) and do them all before exam day. Review them with a classmate or even the prof to see how you're doing. For the third, you probably need to do a little bit of both. I'd also combine that with just plain old talking with people about your classes. Debate the issues, ask hypotheticals, etc. - that will get you in the habit of thinking like a lawyer (or at least a law school exam taker).

Finally, consider whether you'd be better off taking classes that have a paper, rather than an exam. If writing is a challenge for you then that may not be the case, but it's worth exploring. I knew some people who were terrible at exams (mostly due to the pressure) and brought their GPA immensely just by avoiding them.

So, looking at the answers, I think what is going on, is I feel that my answers lack depth. I do know all the concepts, I never missed a reading and I kind of did okay on cold calls. However while writing, eventhough I found maybe 80% of the major points, i think they were not analyzed in depth.

Depth means like, for example - If A hit B, I would just write a tort of battery, no applicable defenses and move on. But the best answer would bring battery, elements of assault, defenses etc. For some reason in the exams it never strikes me to bring all the other factors. I think A long professional life of trying to be brief and making presentations does that to you I think.

I don't know what to change to add depth to my answers. I think maybe going through some answers might help .

Could you reach out to me. I think you understand my issues. My burner email is gsx1600rrr@gmail.com

[jhett]

Depth means like, for example - If A hit B, I would just write a tort of battery, no applicable defenses and move on. But the best answer would bring battery, elements of assault, defenses etc. For some reason in the exams it never strikes me to bring all the other factors. I think A long professional life of trying to be brief and making presentations does that to you I think.

You're thinking like an engineer - trying to get to an answer in the fewest number of steps. In a law school exam you should discuss all relevant factors. You can conclude that certain factors are not as relevant as other factors, but you need to actually express those thoughts on paper. You can't just brush it off in your head and never mention your thought process. Or in scientific terms - don't just give an answer, show your proof.

[Spartan_Alum_12]

OP here.

I'm ME, with a masters. My experience is with EE topics ( like control systems or so, am listed as an inventor in a 1-2 controls patents)

And I'm at Michigan,
The local market sucks so bad that I feel depressed thinking about the IP firms in Michigan. My wife has almost agreed to move to Chicago. My worry is I don't have any connections in Chicago.

I'll chime in even though you're a Wolverine .

While ME isn't as good as EE, there are quite a number of job openings for MEs in patent pros. As others have said, solid patent pros jobs are not limited to big law (which is still not out of the question for you), there are plenty of IP/patent boutiques where you can make good money and have a good career. Some of these firms can be better than big law for patent pros IMO (I won't get into that here). A lot of these firms don't care too much about your law school grades (the UM law degree will be enough) and will focus more on your tech background. Focusing on Chicago seems like a good idea as the Michigan legal market can be pretty limited. A lot of people with Midwest ties and a UM degree end up there. Although rare right out of law school, some firms are remote friendly (more so for smaller firms) if you really desire to stay in Michigan.

You mentioned interning for a judge this summer. I think doing that and passing the patent bar would be a fine 1L summer along with doing your best to get your grades up this spring. It's not critical to do patent pros 1L summer. Also make sure to attend the Loyola Patent Fair (in Chicago) this summer, which is basically an OCI for IP/patent students. Plenty of students have success finding 2L summer jobs there (you'll see both big firms and boutiques interviewing). Career services should have more info about that job fair. Other good sources for patent job openings are sites like Patently O. Even if the listing(s) require experience, they may be open to hiring a summer.

I wouldn't transfer. Others can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe transfer students typically get scholarship money. Also transferring "down" in schools wouldn't probably be the best look.

[Anonymous User]

Depth means like, for example - If A hit B, I would just write a tort of battery, no applicable defenses and move on. But the best answer would bring battery, elements of assault, defenses etc. For some reason in the exams it never strikes me to bring all the other factors. I think A long professional life of trying to be brief and making presentations does that to you I think.

You're thinking like an engineer - trying to get to an answer in the fewest number of steps. In a law school exam you should discuss all relevant factors. You can conclude that certain factors are not as relevant as other factors, but you need to actually express those thoughts on paper. You can't just brush it off in your head and never mention your thought process. Or in scientific terms - don't just give an answer, show your proof.

I'm the original poster re: exam tips. I agree with this, but also think you would benefit from making an attack outline for each exam. You do that by treeing everything in the class out like you're writing if/then code (if this issue comes up, then you must discuss all 4 elements of this test and consider X, Y, and Z other issues). The attack isn't meant for getting into nuances/specific rules - it's for sparking thought on the spot about what you'll need to address in your answer and what other issues you might consider as well. The best attack outlines then cite to your main outline indicating where you can actually find the rules/details or cases for comparison. Even if you get your outline from a bank, it's best to draft one of these yourself because it's direct practice for what you'll have to do on the exam (linking concepts together).

Also, MechE is not the strongest for patent law as the above poster noted, but your EE experience will be a big plus. Definitely make sure your resume succinctly summarizes your technical chops beyond just mech E.

[Anonymous User]

OP, Career Services can at least help you with your application materials and give you networking tips. I highly recommend specifically speaking with Pyper.

[Spartan_Alum_12]

Depth means like, for example - If A hit B, I would just write a tort of battery, no applicable defenses and move on. But the best answer would bring battery, elements of assault, defenses etc. For some reason in the exams it never strikes me to bring all the other factors. I think A long professional life of trying to be brief and making presentations does that to you I think.

You're thinking like an engineer - trying to get to an answer in the fewest number of steps. In a law school exam you should discuss all relevant factors. You can conclude that certain factors are not as relevant as other factors, but you need to actually express those thoughts on paper. You can't just brush it off in your head and never mention your thought process. Or in scientific terms - don't just give an answer, show your proof.

I'm the original poster re: exam tips. I agree with this, but also think you would benefit from making an attack outline for each exam. You do that by treeing everything in the class out like you're writing if/then code (if this issue comes up, then you must discuss all 4 elements of this test and consider X, Y, and Z other issues). The attack isn't meant for getting into nuances/specific rules - it's for sparking thought on the spot about what you'll need to address in your answer and what other issues you might consider as well. The best attack outlines then cite to your main outline indicating where you can actually find the rules/details or cases for comparison. Even if you get your outline from a bank, it's best to draft one of these yourself because it's direct practice for what you'll have to do on the exam (linking concepts together).

Also, MechE is not the strongest for patent law as the above poster noted, but your EE experience will be a big plus. Definitely make sure your resume succinctly summarizes your technical chops beyond just mech E.

Yes, spot on with your last paragraph. I would definitely highlight that EE experience on your resume.

[Anonymous User]

OP, Career Services can at least help you with your application materials and give you networking tips. I highly recommend specifically speaking with Pyper.

Pyper's alright but imho OP you should talk to the upperclassmen who are doing IP for advice. Career office here, not unlike most other law schools, are pretty useless. It's more helpful if you go to them for specific help (like doing mock interviews or resume reviews), but they're probably not gonna have useful advice for someone in your situation. I know of a case where someone in the same GPA band as you who received absolutely atrocious (like malpractice-level) advice from OCP that completely derailed their recruitment season.

As a general matter, make sure you're going to the different firm events that are happening right now. Talk to people there and try to form useful connections. Research the people who are coming to Meet the Employers and pick out a couple you really want to connect with based on their firm and practice areas, then go meet them. You'll definitely need to rely on networking and pre-OCI recruiting in your position unless you kill it this semester.

[glitched]

Does your school offer you free Westlaw and/or docket navigator? Maybe try to find some of the key mech E cases and see which lawyers/firms handled it and network? That's what I would try to do. And make sure to bring your 2L and 3L grades up. Fortunately a lot of students slack off more those years so it's possible to ace a lot of those classes.

[Anonymous User]

Does your school offer you free Westlaw and/or docket navigator? Maybe try to find some of the key mech E cases and see which lawyers/firms handled it and network? That's what I would try to do. And make sure to bring your 2L and 3L grades up. Fortunately a lot of students slack off more those years so it's possible to ace a lot of those classes.

Doesn't Westlaw offer free access to all law students? And are there key mech E cases? I'm not sure I'd be able to find them even with DN access and 6 years of experience. Also, if OP is interested in prosecution, both would be relatively unhelpful. Pros should be high up on OP's list because there's generally less competition than for IP lit (and the high achieving IP folks almost universally aim for lit).

I think the better path would be to just find IP lawyers in the markets OP is interested in that have a similar background (undergrad or law school and in tech, rather than bio/pharma side IP) and go directly to them. It's really easy to find that info from a firm website.

[glitched]

Does your school offer you free Westlaw and/or docket navigator? Maybe try to find some of the key mech E cases and see which lawyers/firms handled it and network? That's what I would try to do. And make sure to bring your 2L and 3L grades up. Fortunately a lot of students slack off more those years so it's possible to ace a lot of those classes.

Doesn't Westlaw offer free access to all law students? And are there key mech E cases? I'm not sure I'd be able to find them even with DN access and 6 years of experience. Also, if OP is interested in prosecution, both would be relatively unhelpful. Pros should be high up on OP's list because there's generally less competition than for IP lit (and the high achieving IP folks almost universally aim for lit).

I think the better path would be to just find IP lawyers in the markets OP is interested in that have a similar background (undergrad or law school and in tech, rather than bio/pharma side IP) and go directly to them. It's really easy to find that info from a firm website.

I thought OP wanted pros because lit was out of reach. But if he/she wants pros, then strategy isn't so strong. Problem with targeting market is that it's going to be really tough if its secondary. I guess it depends on the goals. Firms are becoming more flexible with letting associates work in different offices. For example, if there's a top mech E lawyer in NorCal or NY, I would try to reach out to that specific office and then make a case for a location switch.

[Anonymous User]

I don't have more advice over what was given (which is network and use that engineering background), but I was in a similar boat. GULC, 3.1 GPA after the first year. Had the added obstacle that my first semester grades were good, but my second semester grades were particularly bad (got swept up in personal drama and couldn't keep it together mentally). Networked a lot and got three callbacks and two offers. Moral of the story is that I think that especially with your background (IP lawyers are more in demand AFAIK) you can still make it, but you have to network.