Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back? Forum

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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:18 pm

Anecdotally, those counsel positions are not that WLB. Some counsels seem to think they are, but they don't last long.

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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by jotarokujo » Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:01 pm

As far as opportunity cost, most people who can get biglaw could have been a reasonably successful doctor/accountant/consultant/whatever, and topping out at $175k is much lower than what a doctor in private practice tops out at, or even an accountant at a reasonable sized firm. It is just a really bad financial outcome, all things considered, and strongly suggests that if your goal is to maximize lifetime earnings at a given level of work-life balance, you should have done something else.
I agree with this but my point is that since perma-council is already suboptimal monetarily compared to doing something out of undergrad, what's wrong with taking it a step further and being an AUSA? the decision to go to law school must have been driven by things other than money in the first place, why would those factors not also dictate what one wants to do with their law degree

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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:34 pm

ughbugchugplug wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:03 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:44 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:26 pm
OP here. Really just seeking input from people who left biglaw as a junior, and not on the financial implications of living a luxurious lifestyle in NYC. I don’t plan on sticking around because I came to biglaw to pay off my law school debt (which I’ve been able to do), so these are not really concerns I’m having. Not trying to live a fancy lifestyle—would rather have free time in what’s left of my younger years. Looking for folks who left the junior associate due diligence holes and are happy.
I left biglaw after year 4. AUSA now.

There's a skewing on this forum toward lawyers who are recent grads and who are motivated about biglaw. Keep that in mind while perusing through comments. I happen to be in neither of those categories. Many of them think that having a yacht but dying of a heart condition at age 62 with kids who hate them and (I'm male) 2 ex-wives is a cool plan, because who doesn't love yachts. Not for me. Most lawyers figure it out and get out way before then.

Many of them are also not accounting for the significant risk factors of attempting to survive the biglaw racket. To actually make it to that yacht, you have to assume that over the next 10-15 years you will (a) collect a large book of business that others are also competing for, and (b) not get taken down by hostile competition in general, through political squabbles that result in firing, lost clients, or whatever. Those are just the business risks; forget about the personal, emotional, and health risks. (Divorces. Mental health breakdowns. Medical problems because you will not be exercising sufficiently. Etc.)

The question of whether living a non-biglaw life can actually result in sustainable life and retirement kind of answers itself, doesn't it? What an absurd question to ask. If you are consistently earning an average of, let's say, $150,000 a year in 2023 dollars throughout your lifetime, plus accruing pension benefits, plus the federal TSP and other plans, do you really think retirement is out of the question?
It’s telling that people always give NY rent when arguing they can’t afford it. People, you can live outside NY! Lots of people do! New Jersey is nice! Connecticut is nice! And you can also live in less fancy parts of NY
Chicago is the 8th wealthiest city in the world by GDP and I’ve got a 3 bed 1600 sqft apt and was at 250k as a third year on full scale Cravath lol. But *gasp* I had to live on the Midwest/Chiraq.

Admittedly, most of Biglaw exists in NY so I understand the bias, but I really do think some people forget that there is a world outside of NY in this industry where the other half of Biglaw does, in fact, exist. No doubt, if you have to be the “top of the industry” your odds are better in NY, and it’s important to realize that the type of person that can’t see any purpose in life beyond that (by choice or not) is going to be more apt to post on these boards.

lawlo

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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by lawlo » Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:40 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:49 am
Title says most of it. For those of you who left in years 2-4, what are you up to now? Do you enjoy it? Do you regret it? Feeling incredibly burnt out and only figured I’d last a few years anyway.
Went in house as a third year at an F100 tech co with 270k all in comp (210 base, 30 bonus, 30 RSU/year). Don’t mean to brag or be an ass, just want to put figures out there for other juniors looking to leave.

I enjoyed Biglaw but it was always a means to an end to land exactly this type of job. I’m still somewhat shocked that it worked out like it did but every once in awhile life throws you a win.
Any more info you could provide! Practice area, firm type etc. This sounds great...

Res Ipsa Loquitter

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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by Res Ipsa Loquitter » Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:34 pm
ughbugchugplug wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:03 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:44 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:26 pm
OP here. Really just seeking input from people who left biglaw as a junior, and not on the financial implications of living a luxurious lifestyle in NYC. I don’t plan on sticking around because I came to biglaw to pay off my law school debt (which I’ve been able to do), so these are not really concerns I’m having. Not trying to live a fancy lifestyle—would rather have free time in what’s left of my younger years. Looking for folks who left the junior associate due diligence holes and are happy.
I left biglaw after year 4. AUSA now.

There's a skewing on this forum toward lawyers who are recent grads and who are motivated about biglaw. Keep that in mind while perusing through comments. I happen to be in neither of those categories. Many of them think that having a yacht but dying of a heart condition at age 62 with kids who hate them and (I'm male) 2 ex-wives is a cool plan, because who doesn't love yachts. Not for me. Most lawyers figure it out and get out way before then.

Many of them are also not accounting for the significant risk factors of attempting to survive the biglaw racket. To actually make it to that yacht, you have to assume that over the next 10-15 years you will (a) collect a large book of business that others are also competing for, and (b) not get taken down by hostile competition in general, through political squabbles that result in firing, lost clients, or whatever. Those are just the business risks; forget about the personal, emotional, and health risks. (Divorces. Mental health breakdowns. Medical problems because you will not be exercising sufficiently. Etc.)

The question of whether living a non-biglaw life can actually result in sustainable life and retirement kind of answers itself, doesn't it? What an absurd question to ask. If you are consistently earning an average of, let's say, $150,000 a year in 2023 dollars throughout your lifetime, plus accruing pension benefits, plus the federal TSP and other plans, do you really think retirement is out of the question?
It’s telling that people always give NY rent when arguing they can’t afford it. People, you can live outside NY! Lots of people do! New Jersey is nice! Connecticut is nice! And you can also live in less fancy parts of NY
Chicago is the 8th wealthiest city in the world by GDP and I’ve got a 3 bed 1600 sqft apt and was at 250k as a third year on full scale Cravath lol. But *gasp* I had to live on the Midwest/Chiraq.

Admittedly, most of Biglaw exists in NY so I understand the bias, but I really do think some people forget that there is a world outside of NY in this industry where the other half of Biglaw does, in fact, exist. No doubt, if you have to be the “top of the industry” your odds are better in NY, and it’s important to realize that the type of person that can’t see any purpose in life beyond that (by choice or not) is going to be more apt to post on these boards.
Chicagoland region may have a large economy, but the rent is cheap for a reason.

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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:00 pm

lawlo wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:44 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:40 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:49 am
Title says most of it. For those of you who left in years 2-4, what are you up to now? Do you enjoy it? Do you regret it? Feeling incredibly burnt out and only figured I’d last a few years anyway.
Went in house as a third year at an F100 tech co with 270k all in comp (210 base, 30 bonus, 30 RSU/year). Don’t mean to brag or be an ass, just want to put figures out there for other juniors looking to leave.

I enjoyed Biglaw but it was always a means to an end to land exactly this type of job. I’m still somewhat shocked that it worked out like it did but every once in awhile life throws you a win.
Any more info you could provide! Practice area, firm type etc. This sounds great...
My mix of experience is specific enough that I'll avoid being specific because it could out me, but let's just say I refused to specialize during my time in Biglaw (two practice group switches, working with other subgroups in the firm because I thought it was interesting, etc.). This (1) pissed Partners off and (2) ensured I could never be a decent Midlevel because I was too spread out. However, it made me a great in-house candidate, especially because I'd had a lot of direct client contact etc.

Current role is roughly half commercial contracting/transactions (so negotiating contracts, walking the business teams through potential risks, etc without holding up the deal), and the other half is "whatever the company needs" in a general corporate counsel context. There will be busy seasons when the company has big deals on the horizon, but it's a 9-5 job. Not going to lie, feels borderline criminal to have locked in this type of income given the hours and demands of the job. I think it comes out to about a third year associate's salary. A little more or less with Biglaw bonuses - I don't really count that because I always assumed I'd never hit that damn billable target - I hated billing hours and the V50 I ended at had a minimum for bonuses haha.

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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:52 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:28 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:50 pm
I left for an in-house gig during that time frame. I've been in-house for almost 10 years now with no regrets. I rarely work late/weekends, get to travel to interesting places for work from time to time, and have continued to learn/grow as a practitioner. I'd much rather be where I am now than grinding it out for 2,000 billables as a perma-counsel making only marginally more money than I make in-house.
This makes a lot of sense to me. Making $450k in house in a relatively pleasent job is likely equal to or better than making $600k as a biglaw perma-counsel. Its the people who are only making like $175k in government that I have questions about, because it really is a staggering pay cut as a 10 year+, and I'm not sure how you are supposed to be accumulating significant wealth for retirement at that salary level.
You can absolutely save enough for a comfortable retirement on $175k a year (including government benefits). If you compare yourself to biglaw partners, you’re going to be dissatisfied, but the vast majority of people in the world aren’t biglaw partners.

Plus I’m not sure why you’re talking about a 10+ yr biglaw person when the OP was asking about leaving as a junior. They’re not sticking around 10+ years.
"where are you now" doesn't have to mean 5 seconds later, it can also mean 5 years later. And for the type of social groups that lawyers keep, its going to be very tough to retire comfortably on $175k/year. For a lot of people that means 0 savings outside your 401k, with perhaps substantial debt as well. If you are going to live in rural Pennsylvania and your friends are in manual labor, then a $175k career cap on earnings can lead to a reasonable retirement. If you live in Manhattan and your friends are lawyers/doctors/bankers it is basically the road to bankruptcy.

Also the opportunity cost of going to law school to cap your career earnings at $175k is really really high, relative to other jobs you could have done.
The thing I think you are missing, though (I have not made it through the whole thread yet so maybe this is raised) is that biglaw attorneys who go to USAO ordinarily do not stay for their whole career. At least in my market, they ordinarily stay 5-7 years, then go back to a firm as equity partner, which they very well might not have done before, plus even if they had, the opportunities and lifestyle will be much more enjoyable as the "trial horse" than as a memo-drafting partner who is not ordinarily permitted to speak, or even appear, in court. I don't think your economics argument holds up except for the rare case of career USAOs, which definitely exist but in my area are ordinarily not trading a biglaw salary for the USAO.

Anonymous User
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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:18 pm

Res Ipsa Loquitter wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:54 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:34 pm
ughbugchugplug wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:03 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:44 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:26 pm
OP here. Really just seeking input from people who left biglaw as a junior, and not on the financial implications of living a luxurious lifestyle in NYC. I don’t plan on sticking around because I came to biglaw to pay off my law school debt (which I’ve been able to do), so these are not really concerns I’m having. Not trying to live a fancy lifestyle—would rather have free time in what’s left of my younger years. Looking for folks who left the junior associate due diligence holes and are happy.
I left biglaw after year 4. AUSA now.

There's a skewing on this forum toward lawyers who are recent grads and who are motivated about biglaw. Keep that in mind while perusing through comments. I happen to be in neither of those categories. Many of them think that having a yacht but dying of a heart condition at age 62 with kids who hate them and (I'm male) 2 ex-wives is a cool plan, because who doesn't love yachts. Not for me. Most lawyers figure it out and get out way before then.

Many of them are also not accounting for the significant risk factors of attempting to survive the biglaw racket. To actually make it to that yacht, you have to assume that over the next 10-15 years you will (a) collect a large book of business that others are also competing for, and (b) not get taken down by hostile competition in general, through political squabbles that result in firing, lost clients, or whatever. Those are just the business risks; forget about the personal, emotional, and health risks. (Divorces. Mental health breakdowns. Medical problems because you will not be exercising sufficiently. Etc.)

The question of whether living a non-biglaw life can actually result in sustainable life and retirement kind of answers itself, doesn't it? What an absurd question to ask. If you are consistently earning an average of, let's say, $150,000 a year in 2023 dollars throughout your lifetime, plus accruing pension benefits, plus the federal TSP and other plans, do you really think retirement is out of the question?
It’s telling that people always give NY rent when arguing they can’t afford it. People, you can live outside NY! Lots of people do! New Jersey is nice! Connecticut is nice! And you can also live in less fancy parts of NY
Chicago is the 8th wealthiest city in the world by GDP and I’ve got a 3 bed 1600 sqft apt and was at 250k as a third year on full scale Cravath lol. But *gasp* I had to live on the Midwest/Chiraq.

Admittedly, most of Biglaw exists in NY so I understand the bias, but I really do think some people forget that there is a world outside of NY in this industry where the other half of Biglaw does, in fact, exist. No doubt, if you have to be the “top of the industry” your odds are better in NY, and it’s important to realize that the type of person that can’t see any purpose in life beyond that (by choice or not) is going to be more apt to post on these boards.
Chicagoland region may have a large economy, but the rent is cheap for a reason.
Sure - and because the city is so often defined by people that don't live in it, I'll put the top three reasons below:

- it's cold and it's Midwestern
- crime: though this one isn't factually true - Chicago isn't in the top 50 most violent cities in the world. I believe it's in the top 100 in the USA, somewhere around 50 (nearly tied with Minneapolis I think where violent crime per 100k people is the metric).
- It's flat, unlike NYC the growth of the city isn't geographically constrained. The suburban sprawl can expand almost indefinitely, keep prices lower.
- Declining population in the state: Chi has had a stable population since the 1950s, neither booming nor busting. The trend continues, keeping prices stable.

Most of the knocks on Chicago I've notice come from people who have never visited. I don't want to contend that it's better than NY. I like it more than NY and would never ever live in NY but it's objectively not "better." It's cleaner. It's more well laid out and IMO it's a much better place to build a life because you get 80% of NYs perks at 50% of the cost, but it's not "better" objectively, that's just a fact.

BUT it, along with many other markets in the US, merit more thoughtful discussion and consideration in the context of practicing law, because there's more to life and this industry than the NY legal market. Much more.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428107
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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:52 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:28 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:50 pm
I left for an in-house gig during that time frame. I've been in-house for almost 10 years now with no regrets. I rarely work late/weekends, get to travel to interesting places for work from time to time, and have continued to learn/grow as a practitioner. I'd much rather be where I am now than grinding it out for 2,000 billables as a perma-counsel making only marginally more money than I make in-house.
This makes a lot of sense to me. Making $450k in house in a relatively pleasent job is likely equal to or better than making $600k as a biglaw perma-counsel. Its the people who are only making like $175k in government that I have questions about, because it really is a staggering pay cut as a 10 year+, and I'm not sure how you are supposed to be accumulating significant wealth for retirement at that salary level.
You can absolutely save enough for a comfortable retirement on $175k a year (including government benefits). If you compare yourself to biglaw partners, you’re going to be dissatisfied, but the vast majority of people in the world aren’t biglaw partners.

Plus I’m not sure why you’re talking about a 10+ yr biglaw person when the OP was asking about leaving as a junior. They’re not sticking around 10+ years.
"where are you now" doesn't have to mean 5 seconds later, it can also mean 5 years later. And for the type of social groups that lawyers keep, its going to be very tough to retire comfortably on $175k/year. For a lot of people that means 0 savings outside your 401k, with perhaps substantial debt as well. If you are going to live in rural Pennsylvania and your friends are in manual labor, then a $175k career cap on earnings can lead to a reasonable retirement. If you live in Manhattan and your friends are lawyers/doctors/bankers it is basically the road to bankruptcy.

Also the opportunity cost of going to law school to cap your career earnings at $175k is really really high, relative to other jobs you could have done.
The thing I think you are missing, though (I have not made it through the whole thread yet so maybe this is raised) is that biglaw attorneys who go to USAO ordinarily do not stay for their whole career. At least in my market, they ordinarily stay 5-7 years, then go back to a firm as equity partner, which they very well might not have done before, plus even if they had, the opportunities and lifestyle will be much more enjoyable as the "trial horse" than as a memo-drafting partner who is not ordinarily permitted to speak, or even appear, in court. I don't think your economics argument holds up except for the rare case of career USAOs, which definitely exist but in my area are ordinarily not trading a biglaw salary for the USAO.
I think this can be true, but also varies a lot. There are definitely districts where AUSAs rarely go to equity partner after 5-7 years. It’s very easy in a lot of places to spend 5-7 years working drug/gun/CP cases, none of which are going to get you equity partner anywhere. I also know a lot of USAO lifers, as well as government lifers (which goes to the point that people who leave biglaw for the USAO may not stay at the USAO even if they stay in government).

In any case, I try to push back on the AUSA —> equity partner narrative because I don’t think it’s that simple now and some people still believe it is. (Not saying that it doesn’t genuinely happen that way where you are, but it doesn’t always.)

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Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:52 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:28 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:50 pm
I left for an in-house gig during that time frame. I've been in-house for almost 10 years now with no regrets. I rarely work late/weekends, get to travel to interesting places for work from time to time, and have continued to learn/grow as a practitioner. I'd much rather be where I am now than grinding it out for 2,000 billables as a perma-counsel making only marginally more money than I make in-house.
This makes a lot of sense to me. Making $450k in house in a relatively pleasent job is likely equal to or better than making $600k as a biglaw perma-counsel. Its the people who are only making like $175k in government that I have questions about, because it really is a staggering pay cut as a 10 year+, and I'm not sure how you are supposed to be accumulating significant wealth for retirement at that salary level.
You can absolutely save enough for a comfortable retirement on $175k a year (including government benefits). If you compare yourself to biglaw partners, you’re going to be dissatisfied, but the vast majority of people in the world aren’t biglaw partners.

Plus I’m not sure why you’re talking about a 10+ yr biglaw person when the OP was asking about leaving as a junior. They’re not sticking around 10+ years.
"where are you now" doesn't have to mean 5 seconds later, it can also mean 5 years later. And for the type of social groups that lawyers keep, its going to be very tough to retire comfortably on $175k/year. For a lot of people that means 0 savings outside your 401k, with perhaps substantial debt as well. If you are going to live in rural Pennsylvania and your friends are in manual labor, then a $175k career cap on earnings can lead to a reasonable retirement. If you live in Manhattan and your friends are lawyers/doctors/bankers it is basically the road to bankruptcy.

Also the opportunity cost of going to law school to cap your career earnings at $175k is really really high, relative to other jobs you could have done.
The thing I think you are missing, though (I have not made it through the whole thread yet so maybe this is raised) is that biglaw attorneys who go to USAO ordinarily do not stay for their whole career. At least in my market, they ordinarily stay 5-7 years, then go back to a firm as equity partner, which they very well might not have done before, plus even if they had, the opportunities and lifestyle will be much more enjoyable as the "trial horse" than as a memo-drafting partner who is not ordinarily permitted to speak, or even appear, in court. I don't think your economics argument holds up except for the rare case of career USAOs, which definitely exist but in my area are ordinarily not trading a biglaw salary for the USAO.
I think this can be true, but also varies a lot. There are definitely districts where AUSAs rarely go to equity partner after 5-7 years. It’s very easy in a lot of places to spend 5-7 years working drug/gun/CP cases, none of which are going to get you equity partner anywhere. I also know a lot of USAO lifers, as well as government lifers (which goes to the point that people who leave biglaw for the USAO may not stay at the USAO even if they stay in government).

In any case, I try to push back on the AUSA —> equity partner narrative because I don’t think it’s that simple now and some people still believe it is. (Not saying that it doesn’t genuinely happen that way where you are, but it doesn’t always.)
duplicate
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:52 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:28 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:50 pm
I left for an in-house gig during that time frame. I've been in-house for almost 10 years now with no regrets. I rarely work late/weekends, get to travel to interesting places for work from time to time, and have continued to learn/grow as a practitioner. I'd much rather be where I am now than grinding it out for 2,000 billables as a perma-counsel making only marginally more money than I make in-house.
This makes a lot of sense to me. Making $450k in house in a relatively pleasent job is likely equal to or better than making $600k as a biglaw perma-counsel. Its the people who are only making like $175k in government that I have questions about, because it really is a staggering pay cut as a 10 year+, and I'm not sure how you are supposed to be accumulating significant wealth for retirement at that salary level.
You can absolutely save enough for a comfortable retirement on $175k a year (including government benefits). If you compare yourself to biglaw partners, you’re going to be dissatisfied, but the vast majority of people in the world aren’t biglaw partners.

Plus I’m not sure why you’re talking about a 10+ yr biglaw person when the OP was asking about leaving as a junior. They’re not sticking around 10+ years.
"where are you now" doesn't have to mean 5 seconds later, it can also mean 5 years later. And for the type of social groups that lawyers keep, its going to be very tough to retire comfortably on $175k/year. For a lot of people that means 0 savings outside your 401k, with perhaps substantial debt as well. If you are going to live in rural Pennsylvania and your friends are in manual labor, then a $175k career cap on earnings can lead to a reasonable retirement. If you live in Manhattan and your friends are lawyers/doctors/bankers it is basically the road to bankruptcy.

Also the opportunity cost of going to law school to cap your career earnings at $175k is really really high, relative to other jobs you could have done.
The thing I think you are missing, though (I have not made it through the whole thread yet so maybe this is raised) is that biglaw attorneys who go to USAO ordinarily do not stay for their whole career. At least in my market, they ordinarily stay 5-7 years, then go back to a firm as equity partner, which they very well might not have done before, plus even if they had, the opportunities and lifestyle will be much more enjoyable as the "trial horse" than as a memo-drafting partner who is not ordinarily permitted to speak, or even appear, in court. I don't think your economics argument holds up except for the rare case of career USAOs, which definitely exist but in my area are ordinarily not trading a biglaw salary for the USAO.
I think this can be true, but also varies a lot. There are definitely districts where AUSAs rarely go to equity partner after 5-7 years. It’s very easy in a lot of places to spend 5-7 years working drug/gun/CP cases, none of which are going to get you equity partner anywhere. I also know a lot of USAO lifers, as well as government lifers (which goes to the point that people who leave biglaw for the USAO may not stay at the USAO even if they stay in government).

In any case, I try to push back on the AUSA —> equity partner narrative because I don’t think it’s that simple now and some people still believe it is. (Not saying that it doesn’t genuinely happen that way where you are, but it doesn’t always.)
Agree this will be very market-specific and the revolving door I'm describing is probably limited to the top few legal markets -- the usual suspects. In mine (one of those) the revolving door is as strong as ever with a slew of recent hiring of 5-7 year AUSAs both at my firm and elsewhere over the last year and a half that has cleared out the ranks of many of the experienced but non-lifer AUSAs. Regardless, the larger point, which I think the above poster was failing to take into account when wondering why people would leave biglaw for USAO given the financial hit, is that I would be surprised if many of those making the move saw the fork in the road as "go to USAO vs. stay at biglaw and gun for partner." The career paths and daily lives of a biglaw trial horse vs. a biglaw discovery litigator are wildly different, and I doubt many lawyers have both interest in and aptitude for performing both of those roles. So I suspect that taking the financial hit is simply the "cost of doing business" en route to a much bigger paycheck on the other side of the job, and that the USAO-inclined associates who do not land AUSA positions in those major markets would instead move to a trial boutique or other firm or government agency where they could have a career more along the lines of what they would be seeking to accomplish by making the USAO move, rather than gunning for grinding out discovery for 30 years when they want to be a courtroom advocate.

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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:20 pm

Yes. I left my firm as a 3rd year associate and switched practice areas. I work for a boutique firm where I still work a lot but couldn't be happier. The hours are long but my work is much steadier and more predictable, and the people I work with, while most coming from large firms as well, don't have an ego or status. It's just a lot of fun day in and day out. A big factor for me joining this new firm was knowing how few lawyers left after joining - the work and lifestyle is such that people feel comfortable having a whole career here. I feel like the exception to the rule though about joining a super unique niche practice area and wanting to retire here now, so take all this with salt yada yada yada.

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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:01 pm

Left after 3 years, been in government for 4 now. I paid off my loans and bounced almost immediately after that. I now make around $200k and the hours are amazing. I love it. Yes, if you want a family, house, etc. in a HCOL city, things get very expensive - but I also can't imagine working a Big Law schedule with kids and feeling good about myself. If you look around you, nearly everyone in [Insert] city is making it work, likely making much less than you are - you'll be totally fine.

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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:36 pm

I clerked my first year out of law school, then did biglaw for two years. Left to join a firm in a much, much smaller legal market. My comp dropped from whatever market was for a third-year associate in 2020, to total comp of $120k-$130k. I am so much happier. I have a lot of autonomy, run my own cases, and the hours are way better. I feel like a real lawyer, and I have gained so much confidence from not constantly being nitpicked. People also just respect boundaries more and everyone has a life outside of work. I'm looking to transition to either government or in-house work now because I don't love litigating, but I don't regret leaving biglaw in the slightest. I might even accept a state government gig with total expected comp of, gasp, $95k.

I still max out my 401k every year, plus my spouse and I put several thousand more each month into investments. My spouse makes slightly less than I do. I'm very happy with our lifestyle, because two years in biglaw taught me that big paychecks aren't what fullfil me.

For context though I graduated with very little student loan debt (full scholarship). That helped a ton with financial flexibility.

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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:07 am

I moved post-clerkship to a boutique in a tertiary market. I billed about 2000 hours (a lot for the market) and made $210k as a third-year (caveat that this is well above local "market"). My wife's income adds another $100k. Housing is relatively inexpensive--you can afford a nice house on a $100k income--and the public schools are good. For now we're just saving (no debt). And work-wise I do interesting stuff, do classic "real lawyer" work (esp bc I'm at a lit boutique), and work with great lawyers. And culturally as a prior poster said, "everyone has a life"--basically everyone has kids (except me), with the constraints that implies. It's a good life, and one more people with ties to such a market should consider.

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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:23 am

This is a relatively niche area, but in funds practice there a a number of attorneys who go biglaw funds practice (helpful if you have an LP side focus) to in-house attorney at a large pension plan (think Calpers, etc.)

State government employees in the investment offices are typically some of the highest paid state government staff (many have publicly disclosed salaries), and you also usually qualify for the pension plan by working there. Know a lot of ex biglaw attorneys who went in with 3-5 years of experience, make a consistent $150-$215k, get off every other Friday and their retirement plan is getting a pension on salaries way higher than what other teachers or employees will get.

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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:33 am

OP here. Thanks, all. Think I’m going to kick it into high gear for midlaw and federal government apps.

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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by Barry grandpapy » Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:32 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:23 am
This is a relatively niche area, but in funds practice there a a number of attorneys who go biglaw funds practice (helpful if you have an LP side focus) to in-house attorney at a large pension plan (think Calpers, etc.)

State government employees in the investment offices are typically some of the highest paid state government staff (many have publicly disclosed salaries), and you also usually qualify for the pension plan by working there. Know a lot of ex biglaw attorneys who went in with 3-5 years of experience, make a consistent $150-$215k, get off every other Friday and their retirement plan is getting a pension on salaries way higher than what other teachers or employees will get.
Do you happen to know what firms would be ideal for landing those positions/best for LP exposure?

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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by Pulsar » Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:54 pm
Left biglaw as a 7th year. 205k base, 225k all in comp. Work literally like 10 hours a week, maybe less, and my health insurance is 100x better and 401k is matched. Have never answered an email after 6pm or on weekends. Have never received a question or request that required a response more urgently than like 24h.

My friends I left behind are now mostly permacounsel and make more than double what I make. I need to worry about money (like I took a one week vacation to Hawaii instead of a 2 week vacation recently, oh no). This is truly the best decision I ever made. My friends are often happy too, I think, but they often still complain about work and stress whereas I never do. But they think it was worth it — kind of a self selection thing?

(I wouldn’t have got this job if I had left as a junior. I worry about retirement more than I otherwise would have, but I feel like it will be fine. Live in Manhattan fwiw, but considering moving to Jersey).
Is your company hiring? Don't want you overburdened; it's always nice to work in teams and I could take 5 of those weekly hours off your plate :)

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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by hangtime813 » Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:54 pm
Left biglaw as a 7th year. 205k base, 225k all in comp. Work literally like 10 hours a week, maybe less, and my health insurance is 100x better and 401k is matched. Have never answered an email after 6pm or on weekends. Have never received a question or request that required a response more urgently than like 24h.

My friends I left behind are now mostly permacounsel and make more than double what I make. I need to worry about money (like I took a one week vacation to Hawaii instead of a 2 week vacation recently, oh no). This is truly the best decision I ever made. My friends are often happy too, I think, but they often still complain about work and stress whereas I never do. But they think it was worth it — kind of a self selection thing?

(I wouldn’t have got this job if I had left as a junior. I worry about retirement more than I otherwise would have, but I feel like it will be fine. Live in Manhattan fwiw, but considering moving to Jersey).
This is the magical unicorn many of us dream of.

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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by lawlo » Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:33 am

hangtime813 wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:54 pm
Left biglaw as a 7th year. 205k base, 225k all in comp. Work literally like 10 hours a week, maybe less, and my health insurance is 100x better and 401k is matched. Have never answered an email after 6pm or on weekends. Have never received a question or request that required a response more urgently than like 24h.

My friends I left behind are now mostly permacounsel and make more than double what I make. I need to worry about money (like I took a one week vacation to Hawaii instead of a 2 week vacation recently, oh no). This is truly the best decision I ever made. My friends are often happy too, I think, but they often still complain about work and stress whereas I never do. But they think it was worth it — kind of a self selection thing?

(I wouldn’t have got this job if I had left as a junior. I worry about retirement more than I otherwise would have, but I feel like it will be fine. Live in Manhattan fwiw, but considering moving to Jersey).
This is the magical unicorn many of us dream of.
From reading in house experiences on this site and others, it honestly doesn't seem like the elusive less than 40 hours a week job is that rare. Just wonder how to identify what jobs would be like this, as this is the goal.

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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:22 pm

Left as a third year to go join a start up as their third lawyer. Nearly four years later and I have zero regrets. Yes, I took a paycut but I still make more than enough to live comfortably in a HCOL area (and yes, max out my 401k). If/when the company goes public or gets sold I’ll more than make up for the deficit in base salary.

Work has been variable and interesting. Anything I don’t want to do or that’s beyond my expertise I just farm out to outside counsel. And the work-life balance is what really drives home the value. I have a daughter now and can’t imagine trying to balance big law with being a parent (assuming I want to be an involved and attentive parent).

The only thing I miss about the big law days was the camaraderie with my fellow associates. You’re spending literally every waking moment together and basically trauma bonding, so you do end up getting pretty close. My relationships with my coworkers now is much more arms length (especially now that I’m more senior in the company).

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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:11 pm

Left during my second year to become an AFPD. Love my job. Didn't hate BL, but just felt unfulfilled. I'm not one of the AFPDs that are insane about the mission, but I enjoy the work a lot. I find it stimulating, it has better hours (albeit, worse pay), and I'm given a lot of autonomy.
I'm very happy with my choice overall.

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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:53 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:22 pm
Left as a third year to go join a start up as their third lawyer. Nearly four years later and I have zero regrets. Yes, I took a paycut but I still make more than enough to live comfortably in a HCOL area (and yes, max out my 401k). If/when the company goes public or gets sold I’ll more than make up for the deficit in base salary.

Work has been variable and interesting. Anything I don’t want to do or that’s beyond my expertise I just farm out to outside counsel. And the work-life balance is what really drives home the value. I have a daughter now and can’t imagine trying to balance big law with being a parent (assuming I want to be an involved and attentive parent).

The only thing I miss about the big law days was the camaraderie with my fellow associates. You’re spending literally every waking moment together and basically trauma bonding, so you do end up getting pretty close. My relationships with my coworkers now is much more arms length (especially now that I’m more senior in the company).
"Start up" and "third lawyer" are interesting. How big was the company then? I'm trying to convince my boss to let me hire another lawyer and it's not going very well.

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Re: Any juniors who have left biglaw and never looked back?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:33 pm

I did almost 4 years of biglaw, went in-house and have not looked back. Make less than my peers from law school who are still in biglaw, but still make much more than I need and save 6 figures per year. Rarely work nights and weekends. Have much more autonomy and control over my life, and get much more enjoyment out of my work. Zero regrets.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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