Senior Associate at a Crossroads Forum

[Anonymous User]

I am a senior associate in New York in a core transactional practice (think capital markets or banking) weighing two offers and don’t know what to do. Hoping to get some advice.

I’m coming off a brief sabbatical. I have no interest in in-house exit options, and would just like to make as much money in private practice as quickly as possible so I can retire.

I have offers from a V10 and a V50, and can’t decide. Here are the pro/cons:

V10
Pros
* Debatably the number one practice group in the world in what I do.
* No hours requirement for bonuses.
Cons
* Probably zero chance of making partner. Almost all their partners are homegrown. I’ll probably get pushed out in two or three years, or maybe make counsel.
* I’d have to make first impressions from scratch.
* I have no idea how bad the hours/culture will be.
* High risk of imposter syndrome being surrounded by all the other homegrown seniors there.
* Not sure how the value of the brand is impacted for my purposes considering I’m not interested in in-house exits.

V50
Pros
* A partner is retiring in about six years and they don’t have a senior associate. The plan they laid out was for me to come service that book for a few years under the retiring partner and then take it over when they do.
* I started my career at this firm, so my reputation is already set.
Cons
* This firm is not Chambers ranked in my practice area, and my practice area is an afterthought within the firm.
* I know the hours are bad—this firm churns and burns through associates, I just survived when others didn’t. Juniors also tend to be bottom of the barrel.

What would you take if you were in my shoes? Am I thinking about this the right way?

[sparty99]

I am a senior associate in New York in a core transactional practice (think capital markets or banking) weighing two offers and don’t know what to do. Hoping to get some advice.

I’m coming off a brief sabbatical. I have no interest in in-house exit options, and would just like to make as much money in private practice as quickly as possible so I can retire.

I have offers from a V10 and a V50, and can’t decide. Here are the pro/cons:

V10
Pros
* Debatably the number one practice group in the world in what I do.
* No hours requirement for bonuses.
Cons
* Probably zero chance of making partner. Almost all their partners are homegrown. I’ll probably get pushed out in two or three years, or maybe make counsel.
* I’d have to make first impressions from scratch.
* I have no idea how bad the hours/culture will be.
* High risk of imposter syndrome being surrounded by all the other homegrown seniors there.
* Not sure how the value of the brand is impacted for my purposes considering I’m not interested in in-house exits.

V50
Pros
* A partner is retiring in about six years and they don’t have a senior associate. The plan they laid out was for me to come service that book for a few years under the retiring partner and then take it over when they do.
* I started my career at this firm, so my reputation is already set.
Cons
* This firm is not Chambers ranked in my practice area, and my practice area is an afterthought within the firm.
* I know the hours are bad—this firm churns and burns through associates, I just survived when others didn’t. Juniors also tend to be bottom of the barrel.

What would you take if you were in my shoes? Am I thinking about this the right way?

Only you can decide, so not sure why you are asking a board. Also, six years to become Partner is a long time. At this point in your career you should not give a fuck about Chambers ranking and should know what is important: working with people you like and who respect you, hours, salary, and a clear path for the future. Also if neither of options one or two are exciting, choose option 3 and continue to look. Or take whatever seems best at this point in your career. Neither option is a death sentence and you have agency to leave whenever you decide.

[Anonymous User]

I would take the V50. I recently lateraled from a V50 to a V10 in M&A. I regret it because there's so many partners to impress and every damn day is a "first impression" test. I had a ton of respect from partners at my prior firm. I left because I wasn't sure if I would make partner anywhere and thought the V10 would set me up for better exit opportunities in case I needed to exit. If your goal is to make money and you don't want in-house, then I would go where you are comfortable and don't worry about the rankings. The one thing that I completely underestimated was how different the work is between firms. My prior firm focused on PE. My new firm does all M&A (pubco, startups, PE, bankruptcy, etc.) and there's just too much to master.

[Anonymous User]

If your goal is to make as much money as possible, I'd just go to v10 since there is no hours requirement (or look at other lower vault firms with no hours requirement if you are worried about working too much at this particular v10). I can't stress enough how important guaranteed bonus is once you are senior enough. Even if you only make it 2-3 years at v10 - at senior associate salary + bonus is a lot of money and I am assuming you will be at a good point, financially.

So you left your prior firm and took some time off? Did you have a hard time explaining why you took time off/gap on your resume? curious, since I am also a senior associate and considering take some time off as well before coming back into biglaw/going inhouse.

[Anonymous User]

Sounds like the right mindset—maximize your chances at making partner.

I’d ask your firm to make you partner before the senior partner retires. That should be doable—the Sith Lord + apprentice combo is pretty common (especially in finance). If they shut the door on that convo, then they’re prob just bullshitting you (you’ve likely heard that same setup marketed by recruiters more than once—my gut has always told me that’s just a way for shitty shops to snag good seniors).

The V10 has all the risks you’ve named, but if making counsel there is achievable and a good springboard to a lateral JP elsewhere, and if option 1 in the paragraph above isn’t doable, then I’d jump.

You should also map out the years it’d take for promotion and be as precise as you can be. I had a somewhat similar situation and made a lateral move, only to discover later that the track at my destination is a lot longer than I had anticipated. Each year you’re delayed from partnership will cost you a lot of money, to the tune of about $200-300k per year for the first 3 years and then even more after that.

[Wanderingdrock]

If your goal is to make as much money as possible, I'd just go to v10 since there is no hours requirement (or look at other lower vault firms with no hours requirement if you are worried about working too much at this particular v10). I can't stress enough how important guaranteed bonus is once you are senior enough. Even if you only make it 2-3 years at v10 - at senior associate salary + bonus is a lot of money and I am assuming you will be at a good point, financially.

So you left your prior firm and took some time off? Did you have a hard time explaining why you took time off/gap on your resume? curious, since I am also a senior associate and considering take some time off as well before coming back into biglaw/going inhouse.

No disrespect intended, but hard disagree with this advice. This prioritizes 2-3 years of guaranteed bonuses over a near-promise of partnership. Someone working toward partnership is unlikely to miss their hours, so you're almost certainly going to get all of the same bonuses at the V50, but even if you somehow don't, getting partnership will cancel out anything you lost in, like, a year. Two max.

The counterarguments are 1) you could maybe jump from the V10 to a V50 partnership anyway (would probably still require working really hard and building a book while at the V10) so guaranteeing a bonus in the meantime is good, and 2) guaranteeing a bonus means you won't have to work as hard at the V10 but... like, obviously not, it's a V10. And anyway, OP says they prioritize retiring ASAP, which I assume means they're willing to work hard to make that happen.

Senior associate salary + bonus is a lot of money, but we're not interested in the absolute values, just the relative difference between the two opportunities. Seems a no-brainer to take the V50 - just get the partnership offer nailed down as much as possible before joining.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

It really depends on how close you think you are to retirement. Some people are happy to retire (or go do something much easier) on $1M, some think they need over $5M.

If you think you’re five years away, take money that’s guaranteed and prioritize making your life easy at work. If you think you’re 20 years away, you might instead prioritize reasonable paths to partnership, even if it means taking on short-term risks.

[Anonymous User]

It really depends on how close you think you are to retirement. Some people are happy to retire (or go do something much easier) on $1M, some think they need over $5M.

If you think you’re five years away, take money that’s guaranteed and prioritize making your life easy at work. If you think you’re 20 years away, you might instead prioritize reasonable paths to partnership, even if it means taking on short-term risks.

OP here. Yeah these days I’m thinking $10mm ideally, but could call it at $5mm if needed. Currently sitting at a little under $1mm.

[Yardbird]

It really depends on how close you think you are to retirement. Some people are happy to retire (or go do something much easier) on $1M, some think they need over $5M.

If you think you’re five years away, take money that’s guaranteed and prioritize making your life easy at work. If you think you’re 20 years away, you might instead prioritize reasonable paths to partnership, even if it means taking on short-term risks.

OP here. Yeah these days I’m thinking $10mm ideally, but could call it at $5mm if needed. Currently sitting at a little under $1mm.

$5 million invested in a manner that gets you a 7% return would allow you $350K of pretax distributions a year without touching the principal.

$1 million at the same would give you $70K.

It’s really a question of what your COL and lifestyle creep is and whether you want to full retire or do something else with a shadow pension.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

OP here. Yeah these days I’m thinking $10mm ideally, but could call it at $5mm if needed. Currently sitting at a little under $1mm.

Welp, there’s no ASAP to $10M. You’re in this for decades; time to put your eggs in the partnership basket.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Yeah these days I’m thinking $10mm ideally, but could call it at $5mm if needed. Currently sitting at a little under $1mm.

Welp, there’s no ASAP to $10M. You’re in this for decades; time to put your eggs in the partnership basket.

OP here—yeah, thus just trying to maximize income and see where things end up (maybe I get to $5mm and it looks like a slog to $10mm, in which case maybe I hang it up around then, or maybe my practice booms and it comes quicker, who knows).

Curious as to your take on the original question (I always like your posts, interested in your take). If you’re trying to max out income, what would you pick? Seems like the V50 based on your other post, but is senior at V10 —> junior partner somewhere a less reasonable path than what’s (seemingly; I can’t decide how much I trust these overtures) on offer at my old firm?

[Anonymous User]

Sounds like the right mindset—maximize your chances at making partner.

I’d ask your firm to make you partner before the senior partner retires. That should be doable—the Sith Lord + apprentice combo is pretty common (especially in finance). If they shut the door on that convo, then they’re prob just bullshitting you (you’ve likely heard that same setup marketed by recruiters more than once—my gut has always told me that’s just a way for shitty shops to snag good seniors).

The V10 has all the risks you’ve named, but if making counsel there is achievable and a good springboard to a lateral JP elsewhere, and if option 1 in the paragraph above isn’t doable, then I’d jump.

You should also map out the years it’d take for promotion and be as precise as you can be. I had a somewhat similar situation and made a lateral move, only to discover later that the track at my destination is a lot longer than I had anticipated. Each year you’re delayed from partnership will cost you a lot of money, to the tune of about $200-300k per year for the first 3 years and then even more after that.

I like this advice and will see if I can do this this week.

Is this the kind of thing any firm would put in writing? Doubt it. At the end of the day I guess you’re probably just going off verbal assurances for this stuff, if you can even get that.

[Anonymous User]

Obviously option 2. In fact you should consider pushing said partner off a roof in about 3 years (once u can service the book).

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

OP here—yeah, thus just trying to maximize income and see where things end up (maybe I get to $5mm and it looks like a slog to $10mm, in which case maybe I hang it up around then, or maybe my practice booms and it comes quicker, who knows).

Curious as to your take on the original question (I always like your posts, interested in your take). If you’re trying to max out income, what would you pick? Seems like the V50 based on your other post, but is senior at V10 —> junior partner somewhere a less reasonable path than what’s (seemingly; I can’t decide how much I trust these overtures) on offer at my old firm?

A proposed path to partnership is not a lock but for financial purposes it’s worth way more than starting over somewhere else or trying to lateral into something. Stick with the V50 and see if they’re progressing you like they say they will.

[Anonymous User]

Friend was in a similar position where he was offered partnership within 2 years of lateraling. It never happened and he quit. It's hard for me to imagine there's any truth to what firms pitch when hiring associates. But that's just one anecdote.

[Sackboy]

Friend was in a similar position where he was offered partnership within 2 years of lateraling. It never happened and he quit. It's hard for me to imagine there's any truth to what firms pitch when hiring associates. But that's just one anecdote.

I think that's a real problem. I've seen success stories, but you also know there has to be a graveyard of people who were told that they'd be up for (and presumably supported) for equity partnership in 2-3 years and then got told "it's not time yet" or "it's not happening." Find anyone's LinkedIn profile where they were maybe somewhere for 8-10 years without a partner title and then at 3 other V50s for 2 years a piece with a partner, and I think you can assume that they were given a nonequity partner spot and then not promoted up in 90% of the cases.

[fs33]

I vote V50 and it’s not particularly close IMO. If you’re in a core practice group, you presumably have tons of internal competition at V10 that had years of relationships that you don’t have both internal and with clients.

[Anonymous User]

While you probably can't get an iron clad guarantee, if they are serious about promoting you to partner, you can likely secure some sort of financial promise from them if it doesn't happen. I was promised something similar and when I pressed them about putting it in writing, they agreed to pay me a $250k bonus if I didn't make partner at the specified time, even if it was my fault. Something to think about.

[Anonymous User]

Count me among the people that say V50 and it's not all that close. There are never any promises of partnership, but the V50 offer and your background at the firm are about as close as you'll ever get. You're concerned about your ability to perform at the V10 and making shares at any V10 is a crapshoot. No idea what your practice area is but things are kind of slow right now as a general matter so it's a difficult time to come in with no reputation and only a couple of years to prove your partnership chops.

Take the V50.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. I went with the V50. Hopefully the gamble pays off. Appreciate all the advice.

[Anonymous User]

Sorry for the off topic question but what do people mean by "banking" as a practice? Is that just another word for finance or does it imply something else? (asking as a junior in levfin)

[existentialcrisis]

Sorry for the off topic question but what do people mean by "banking" as a practice? Is that just another word for finance or does it imply something else? (asking as a junior in levfin)

In my experience, yes, it’s just synonymous with “finance” or “credit”.