Drop out? 3.0X Forum

[Anonymous User]

Received my grades and got all Bs and one B+. Below median and worried I can’t get my grades up !

[nealric]

It's certainly not ideal, but I think the general consensus in this school band is that as long as you have at least a 3.0 you have a reasonable shot at biglaw. I could see dropping out with bottom 5% grades (like multiple Cs/Ds, but that's not where you are. You only have one semester of grades, and even going from a B to a B+ average can make a huge difference. Don't write off the possibility of improving. I personally improved quite a bit from first to second semester. Some people who did well first semester will rest on their laurels, and you may find you just click better with your second semester professors/classes.

Few firms really and truly have hard floors for grades. They may say they do, your career services may say they do, but it's rarely a hard floor. This is especially true when we are talking about lower-tier biglaw firms. In practice, they may go up or down based on their needs that year, the other applicants that bid their firm, how much they personally like you during OCI, and a range of other intangibles.

My biggest item of advice (assuming you want biglaw which it sounds like you do) is to bid strategically. You can typically get data from career services on what firms hired what GPA ranges. Target firms that typically hire a lot of students from your school with grades in your range. Firms with large class sizes in NYC tend to be the easiest. Don't waste bids on moonshots or random firms in small markets you have no connection to.

[Anonymous User]

I'm at Michigan so my thoughts would apply to someone with your GPA at Michigan (though I'm pretty sure you're not at M based on what you said, I'm also sure there isn't a material difference in biglaw selectivity between M and VDN). I think 3.0X is doable for biglaw out of Michigan if you stick with New York firms with low selectivity and large class sizes. Even assuming you do not improve in 1L spring, I'd say your chances of landing biglaw assuming you bid wisely with your GPA is still better than 50%. If you do improve to say a 3.2-3.3, you'd really have to actively screw up to not land biglaw. Even if, god forbid, you strike out at OCI, there are also other options out there, like Delaware biglaw, where you could work for a couple of years making slightly less than market to get valuable legal experience and then lateral over to a major market like New York.

The caveat is that the market has been hot the last two years and I have no idea what firm economics will be like by summer when they make decisions on the size of their summer classes. A lot of TLS folks went to law school during the Great Recession so they tend to be more jaded about the market's prospects, though that may be a little unwarranted now. Regardless, I wouldn't drop out. The fact that you're attending a great law school means you have some general intellectual aptitude, and even if you don't necessarily know how to do well on law school exams (which has little resemblance to most law practices), that doesn't mean you won't be a good lawyer. Firms know this too and will consider this when interviewing candidates from good schools.

[existentialcrisis]

Over the past threw years I would have said you still had a pretty solid shot of landing something at OCI, this year it may be tougher/more selective with what I assume will be substantially smaller class sizes.

That being said, I don't think you need to drop out. If you strike out at OCI, you can probably still bring up your grades a good bit as 2L with softer curves. It's not the easiest road, but T14 OCI strikeouts do pretty frequently from what I've seen often end up landing a firm eventually before or shortly after graduation. Now if the economy totally tanks that's a different story, but that's pretty tough to predict.

In the short term, obviously focus on trying to improve your grades this semester, which I'm sure you're doing already. At OCI you probably need to bid almost entirely New York, focusing on the firms with large class sizes that aren't very grade selective. If you have close ties to a secondary/tertiary market with firms that hire SAs you should bid on those and also just email their recruiting folks if they don't come to your OCI.

[Anonymous User]

Are you taking out loans to fund law school? If so, how much?

Also make sure to review your exams with your professor just in case there is something super off with your exam writing that is an easy fix.

[Anonymous User]

Give it one more semester and then drop out if you strike out in OCI. The additional 1 semester of debt is probably worth the risk. Just give it your all now and try to tweak whatever you were doing that wasn't working well. Work smarter this semester.

[Anonymous User]

Are you taking out loans to fund law school? If so, how much?

Also make sure to review your exams with your professor just in case there is something super off with your exam writing that is an easy fix.

I am taking out loans. Hoping to keep the loans under $100k overall, but that figure is assuming I land an SA job. If I do not land one, then the amount I take out will be over $100k

[Anonymous User]

It's certainly not ideal, but I think the general consensus in this school band is that as long as you have at least a 3.0 you have a reasonable shot at biglaw. I could see dropping out with bottom 5% grades (like multiple Cs/Ds, but that's not where you are. You only have one semester of grades, and even going from a B to a B+ average can make a huge difference. Don't write off the possibility of improving. I personally improved quite a bit from first to second semester. Some people who did well first semester will rest on their laurels, and you may find you just click better with your second semester professors/classes.

Few firms really and truly have hard floors for grades. They may say they do, your career services may say they do, but it's rarely a hard floor. This is especially true when we are talking about lower-tier biglaw firms. In practice, they may go up or down based on their needs that year, the other applicants that bid their firm, how much they personally like you during OCI, and a range of other intangibles.

My biggest item of advice (assuming you want biglaw which it sounds like you do) is to bid strategically. You can typically get data from career services on what firms hired what GPA ranges. Target firms that typically hire a lot of students from your school with grades in your range. Firms with large class sizes in NYC tend to be the easiest. Don't waste bids on moonshots or random firms in small markets you have no connection to.

That's what I plan on doing. Do you have any idea what firms this may include in NYC? I honestly am just worried because I have no relevant work experience, not doing mock trial/moot court (I don't want litigation), and I'm unlikely to even make a journal at this point, let alone law review. I did one legal externship in college, and another (very short, think 1-2 week) legal internship in LS. Only other extracurricular I did in college was joining a sorority, which I just don't have much to talk about. I did do well on the LSAT, but fwiw, I think LG/LR really pulled me through that, whereas my RC and Essay really faltered quite a bit which in my OP is what bears the most resemblance to law school exams.

I don't feel like I am the best interviewer, mostly because I think I get nervous and tell myself not to mess it up, which fwiw, is the same thing I did on law school exams. I think a big thing for me will be to figure out how to not let the anxiety during the exam screw me because I honestly believe that played a major role in doing poorly. Yes, one could say what about the LSAT but the difference is that the LSAT can be retaken, whereas this cannot. So a lot of anxiety comes with that.

I know you said to improve, but I'm just wondering, if I don't improve (say, get another 3.0 next semester), do you think it would be worth dropping out at that point then?

[Anonymous User]

Are you taking out loans to fund law school? If so, how much?

Also make sure to review your exams with your professor just in case there is something super off with your exam writing that is an easy fix.

Also I should add that I don't think anything was "off" in and of itself in the exams. I think I just struggle to analyze the problems when under a time crunch. A lot of it is attributable to anxiety as I stated in another comment. Anxiety is no excuse (I know this), but it's not like you can take a Xanax before the exam and still end up doing well on it (as those make one very drowsy). I know someone might reply to this comment saying BL is a lot of anxiety, which yes, I understand and appreciate, but I doubt that the anxiety is not the same as being tested on 3-4 months of material in one timed four hour exam that you know will be a major determining factor in your future, including whether or not you can pay off the debt you have already incurred. If I wasn't going into debt for this, I would probably have no problem staying and just trying my best. But, unfortunately, that's not the case ):

[Anonymous User]

I did OCI with a 3.1 at one of the schools you listed. I struck out at OCI but was mass applying at the same time, so I ended up at a midsized firm in a secondary market where I didn't have ties, $190k salary for first years. I tried 3L OCI without luck for market paying firms

I know peers who struck out with a 3.0. One of them just got an offer from a midsized firm that pays $140k in a major market as a 3L, and worked the 2L summer at a small firm in another major market that paid hourly. Another classmate ended up switching to public interest

Tbh it's a gamble. I didn't focus exclusively on NYC so maybe that was a mistake on my part. Nonetheless, you should be prepared to be flexible and that you may not get a market paying SA

[Anonymous User]

I always want to chime in on these threads and say that a lot of this decision comes down to personal stuff that the people on this forum don't have enough information to weigh in on. You're talking about not just the odds of getting a job, but totally changing your life and career path. I definitely advise spending some good long talks with the people you have close relationships with, taking a look at your mental health, thinking about your values and priorities, etc.

Having said that, if the question is just purely "can I get a job and have a good career with these grades," I think the answer is yes.

[Anonymous User]

At one of the following: MVDN. Received my grades and got all Bs except for Civil Procedure (B+). Our school has a 3.4 average, 3.3 (B+) median for 1L classes. I know the common knowledge is to go back and try harder next semester but the fact of the matter is I did actually try this past semester and do not feel like I will be able to go and somehow get all A's (or even all B+s, fwiw) to raise my GPA.

I'm kind of at a loss on how to proceed here. I don't like law school, haven't enjoyed it at all, but I have actually enjoyed the two legal internship/externship things I have done. If I would be unable to get BL with my GPA, I don't really see the point in staying in. Unfortunately they have not told us what the GPA floors are for different firms, and I'm not sure when they will do so (probably not before we have to be back in classes for second semester).

Experienced AUSA here. Are you addicted to the crack-infused lifestyle of biglaw because of student loans? Your debt loan is probably the biggest criteria to decide what to do next. If you financially have no choice but to make it to biglaw because of that debt load, then dropping out might be a wise decision. But if your debt load is low or non-existent, why has biglaw become the end all be all? The vast majority of biglaw attorneys leave biglaw after about 3-4 years, so this is not a stable career foundation in the first place. It's like a high salary internship really.

You don't like law school but you do like the externships you've done. Interesting. Did you like Constitutional Law? Have you taken any Supreme Court seminars? What practice areas were the externships in--I assume in government or public service? Are you seeing a common thread here? The practice of law is fun as hell for many of us, if you're involved in the fulfilling and exhilarating topics. And no judging here of people who do actually get emotional thrills from studying commercial contracts--you do you--but if that's NOT you, then get out.

My bottom line: If you're taking on massive debt and aren't independently wealthy, you may want to drop out.

[jotarokujo]

At one of the following: MVDN. Received my grades and got all Bs except for Civil Procedure (B+). Our school has a 3.4 average, 3.3 (B+) median for 1L classes. I know the common knowledge is to go back and try harder next semester but the fact of the matter is I did actually try this past semester and do not feel like I will be able to go and somehow get all A's (or even all B+s, fwiw) to raise my GPA.

I'm kind of at a loss on how to proceed here. I don't like law school, haven't enjoyed it at all, but I have actually enjoyed the two legal internship/externship things I have done. If I would be unable to get BL with my GPA, I don't really see the point in staying in. Unfortunately they have not told us what the GPA floors are for different firms, and I'm not sure when they will do so (probably not before we have to be back in classes for second semester).

Experienced AUSA here. Are you addicted to the crack-infused lifestyle of biglaw because of student loans? Your debt loan is probably the biggest criteria to decide what to do next. If you financially have no choice but to make it to biglaw because of that debt load, then dropping out might be a wise decision. But if your debt load is low or non-existent, why has biglaw become the end all be all? The vast majority of biglaw attorneys leave biglaw after about 3-4 years, so this is not a stable career foundation in the first place. It's like a high salary internship really.

You don't like law school but you do like the externships you've done. Interesting. Did you like Constitutional Law? Have you taken any Supreme Court seminars? What practice areas were the externships in--I assume in government or public service? Are you seeing a common thread here? The practice of law is fun as hell for many of us, if you're involved in the fulfilling and exhilarating topics. And no judging here of people who do actually get emotional thrills from studying commercial contracts--you do you--but if that's NOT you, then get out.

My bottom line: If you're taking on massive debt and aren't independently wealthy, you may want to drop out.

are you suggesting that it's a bad sign if OP likes con law?

[Anonymous User]

At one of the following: MVDN. Received my grades and got all Bs except for Civil Procedure (B+). Our school has a 3.4 average, 3.3 (B+) median for 1L classes. I know the common knowledge is to go back and try harder next semester but the fact of the matter is I did actually try this past semester and do not feel like I will be able to go and somehow get all A's (or even all B+s, fwiw) to raise my GPA.

I'm kind of at a loss on how to proceed here. I don't like law school, haven't enjoyed it at all, but I have actually enjoyed the two legal internship/externship things I have done. If I would be unable to get BL with my GPA, I don't really see the point in staying in. Unfortunately they have not told us what the GPA floors are for different firms, and I'm not sure when they will do so (probably not before we have to be back in classes for second semester).

Experienced AUSA here. Are you addicted to the crack-infused lifestyle of biglaw because of student loans? Your debt loan is probably the biggest criteria to decide what to do next. If you financially have no choice but to make it to biglaw because of that debt load, then dropping out might be a wise decision. But if your debt load is low or non-existent, why has biglaw become the end all be all? The vast majority of biglaw attorneys leave biglaw after about 3-4 years, so this is not a stable career foundation in the first place. It's like a high salary internship really.

You don't like law school but you do like the externships you've done. Interesting. Did you like Constitutional Law? Have you taken any Supreme Court seminars? What practice areas were the externships in--I assume in government or public service? Are you seeing a common thread here? The practice of law is fun as hell for many of us, if you're involved in the fulfilling and exhilarating topics. And no judging here of people who do actually get emotional thrills from studying commercial contracts--you do you--but if that's NOT you, then get out.

My bottom line: If you're taking on massive debt and aren't independently wealthy, you may want to drop out.

are you suggesting that it's a bad sign if OP likes con law?

No, the opposite. If my rambling is confusing, I'm trying to say that he might like law school more if he pursues classes that cover topics that are more interesting to him.

The fact that he likes his externships suggests this might prove true, but we don't know what his externships are about.

[jdoeman1234567]

At one of the following: MVDN. Received my grades and got all Bs except for Civil Procedure (B+). Our school has a 3.4 average, 3.3 (B+) median for 1L classes. I know the common knowledge is to go back and try harder next semester but the fact of the matter is I did actually try this past semester and do not feel like I will be able to go and somehow get all A's (or even all B+s, fwiw) to raise my GPA.

I'm kind of at a loss on how to proceed here. I don't like law school, haven't enjoyed it at all, but I have actually enjoyed the two legal internship/externship things I have done. If I would be unable to get BL with my GPA, I don't really see the point in staying in. Unfortunately they have not told us what the GPA floors are for different firms, and I'm not sure when they will do so (probably not before we have to be back in classes for second semester).

I’d still say you have a strong shot at biglaw as long as you bid wisely. You should target less selective New York firms with large class sizes and network with those firms a bit if possible.

How did you study? I personally had a bad first semester and then got basically straight As by changing my studying habits and learning how to take a law school test. I worked really hard my first semester too but I just studied inefficiently and in a way that didn’t work for me. After the first semester, I stopped briefing cases myself and instead read from a supplement. I also prioritized reading from an old outline for the class throughout the semester, which I added notes to throughout the semester as well.

[GFox345]

Not living up to your expectations for grades sucks, but you need to take a deep breath and remember that this scenario is precisely why you went to a T14. Having went to one of the schools in the band you mentioned, I can tell you that every person that I knew that wanted big law got it. Some had to mass mail after OCI, but they all ended up getting jobs that raised their earning potential from pre-law school and put them in a position to comfortably service their debt.

If you had gone to a lesser law school, you'd be in trouble. Focus on doing as well as you can second semester and interviewing well at OCI. Trust in the reputation of the school you're paying so much for.

[BansheeScream]

You're either at Virginia or Northwestern based on your original post. DC and Chicagoare both competitive markets but both those schools should place fine into New York. Like others have said, if you want big law target less selective NYC firms with large classes and show interest in the work that they do a lot of.

I don't know your specific situation but there are plenty of mid size firms (and frankly larger firms - JD in Cleveland for example) in desirable cities that will hire basically anyone normal from a t14 if you have ties to the city. Think home town, partner is from there, went to undergrad there.

I also don't know your debt situation but I wouldn't recommend dropping out of a t14 because you had a below median first semester. One good semester can put you back on track. Read some of the guides on here on how to study, read getting to maybe, do practice tests, and reevaluate after OCI this upcoming summer. Liking law school is also not an indication that you will not like the practice of law especially if you enjoy your internships.

[Antetrust]

Take a deep breath. 50% of all law students have below median GPA, yet almost all will manage to find jobs. It sounds to me like you are focused too much on comparing yourself to others. You're already in a better spot than 90% of the country. Change your study and testing habits - ask for advice on how to do so - and keep working hard. Everything will be okay!

[Anonymous User]

At one of the following: MVDN. Received my grades and got all Bs except for Civil Procedure (B+). Our school has a 3.4 average, 3.3 (B+) median for 1L classes. I know the common knowledge is to go back and try harder next semester but the fact of the matter is I did actually try this past semester and do not feel like I will be able to go and somehow get all A's (or even all B+s, fwiw) to raise my GPA.

I'm kind of at a loss on how to proceed here. I don't like law school, haven't enjoyed it at all, but I have actually enjoyed the two legal internship/externship things I have done. If I would be unable to get BL with my GPA, I don't really see the point in staying in. Unfortunately they have not told us what the GPA floors are for different firms, and I'm not sure when they will do so (probably not before we have to be back in classes for second semester).

Not to be harsh but what I think you need to work on is not your grades per se but how you are trying to give up after one mediocre semester. Just take a deep breath and think whether working harder next semester and handling the rigor of big law is the best option for you going forward.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Take a deep breath. 50% of all law students have below median GPA, yet almost all will manage to find jobs. It sounds to me like you are focused too much on comparing yourself to others. You're already in a better spot than 90% of the country. Change your study and testing habits - ask for advice on how to do so - and keep working hard. Everything will be okay!

Wrong.

[Wanderingdrock]

Take a deep breath. 50% of all law students have below median GPA, yet almost all will manage to find jobs. It sounds to me like you are focused too much on comparing yourself to others. You're already in a better spot than 90% of the country. Change your study and testing habits - ask for advice on how to do so - and keep working hard. Everything will be okay!

Wrong.

This feels like a riddle and I want to know the answer.

[existentialcrisis]

Take a deep breath. 50% of all law students have below median GPA, yet almost all will manage to find jobs. It sounds to me like you are focused too much on comparing yourself to others. You're already in a better spot than 90% of the country. Change your study and testing habits - ask for advice on how to do so - and keep working hard. Everything will be okay!

Wrong.

This feels like a riddle and I want to know the answer.

T-14 curves are lumpy and set up such that the majority of the students land around the 3.3 range.

[Wanderingdrock]

Take a deep breath. 50% of all law students have below median GPA, yet almost all will manage to find jobs. It sounds to me like you are focused too much on comparing yourself to others. You're already in a better spot than 90% of the country. Change your study and testing habits - ask for advice on how to do so - and keep working hard. Everything will be okay!

Wrong.

This feels like a riddle and I want to know the answer.

T-14 curves are lumpy and set up such that the majority of the students land around the 3.3 range.

Right, but wouldn't 50% of students still fall below the median? Median means the middle number. Lumpiness would explain how the mean isn't in the middle, not the median, which definitionally is. ...Unless I'm missing something? Hence my question.

[Anonymous User]

Take a deep breath. 50% of all law students have below median GPA, yet almost all will manage to find jobs. It sounds to me like you are focused too much on comparing yourself to others. You're already in a better spot than 90% of the country. Change your study and testing habits - ask for advice on how to do so - and keep working hard. Everything will be okay!

Wrong.

This feels like a riddle and I want to know the answer.

The answer is that the commenter doesn't know what "median" means. "50% of [X] are below median [X]" is a tautology.

[Anonymous User]

Take a deep breath. 50% of all law students have below median GPA, yet almost all will manage to find jobs. It sounds to me like you are focused too much on comparing yourself to others. You're already in a better spot than 90% of the country. Change your study and testing habits - ask for advice on how to do so - and keep working hard. Everything will be okay!

Wrong.

This feels like a riddle and I want to know the answer.

T-14 curves are lumpy and set up such that the majority of the students land around the 3.3 range.

Right, but wouldn't 50% of students still fall below the median? Median means the middle number. Lumpiness would explain how the mean isn't in the middle, not the median, which definitionally is. ...Unless I'm missing something? Hence my question.

Assume that grades are given out like this:
A A A- A- B+ B+ B+ B+ B+

Here, the median in this particular class would be a B+, and law schools will claim that their classes are curved to a B+ median. But if every class followed this curve, you would be below median if you got B+ in all of your classes.