Drop out? 3.0X Forum

[Anonymous User]

I think the point is more that the median can be such a large proportion of the class that less than 50% are below median. If the median GPA is 3.3 percent, but 50% of the class has a 3.3, then less than 50% will be below median.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

I think the point is more that the median can be such a large proportion of the class that less than 50% are below median. If the median GPA is 3.3 percent, but 50% of the class has a 3.3, then less than 50% will be below median.

Right. T14 schools design curves to obscure class rank and to present the maximum number of people as "around median." You might be 30th percentile in a given course and still get the median grade. Far fewer than 50% of folks are perceptibly / noticeably below median.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Take a deep breath. 50% of all law students have below median GPA, yet almost all will manage to find jobs. It sounds to me like you are focused too much on comparing yourself to others. You're already in a better spot than 90% of the country. Change your study and testing habits - ask for advice on how to do so - and keep working hard. Everything will be okay!

Wrong.

This feels like a riddle and I want to know the answer.

The answer is that the commenter doesn't know what "median" means. "50% of [X] are below median [X]" is a tautology.

"Tautology" sounded fancy and sophisticated, but here's a group of numbers: 3.0, 3.3, 3.3, 3.3, 3.3, 3.7, 3.9 ... are 50% below the median?

[Antetrust]

Take a deep breath. 50% of all law students have below median GPA, yet almost all will manage to find jobs. It sounds to me like you are focused too much on comparing yourself to others. You're already in a better spot than 90% of the country. Change your study and testing habits - ask for advice on how to do so - and keep working hard. Everything will be okay!

Wrong.

This feels like a riddle and I want to know the answer.

The answer is that the commenter doesn't know what "median" means. "50% of [X] are below median [X]" is a tautology.

"Tautology" sounded fancy and sophisticated, but here's a group of numbers: 3.0, 3.3, 3.3, 3.3, 3.3, 3.7, 3.9 ... are 50% below the median?

You are, of course, correct. But I'm not sure derailing the conversation to point out an inconsequential technicality was the right thing to do.

[Anonymous User]

I'm surprised no one mentioned this: OP, please schedule a meeting with your student services office. If you need anti-anxiety medications for your wellbeing, and you can get a medical professional to certify that, they may be able get you an exam accommodation for the spring, or else guide you towards classes with a paper option or take-home exam.

[Anonymous User]

I'm surprised no one mentioned this: OP, please schedule a meeting with your student services office. If you need anti-anxiety medications for your wellbeing, and you can get a medical professional to certify that, they may be able get you an exam accommodation for the spring, or else guide you towards classes with a paper option or take-home exam.

I have a friend who did much better in law school after getting an accommodation. Got significant extra time for tests. I never asked because I didn’t want to be rude, but doesn’t this mess with your self-confidence?

[nixy]

I'm surprised no one mentioned this: OP, please schedule a meeting with your student services office. If you need anti-anxiety medications for your wellbeing, and you can get a medical professional to certify that, they may be able get you an exam accommodation for the spring, or else guide you towards classes with a paper option or take-home exam.

I have a friend who did much better in law school after getting an accommodation. Got significant extra time for tests. I never asked because I didn’t want to be rude, but doesn’t this mess with your self-confidence?

Why would it mess with someone's self-confidence to get an accommodation that mitigates an obstacle that doesn't allow them to show their true ability? Especially if the alternative is doing badly.

[sparty99]

Who gives a f about big law, it sucks anyway. But do you want to be a lawyer? I think if you are already considering dropping out because you are at median is the bigger issue. You giving up so easily. I wonder if you will be able to handle the stress and hours of being a big law lawyer if you giving up so easily!! But $100k debt is not worth it, if you don't even want to be a lawyer. In that case, i would drop out. It's a high salary internship like some other dude said! The only thing that is fun is payday!

[Wanderingdrock]

Take a deep breath. 50% of all law students have below median GPA, yet almost all will manage to find jobs. It sounds to me like you are focused too much on comparing yourself to others. You're already in a better spot than 90% of the country. Change your study and testing habits - ask for advice on how to do so - and keep working hard. Everything will be okay!

Wrong.

This feels like a riddle and I want to know the answer.

T-14 curves are lumpy and set up such that the majority of the students land around the 3.3 range.

Right, but wouldn't 50% of students still fall below the median? Median means the middle number. Lumpiness would explain how the mean isn't in the middle, not the median, which definitionally is. ...Unless I'm missing something? Hence my question.

Assume that grades are given out like this:
A A A- A- B+ B+ B+ B+ B+

Here, the median in this particular class would be a B+, and law schools will claim that their classes are curved to a B+ median. But if every class followed this curve, you would be below median if you got B+ in all of your classes.

I suppose we could assume that, but I'd prefer we don't assume anything and look at the actual way that law schools calculate GPAs (the topic we're discussing), where a B+ is assigned a number for the purposes of calculating averages. In your example the GPA (grade point average, referring to a mean) would be a 3.54 and 5 of 9 students would have received grades below that average in this particular class. The median GPA of all the students in all the classes (meaning the middle score once you've calculated the exact grade point average of each student) would presumably fall somewhere in the 3.3-3.6 range, but you'll find that by definition half of the students have GPAs falling at or below that decimal score.

All this said, I did think that Res Ipsa had a joke or something he/she was ready with... Sorry to have reminded everybody why we're all lawyers and not something in STEM.

[Anonymous User]

Take a deep breath. 50% of all law students have below median GPA, yet almost all will manage to find jobs. It sounds to me like you are focused too much on comparing yourself to others. You're already in a better spot than 90% of the country. Change your study and testing habits - ask for advice on how to do so - and keep working hard. Everything will be okay!

Wrong.

This feels like a riddle and I want to know the answer.

T-14 curves are lumpy and set up such that the majority of the students land around the 3.3 range.

Right, but wouldn't 50% of students still fall below the median? Median means the middle number. Lumpiness would explain how the mean isn't in the middle, not the median, which definitionally is. ...Unless I'm missing something? Hence my question.

Assume that grades are given out like this:
A A A- A- B+ B+ B+ B+ B+

Here, the median in this particular class would be a B+, and law schools will claim that their classes are curved to a B+ median. But if every class followed this curve, you would be below median if you got B+ in all of your classes.

I suppose we could assume that, but I'd prefer we don't assume anything and look at the actual way that law schools calculate GPAs (the topic we're discussing), where a B+ is assigned a number for the purposes of calculating averages. In your example the GPA (grade point average, referring to a mean) would be a 3.54 and 5 of 9 students would have received grades below that average in this particular class. The median GPA of all the students in all the classes (meaning the middle score once you've calculated the exact grade point average of each student) would presumably fall somewhere in the 3.3-3.6 range, but you'll find that by definition half of the students have GPAs falling at or below that decimal score.

All this said, I did think that Res Ipsa had a joke or something he/she was ready with... Sorry to have reminded everybody why we're all lawyers and not something in STEM.

at or below is different than below. but yes, 50% of students have at or below median GPAs.

[jotarokujo]

i think the point is less than 50% are noticeably below median like OP is. considering the actual numerical median is different each year, employers don't know it to the hundredth decimal so it looks like less than 50% are below median in practical terms

[nealric]

One point I made above is that while OP probably isn't going suddently pull straight-As, that GPA isn't so low that they couldn't pull it up to that undifferentiated "middle of the class" GPA range. Getting A-/B+ grades 2nd semester would get you to the "more or less median" such that your grades will only count you out for the more selective firms.

There are GPAs that are so bad that dropping out due to grades may very well be a reasonable option, but I don't think anything above a 3.0 is that. There may of course be other reasons to drop out that have nothing to do with grades.

[Anonymous User]

I failed out of a respectable regional school. Post-bar, I hustled for three years doing Shitlaw, networked, worked out some personal stuff, and I have been at an AM50 for almost two years. I was lucky and had a great familial support network.

[Lacepiece23]

Are you taking out loans to fund law school? If so, how much?

Also make sure to review your exams with your professor just in case there is something super off with your exam writing that is an easy fix.

I am taking out loans. Hoping to keep the loans under $100k overall, but that figure is assuming I land an SA job. If I do not land one, then the amount I take out will be over $100k

That’s not bad at all. If you want to be a lawyer, you will make great money over the course of your career regardless of whether you get biglaw.

[nixy]

Are you taking out loans to fund law school? If so, how much?

Also make sure to review your exams with your professor just in case there is something super off with your exam writing that is an easy fix.

I am taking out loans. Hoping to keep the loans under $100k overall, but that figure is assuming I land an SA job. If I do not land one, then the amount I take out will be over $100k

That’s not bad at all. If you want to be a lawyer, you will make great money over the course of your career regardless of whether you get biglaw.

Maybe you *can* make great money. There are definitely lawyers out there who don’t make great money and it seems a little irresponsible to say everyone will.

[Lacepiece23]

Are you taking out loans to fund law school? If so, how much?

Also make sure to review your exams with your professor just in case there is something super off with your exam writing that is an easy fix.

I am taking out loans. Hoping to keep the loans under $100k overall, but that figure is assuming I land an SA job. If I do not land one, then the amount I take out will be over $100k

That’s not bad at all. If you want to be a lawyer, you will make great money over the course of your career regardless of whether you get biglaw.

Maybe you *can* make great money. There are definitely lawyers out there who don’t make great money and it seems a little irresponsible to say everyone will.

I mean I didn’t mean literally everyone will. Just like literally everyone with any professional degree, including M.D., isn’t guaranteed anything.

Now that I’m like a decade out and seeing what all my friends are doing that didn’t get biglaw, I have no reason to believe the OP will not have a successful career.

In fact, a lot of people that didn’t get biglaw are doing better than those that did at this point.

[nealric]

Are you taking out loans to fund law school? If so, how much?

Also make sure to review your exams with your professor just in case there is something super off with your exam writing that is an easy fix.

I am taking out loans. Hoping to keep the loans under $100k overall, but that figure is assuming I land an SA job. If I do not land one, then the amount I take out will be over $100k

That’s not bad at all. If you want to be a lawyer, you will make great money over the course of your career regardless of whether you get biglaw.

Maybe you *can* make great money. There are definitely lawyers out there who don’t make great money and it seems a little irresponsible to say everyone will.

Absolutely true, but almost everyone I know with a T20 law background that doesn't make decent money ($100k+) is doing it by choice (i.e. public interest work or stay at home parent). And I graduated in the great recession cohort where a lot of people spent years unemployed or underemployed. That said, I know a couple who dropped out of law, but they do well in their chosen fields. Top schools tend to attract bright and motivated people who can make more than one career path work for them.

Not to say everyone at a T20 is brilliant, but the academic baseline is pretty high relative to the broader job market. And for the record, I'm not saying that attending a lower-ranked school means you aren't bright and motivated- it's just that the bar for ending up a T20 is high enough to filter out most of the folks who aren't.

[nixy]

Are you taking out loans to fund law school? If so, how much?

Also make sure to review your exams with your professor just in case there is something super off with your exam writing that is an easy fix.

I am taking out loans. Hoping to keep the loans under $100k overall, but that figure is assuming I land an SA job. If I do not land one, then the amount I take out will be over $100k

That’s not bad at all. If you want to be a lawyer, you will make great money over the course of your career regardless of whether you get biglaw.

Maybe you *can* make great money. There are definitely lawyers out there who don’t make great money and it seems a little irresponsible to say everyone will.

Absolutely true, but almost everyone I know with a T20 law background that doesn't make decent money ($100k+) is doing it by choice (i.e. public interest work or stay at home parent). And I graduated in the great recession cohort where a lot of people spent years unemployed or underemployed. That said, I know a couple who dropped out of law, but they do well in their chosen fields. Top schools tend to attract bright and motivated people who can make more than one career path work for them.

Not to say everyone at a T20 is brilliant, but the academic baseline is pretty high relative to the broader job market. And for the record, I'm not saying that attending a lower-ranked school means you aren't bright and motivated- it's just that the bar for ending up a T20 is high enough to filter out most of the folks who aren't.

Not making decent money by choice is still not making decent money. I agree the OP will likely be fine but people have spent so many years trying to counteract the popular perception that a JD is a ticket to models and bottles, it just seems counterproductive to tell any given poster that they *will* make decent money.

[nealric]

Are you taking out loans to fund law school? If so, how much?

Also make sure to review your exams with your professor just in case there is something super off with your exam writing that is an easy fix.

I am taking out loans. Hoping to keep the loans under $100k overall, but that figure is assuming I land an SA job. If I do not land one, then the amount I take out will be over $100k

That’s not bad at all. If you want to be a lawyer, you will make great money over the course of your career regardless of whether you get biglaw.

Maybe you *can* make great money. There are definitely lawyers out there who don’t make great money and it seems a little irresponsible to say everyone will.

Absolutely true, but almost everyone I know with a T20 law background that doesn't make decent money ($100k+) is doing it by choice (i.e. public interest work or stay at home parent). And I graduated in the great recession cohort where a lot of people spent years unemployed or underemployed. That said, I know a couple who dropped out of law, but they do well in their chosen fields. Top schools tend to attract bright and motivated people who can make more than one career path work for them.

Not to say everyone at a T20 is brilliant, but the academic baseline is pretty high relative to the broader job market. And for the record, I'm not saying that attending a lower-ranked school means you aren't bright and motivated- it's just that the bar for ending up a T20 is high enough to filter out most of the folks who aren't.

Not making decent money by choice is still not making decent money. I agree the OP will likely be fine but people have spent so many years trying to counteract the popular perception that a JD is a ticket to models and bottles, it just seems counterproductive to tell any given poster that they *will* make decent money.

I think most folks at a T14 know that even getting biglaw is far from "models and bottles" (especially with a full debt load). We are talking about a salary supporting a middle to upper middle-class lifestyle allowing someone to support a family in comfort without significant financial strain. But the people I have in mind who chose public interest left biglaw for it, so they weren't (as the OP feared) shut out from more remunerative employment options.

[GFox345]

Take a deep breath. 50% of all law students have below median GPA, yet almost all will manage to find jobs. It sounds to me like you are focused too much on comparing yourself to others. You're already in a better spot than 90% of the country. Change your study and testing habits - ask for advice on how to do so - and keep working hard. Everything will be okay!

Wrong.

This feels like a riddle and I want to know the answer.

The answer is that the commenter doesn't know what "median" means. "50% of [X] are below median [X]" is a tautology.

"Tautology" sounded fancy and sophisticated, but here's a group of numbers: 3.0, 3.3, 3.3, 3.3, 3.3, 3.7, 3.9 ... are 50% below the median?

Lawyers are so bad at math, dude. Holy shit.