BigLaw longevity in NYC Finance? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Assuming you never build up a book and make real partner, how possible is it to just continue in perpetuity as a senior in NYC finance biglaw (as a counsel, NEP, etc.)? Can you just bounce from firm to firm as needed for a couple decades?

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Perma-counseling is a thing these days across most practice groups in most major areas. At many firms, someone who is well liked and hits their hours could do it forever without ever bringing in a client.

[Anonymous User]

Perma-counseling is a thing these days across most practice groups in most major areas. At many firms, someone who is well liked and hits their hours could do it forever without ever bringing in a client.

Adjacent question, but how does this (and just generally, partnership) look at firms with heavily institutionalized client bases, where it seems like there is more relationship maintenance than client development

[Sackboy]

Perma-counseling is a thing these days across most practice groups in most major areas. At many firms, someone who is well liked and hits their hours could do it forever without ever bringing in a client.

Adjacent question, but how does this (and just generally, partnership) look at firms with heavily institutionalized client bases, where it seems like there is more relationship maintenance than client development

Nobody is bringing in clients to make equity partner at a V10. You're making yourself indispensable to one or more institutional clients, and their work with the firm continues to grow to the point where it can make sense to elevate you to equity.

[Anonymous User]

Perma-counseling is a thing these days across most practice groups in most major areas. At many firms, someone who is well liked and hits their hours could do it forever without ever bringing in a client.

Is perma-counseling a good gig from a financial standpoint, or would you be better off taking equity in a company as in-house?

[LittleRedCorvette]

Perma-counseling is a thing these days across most practice groups in most major areas. At many firms, someone who is well liked and hits their hours could do it forever without ever bringing in a client.

Is perma-counseling a good gig from a financial standpoint, or would you be better off taking equity in a company as in-house?

Pretty hard to answer this question. Perma-counsel is making ~600k (or maybe more) a year forever, which is pretty sweet. Equity could be worthless in-house or could make you a multi-millionaire.

[Anonymous User]

Perma-counseling is a thing these days across most practice groups in most major areas. At many firms, someone who is well liked and hits their hours could do it forever without ever bringing in a client.

Is perma-counseling a good gig from a financial standpoint, or would you be better off taking equity in a company as in-house?

Pretty hard to answer this question. Perma-counsel is making ~600k (or maybe more) a year forever, which is pretty sweet. Equity could be worthless in-house or could make you a multi-millionaire.

Most permacounsel don't consider their job "sweet". They are grinding out 2k hours a year of boring legal work effectively as employees of people in their class year (or younger), who are making 2-10x+ comp. It's a pretty sad default job you end up with if you can't get promoted to (or are unwilling/unable to handle the lifestyle demands of) making partner, but are too risk averse to leave the law firm world and give up your guaranteed $500k/year.

It's difficult to compare to in-house because a lot of permacounsel don't have the personality fit for the high risk/reward in-house gigs, and if they went in-house would end up in some bank or large corporate gig that feels a lot like being in a law firm.

Basically, from what I see, the people who end up as permacounsel are there because they don't have anything better to do, not because they see it as a particularly exciting job.

[Anonymous User]

That’s such a pessimistic view. Earning $600k a year is a top 1% salary in the US, let alone globally, and up there with what many medical specialists are paid.

A lot of the downsides you provide are egocentric, like who cares what someone else is earning…even if you’re a partner at Wachtell, you can always find executives who out-earn you many times over. Do NFL players refuse to ply their craft because a teammate is earning much more?

Also, a lot of counsel have reduced hour requirements to allow them to complete business development (but with large bonus kickers if they hit high billable targets).

Counsel roles are also often (not always) lower pressure, especially at V50 firms with higher leverage ratios where partners are supervising multiple matters being run by a number of associates. I’m a senior associate and my life is pretty chill, whereas I know ppl who got made up are having a rough time of it.

[Anonymous User]

If you’re a perma counsel and get laid off/pushed out at some point, are you dead in the water? Or is it easy enough to hop over to some other firm as a perma counsel?

I’d be worried you’d be too senior to do that, since getting a perma counsel gig at one firm is so heavily based on your internal reputation (which isn’t really portable to other firms). But maybe that’s a misunderstanding

[Anonymous User]

So long as you’re decent at your job (which at counsel level you should be), (1) you’re unlikely to be let go and (2) there will always be someone in biglaw who can benefit from your expertise.

[Anonymous User]

Double post.

[fire_ice]

Perma-counseling is a thing these days across most practice groups in most major areas. At many firms, someone who is well liked and hits their hours could do it forever without ever bringing in a client.

Is perma-counseling a good gig from a financial standpoint, or would you be better off taking equity in a company as in-house?

Pretty hard to answer this question. Perma-counsel is making ~600k (or maybe more) a year forever, which is pretty sweet. Equity could be worthless in-house or could make you a multi-millionaire.

Most permacounsel don't consider their job "sweet". They are grinding out 2k hours a year of boring legal work effectively as employees of people in their class year (or younger), who are making 2-10x+ comp. It's a pretty sad default job you end up with if you can't get promoted to (or are unwilling/unable to handle the lifestyle demands of) making partner, but are too risk averse to leave the law firm world and give up your guaranteed $500k/year.

It's difficult to compare to in-house because a lot of permacounsel don't have the personality fit for the high risk/reward in-house gigs, and if they went in-house would end up in some bank or large corporate gig that feels a lot like being in a law firm.

Basically, from what I see, the people who end up as permacounsel are there because they don't have anything better to do, not because they see it as a particularly exciting job.

Bro why is it sad when another alternative is you get pushed out/let go. Also why did you pick legal career if you are looking for high risk/reward gig?

[Anonymous User]

Perma-counseling is a thing these days across most practice groups in most major areas. At many firms, someone who is well liked and hits their hours could do it forever without ever bringing in a client.

Is perma-counseling a good gig from a financial standpoint, or would you be better off taking equity in a company as in-house?

Pretty hard to answer this question. Perma-counsel is making ~600k (or maybe more) a year forever, which is pretty sweet. Equity could be worthless in-house or could make you a multi-millionaire.

Most permacounsel don't consider their job "sweet". They are grinding out 2k hours a year of boring legal work effectively as employees of people in their class year (or younger), who are making 2-10x+ comp. It's a pretty sad default job you end up with if you can't get promoted to (or are unwilling/unable to handle the lifestyle demands of) making partner, but are too risk averse to leave the law firm world and give up your guaranteed $500k/year.

It's difficult to compare to in-house because a lot of permacounsel don't have the personality fit for the high risk/reward in-house gigs, and if they went in-house would end up in some bank or large corporate gig that feels a lot like being in a law firm.

Basically, from what I see, the people who end up as permacounsel are there because they don't have anything better to do, not because they see it as a particularly exciting job.

There are many many people who would consider making 600k a year forever an incredible, life changing position to be in, and they would certainly not describe it as a "a sad a default job." Also, I can't imagine many permacounsel would say they don't want to leave because they have nothing better to do; they may just be risk-averse and comfortable making half a million dollars annually.

[Anonymous User]

$600k isn’t very much in high cost areas, which is likely where you’ll be as a permacounsel—especially if you have a family. You’re also treated as a workhorse for someone making at least 3x more than you (and possibly younger than you). Why not become a partner and make that 3x yourself (or get on the path towards it). You’ll be working just as much. I’m at this crossroad myself at the moment.

[Moneytrees]

$600k isn’t very much in high cost areas, which is likely where you’ll be as a permacounsel—especially if you have a family. You’re also treated as a workhorse for someone making at least 3x more than you (and possibly younger than you). Why not become a partner and make that 3x yourself (or get on the path towards it). You’ll be working just as much. I’m at this crossroad myself at the moment.

I don't think counsels work nearly as hard as partners, on average. Not having BD responsibilities is a big deal. They also don't make substantially less than NEPs.

[Anonymous User]

$600k isn’t very much in high cost areas, which is likely where you’ll be as a permacounsel—especially if you have a family. You’re also treated as a workhorse for someone making at least 3x more than you (and possibly younger than you). Why not become a partner and make that 3x yourself (or get on the path towards it). You’ll be working just as much. I’m at this crossroad myself at the moment.

I appreciate where this thinking comes from, but it also reveals a loss of perspective. There are equity partners out there with the same mindset. I know we all work hard, but so do top tier lawyers in a lot of countries where the financial benefits are significantly less (think Canada and Australia, let alone Brazil or Mexico).

[Anonymous User]

$600k isn’t very much in high cost areas, which is likely where you’ll be as a permacounsel—especially if you have a family. You’re also treated as a workhorse for someone making at least 3x more than you (and possibly younger than you). Why not become a partner and make that 3x yourself (or get on the path towards it). You’ll be working just as much. I’m at this crossroad myself at the moment.

I appreciate where this thinking comes from, but it also reveals a loss of perspective. There are equity partners out there with the same mindset. I know we all work hard, but so do top tier lawyers in a lot of countries where the financial benefits are significantly less (think Canada and Australia, let alone Brazil or Mexico).

The larger loss of perspective is thinking a 600k salary isnt very much regardless of where you live.

[Anonymous User]

$600k isn’t very much in high cost areas, which is likely where you’ll be as a permacounsel—especially if you have a family. You’re also treated as a workhorse for someone making at least 3x more than you (and possibly younger than you). Why not become a partner and make that 3x yourself (or get on the path towards it). You’ll be working just as much. I’m at this crossroad myself at the moment.

600k isn't very much in high cost areas? 600k in the NY-NJ metro area is MORE than enough to raise a family on. You'll be comfortable and able to provide on that salary. I'm honestly a bit stunned.

[Anonymous User]

No need to pile on. You just have a different perspective.

I need to pay $2.5m where I live and work for what amounts to a regular house in a good school district. Nothing fancy—just something a two-engineer household would typically have. At my base salary, I take home about $20k a month, pay $6k for rent, $2k for preschool, $2k for car payments (I need to drive here), $6k or so of general living expenses including utilities. That leaves $4k discretionary per month / savings. Year end bonus helps too.

You’re right, it’s a privilege to make this much, but it’s not like I’m rolling in it—especially where I’m at. And kids only get more expensive as they grow—special needs, sports etc.

Counsel in my practice area (levfin) generally work as hard as partners. Sorry if you disagree. No levfin counsel aims to stay a counsel… unless you’re at Cahill making a mil starting.

[Anonymous User]

No need to pile on. You just have a different perspective.

I need to pay $2.5m where I live and work for what amounts to a regular house in a good school district. Nothing fancy—just something a two-engineer household would typically have. At my base salary, I take home about $20k a month, pay $6k for rent, $2k for preschool, $2k for car payments (I need to drive here), $6k or so of general living expenses including utilities. That leaves $4k discretionary per month / savings. Year end bonus helps too.

You’re right, it’s a privilege to make this much, but it’s not like I’m rolling in it—especially where I’m at. And kids only get more expensive as they grow—special needs, sports etc.

Counsel in my practice area (levfin) generally work as hard as partners. Sorry if you disagree. No levfin counsel aims to stay a counsel… unless you’re at Cahill making a mil starting.

No intention to pile on. I get it, levfin sucks on many levels, and the money doesn’t begin to make up for it. I moved from levfin into another area of B&F at a market paying firm and my life is much better. No commitment papers (or the threat of them) on weekends anymore. So there’s a potential avenue that may be worth exploring.

Purely from a financial perspective, however, it’s worth acknowledging the vast majority of Americans make do on much less.

I’m a seventh year and my fortnightly take-home income is just under $12k. I max out my 401k and have my wife and children on my health plan. I don’t know if the pay discrepancy is because of tax differences, but it may be something to look into.

I also live in a LCOL city and pay $2k to rent a two bedroom apartment in a nice neighborhood. I’m pretty sure pre-K is free here if you attend the local elementary school (you mentioned you are zoned to a good district). My wife and I share a car that we bought outright in cash for $30k.

I’m not saying our lifestyle is for everyone, and you might want to enjoy the spoils of your hard work, but my poInt is $600k is a lot of money, and if it feels like it’s not very much, that’s often the result of consumption choices we make (even if it feels as though those choices are necessary).