Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts? Forum

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Lawman1865

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Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Lawman1865 » Thu Nov 17, 2022 12:48 pm

I think we can agree the US news rankings have major flaws, which have been understood for years now, but I think it's funny how, with respect to Harvard, it comes during a year where they have dropped from their usual place.

Thoughts on their reasoning? Seems doubtful other schools will join. I think it's also obvious to note that Yale and Harvard are probably the most able to do away with rankings given their natural "prestige" in the law/employment/academic world.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/16/us/y ... kings.html
https://www.yahoo.com/news/yale-law-sch ... 33460.html

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by jotarokujo » Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:07 pm

harvard benefits the most from this move because their US news ranking is probably lower than their perceived prestige (both by lay people and by some people in the industry)

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Res Ipsa Loquitter » Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:14 pm

They want to increase diversity by deemphasizing the LSAT and GPA. They also don’t want to disclose any financial information beyond what the ABA 509 requires.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:20 pm

I understand the reasoning and sympathize with the desire to prioritize things like public service support that are not well accounted for in the rankings. More schools will certainly follow. But I worry the collapse of rankings will leave a lot less information for first gen applicants to decipher schools' reputation among lawyers when they don't personally know any. Rankings aren't useful on the granular level of going to the 32nd ranked school instead of 33rd, but they are invaluable in helping low-information applicants differentiate between solid top 50 schools and fraudulent debt traps, which all seem pretty much the same based on their brochures and such.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Lacepiece23 » Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:44 pm

So is it no longer HYS? just S?

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:20 pm
I understand the reasoning and sympathize with the desire to prioritize things like public service support that are not well accounted for in the rankings. More schools will certainly follow. But I worry the collapse of rankings will leave a lot less information for first gen applicants to decipher schools' reputation among lawyers when they don't personally know any. Rankings aren't useful on the granular level of going to the 32nd ranked school instead of 33rd, but they are invaluable in helping low-information applicants differentiate between solid top 50 schools and fraudulent debt traps, which all seem pretty much the same based on their brochures and such.
Agree with this. As much as it is stupid that someone might pick the number 28 school on the other side of the country instead of the number 40 school in their state, it is important to have basic information about schools. I was the first lawyer in my family and grew up lower middle class in Chicago area. If it weren't for rankings and information, I probably would have ended up going to John Marshall during great recession for little to no scholarship. I think it is important to get away from obsession over LSAT and GPA and insure more diverse students (racially and economically) get scholarships. But it is equally important that information about schools gets to all potential applicants.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Giro423 » Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:20 pm
I understand the reasoning and sympathize with the desire to prioritize things like public service support that are not well accounted for in the rankings. More schools will certainly follow. But I worry the collapse of rankings will leave a lot less information for first gen applicants to decipher schools' reputation among lawyers when they don't personally know any. Rankings aren't useful on the granular level of going to the 32nd ranked school instead of 33rd, but they are invaluable in helping low-information applicants differentiate between solid top 50 schools and fraudulent debt traps, which all seem pretty much the same based on their brochures and such.
Seconded. Maybe eventually ATL’s rankings will gain more traction.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:48 pm

Berkeley is pulling out as well

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:30 pm

So YLS realized they would officially fall behind SLS this year and threw a hissy fit, and HLS took the opportunity to thumb their nose at USNWR for putting them below Chicago? LMFAO what crybabies.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:30 pm
So YLS realized they would officially fall behind SLS this year and threw a hissy fit, and HLS took the opportunity to thumb their nose at USNWR for putting them below Chicago? LMFAO what crybabies.
What evidence does anyone have for the proposition that Yale "would officially fall behind" Stanford this year? Virtually everyone regards Yale as better than Stanford. Just look at the stark difference between each school's yield on admitted students.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by goldenflash19 » Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:30 pm
So YLS realized they would officially fall behind SLS this year and threw a hissy fit, and HLS took the opportunity to thumb their nose at USNWR for putting them below Chicago? LMFAO what crybabies.
What evidence does anyone have for the proposition that Yale "would officially fall behind" Stanford this year? Virtually everyone regards Yale as better than Stanford. Just look at the stark difference between each school's yield on admitted students.
Agreed that Y is regarded better, but one note on yield is that the majority of the country lives in the East and many people don’t want to leave the East Coast/proximity to NYC/DC. I think H has a higher yield than S, but S is much more difficult to get into.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:30 pm
So YLS realized they would officially fall behind SLS this year and threw a hissy fit, and HLS took the opportunity to thumb their nose at USNWR for putting them below Chicago? LMFAO what crybabies.
What evidence does anyone have for the proposition that Yale "would officially fall behind" Stanford this year? Virtually everyone regards Yale as better than Stanford. Just look at the stark difference between each school's yield on admitted students.
That's the rumor I've seen on a few sites (reddit and fishbowl most notably). It makes sense tho--SLS has been nipping at YLS' heels for a while (like Chicago was with HLS) and its been clear that it was pretty likely to catch up. Granted, this might be regional (I'm in CA).

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:11 pm

goldenflash19 wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:37 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:30 pm
So YLS realized they would officially fall behind SLS this year and threw a hissy fit, and HLS took the opportunity to thumb their nose at USNWR for putting them below Chicago? LMFAO what crybabies.
What evidence does anyone have for the proposition that Yale "would officially fall behind" Stanford this year? Virtually everyone regards Yale as better than Stanford. Just look at the stark difference between each school's yield on admitted students.
Agreed that Y is regarded better, but one note on yield is that the majority of the country lives in the East and many people don’t want to leave the East Coast/proximity to NYC/DC. I think H has a higher yield than S, but S is much more difficult to get into.
It is not true that the majority of the country (or anywhere near it) live in the Northeast. But the Ivies are there and provide most of YLS’s class.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:30 pm
So YLS realized they would officially fall behind SLS this year and threw a hissy fit, and HLS took the opportunity to thumb their nose at USNWR for putting them below Chicago? LMFAO what crybabies.
What evidence does anyone have for the proposition that Yale "would officially fall behind" Stanford this year? Virtually everyone regards Yale as better than Stanford. Just look at the stark difference between each school's yield on admitted students.
YLS’s “peer reputation” score fell a lot last year and likely would have fallen again this year given the issues there

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Buglaw » Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:16 pm

Higher education HATES accountability to anyone or anything. The fact that there was some sort of objective measure (regardless of how flawed) is always going to be unbearable to them. Hard to imagine that no accountability to anything and lessened competition will improve as schools.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by 12YrsAnAssociate » Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:17 pm

Does this mean that Harvard and Yale aren't going to be listed at all? Or that US News will put Harvard and Yale in based on its guess on where the schools would fit in.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:13 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:30 pm
So YLS realized they would officially fall behind SLS this year and threw a hissy fit, and HLS took the opportunity to thumb their nose at USNWR for putting them below Chicago? LMFAO what crybabies.
What evidence does anyone have for the proposition that Yale "would officially fall behind" Stanford this year? Virtually everyone regards Yale as better than Stanford. Just look at the stark difference between each school's yield on admitted students.
YLS’s “peer reputation” score fell a lot last year and likely would have fallen again this year given the issues there
I don't know if SLS would have passed YLS this year, but it was coming. In addition to hits to YLS's reputation score, SLS has gotten significant infusions of tech money bridging the expenditure/student gap. At this point, the two main factors propping up YLS's continued prominence are its academic placements and its SCOTUS clerkship rate. The former may persist, campus culture issues notwithstanding. The latter has already begun to slide with the rise of Chicago and the replacement of older justices on SCOTUS who often hired from YLS (like RBG) with younger ones who do not (like ACB).

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by CLS2023A » Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:31 pm

12YrsAnAssociate wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:17 pm
Does this mean that Harvard and Yale aren't going to be listed at all? Or that US News will put Harvard and Yale in based on its guess on where the schools would fit in.
I believe US News will still rank these schools, but it would have to rely on external sources for the information it uses in its various criteria. I am not sure if these schools' rankings will be affected with the use of external information though.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Giro423 » Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:59 pm

12YrsAnAssociate wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:17 pm
Does this mean that Harvard and Yale aren't going to be listed at all? Or that US News will put Harvard and Yale in based on its guess on where the schools would fit in.
They will still be in but now US News can use whatever criteria they want to rank them and they will both get put right below Georgetown as a punishment. Then they will come screaming back next year stating how amazing it is that US News listened to their concerns and now ranks schools solely based on how many URMs take public service jobs. Scalia will then rise from the dead out of rage and start the second coming of Christ.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:13 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:30 pm
So YLS realized they would officially fall behind SLS this year and threw a hissy fit, and HLS took the opportunity to thumb their nose at USNWR for putting them below Chicago? LMFAO what crybabies.
What evidence does anyone have for the proposition that Yale "would officially fall behind" Stanford this year? Virtually everyone regards Yale as better than Stanford. Just look at the stark difference between each school's yield on admitted students.
YLS’s “peer reputation” score fell a lot last year and likely would have fallen again this year given the issues there
I don't know if SLS would have passed YLS this year, but it was coming. In addition to hits to YLS's reputation score, SLS has gotten significant infusions of tech money bridging the expenditure/student gap. At this point, the two main factors propping up YLS's continued prominence are its academic placements and its SCOTUS clerkship rate. The former may persist, campus culture issues notwithstanding. The latter has already begun to slide with the rise of Chicago and the replacement of older justices on SCOTUS who often hired from YLS (like RBG) with younger ones who do not (like ACB).
Funny you named the only Justice who didn't go to Yale or Harvard. Give me a break. Yale will continue to dominate the Supreme Court clerkship process, particularly on a per capita basis (Yale sent 12 to the court in the most recent hiring process, while Harvard sent 8 and Stanford 7; and for the 5 years prior to that, Yale sent 57 and the next highest was Harvard with 38). And if you're thinking a "boycott" by nut jobs like Ho and Branch will carry over to the Supreme Court, you're nuts. Stanford was never passing Yale in the rankings. People have been predicting a drop from Yale for years yet it has remained number one in the rankings for all 30+ years the rankings have existed.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Nov 18, 2022 1:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:59 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:13 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:30 pm
So YLS realized they would officially fall behind SLS this year and threw a hissy fit, and HLS took the opportunity to thumb their nose at USNWR for putting them below Chicago? LMFAO what crybabies.
What evidence does anyone have for the proposition that Yale "would officially fall behind" Stanford this year? Virtually everyone regards Yale as better than Stanford. Just look at the stark difference between each school's yield on admitted students.
YLS’s “peer reputation” score fell a lot last year and likely would have fallen again this year given the issues there
I don't know if SLS would have passed YLS this year, but it was coming. In addition to hits to YLS's reputation score, SLS has gotten significant infusions of tech money bridging the expenditure/student gap. At this point, the two main factors propping up YLS's continued prominence are its academic placements and its SCOTUS clerkship rate. The former may persist, campus culture issues notwithstanding. The latter has already begun to slide with the rise of Chicago and the replacement of older justices on SCOTUS who often hired from YLS (like RBG) with younger ones who do not (like ACB).
Funny you named the only Justice who didn't go to Yale or Harvard. Give me a break. Yale will continue to dominate the Supreme Court clerkship process, particularly on a per capita basis (Yale sent 12 to the court in the most recent hiring process, while Harvard sent 8 and Stanford 7; and for the 5 years prior to that, Yale sent 57 and the next highest was Harvard with 38). And if you're thinking a "boycott" by nut jobs like Ho and Branch will carry over to the Supreme Court, you're nuts. Stanford was never passing Yale in the rankings. People have been predicting a drop from Yale for years yet it has remained number one in the rankings for all 30+ years the rankings have existed.
Its raw scores were dipping. Go back and check the numbers if you don't believe me. SCOTUS clerkships are a lagging indicator - YLS will do fine for the foreseeable future, but the changes of personnel haven't been favorable for it. RBG hired many YLS clerks, ACB has hired zero. Breyer hired many YLS clerks, we'll have to see what KBJ does (but there are zero in her first class). Alito hires many YLS clerks, when he steps down we'll see who replaces him. YLS has a very weak conservative faculty. Don't be surprised if Chicago continues to gain on it.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:14 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:59 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:13 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:30 pm
So YLS realized they would officially fall behind SLS this year and threw a hissy fit, and HLS took the opportunity to thumb their nose at USNWR for putting them below Chicago? LMFAO what crybabies.
What evidence does anyone have for the proposition that Yale "would officially fall behind" Stanford this year? Virtually everyone regards Yale as better than Stanford. Just look at the stark difference between each school's yield on admitted students.
YLS’s “peer reputation” score fell a lot last year and likely would have fallen again this year given the issues there
I don't know if SLS would have passed YLS this year, but it was coming. In addition to hits to YLS's reputation score, SLS has gotten significant infusions of tech money bridging the expenditure/student gap. At this point, the two main factors propping up YLS's continued prominence are its academic placements and its SCOTUS clerkship rate. The former may persist, campus culture issues notwithstanding. The latter has already begun to slide with the rise of Chicago and the replacement of older justices on SCOTUS who often hired from YLS (like RBG) with younger ones who do not (like ACB).
Funny you named the only Justice who didn't go to Yale or Harvard. Give me a break. Yale will continue to dominate the Supreme Court clerkship process, particularly on a per capita basis (Yale sent 12 to the court in the most recent hiring process, while Harvard sent 8 and Stanford 7; and for the 5 years prior to that, Yale sent 57 and the next highest was Harvard with 38). And if you're thinking a "boycott" by nut jobs like Ho and Branch will carry over to the Supreme Court, you're nuts. Stanford was never passing Yale in the rankings. People have been predicting a drop from Yale for years yet it has remained number one in the rankings for all 30+ years the rankings have existed.
Based on the current climate, I would not be surprised if certain justices will be happy to put YLS in a doghouse for SCOTUS seats. May not matter this year, but next would have an immediate impact, and that would trickle down to the circuits.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:45 am

Plenty of people who regard Yale as the top law school won’t change their opinion based on what conservative justices do, though.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Nov 18, 2022 11:17 am

I think the rankings are bad, but what would be useful for students are groupings of schools by certain characteristics just to help them make an informed choice. The idea of meaningfully distinguishing like #11 from #12 is ludicrous, but there are actually real differences between certain types of schools. This would sort of, but not perfectly, correspond to rankings.

Offhand, I think the groups would look something like:

National, private law schools that send high %s to biglaw and federal clerkships/bigfed,
Flagship public law schools that send high %s to biglaw and federal clerkships/bigfed,
National, private law schools with smaller class sizes and higher %s in academic, clerkships, and elite PI,
Regional public schools,
Predatory/for-profit/very low employment numbers schools.

The first two categories are functionally the same from the students' perspective but might have differences in debt load, etc. Doing this would also sort of cut down on the "lay prestige" factor. So like:

Harvard/Columbia/NYU/Penn/Duke/Vanderbilt/Cornell/GULC,
Michigan/UVA/UT-Austin/Berkeley/UCLA/WUSTL/UF,
Yale/Stanford/Chicago,
Every other perfectly good regional public school in the country,
Actively shitty schools that no one should attend.

The goal would basically be to give people helpful information about how the schools are different, but cut down on the "I'm #4 and you're #5, get fucked" factor

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Nov 18, 2022 11:31 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:45 am
Plenty of people who regard Yale as the top law school won’t change their opinion based on what conservative justices do, though.
Ho and Branch are just jealous because they didn't get into Yale (probably). Why bother publicly announcing that you're "boycotting" hiring from a school unless the school already lives rent-free in your head and you have some bizarre chip on your shoulder about it?

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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