KH v. Susman (NY) Forum

[Anonymous User]

Going to avoid giving any details to avoid outing myself, but let's just say that I am considering a lateral from one firm to another as a junior associate. Does anyone have any intel on these firms -- e.g., hours, general culture, type of work that they do, etc?

[Anonymous User]

Going to avoid giving any details to avoid outing myself, but let's just say that I am considering a lateral from one firm to another as a junior associate. Does anyone have any intel on these firms -- e.g., hours, general culture, type of work that they do, etc?

Here's intel on Susman: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=304571

Here's some info on KH: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=251208&p=8891279&h ... g#p8891279

[Anonymous User]

There's not much information on KH there -- or really anywhere on this Board at all. Would love additional.

[Anonymous User]

There's not much information on KH there -- or really anywhere on this Board at all. Would love additional.

What do you want to know?

[Anonymous User]

There's not much information on KH there -- or really anywhere on this Board at all. Would love additional.

What do you want to know?

Hours, general culture, experiences / recommendation from those who have worked there?

[Anonymous User]

There's not much information on KH there -- or really anywhere on this Board at all. Would love additional.

What do you want to know?

Hours, general culture, experiences / recommendation from those who have worked there?

2700-3000 hours common, closed door culture with very limited "collegiality," (people go into office, close door, and then leave at EOD), it's good pay and good experience but you work for it.

[Anonymous User]

Same to be expected out of Susman?

[Anonymous User]

There's not much information on KH there -- or really anywhere on this Board at all. Would love additional.

What do you want to know?

Hours, general culture, experiences / recommendation from those who have worked there?

2700-3000 hours common, closed door culture with very limited "collegiality," (people go into office, close door, and then leave at EOD), it's good pay and good experience but you work for it.

But then why go into the office? Or it's just personal preference?

[Anonymous User]

There's not much information on KH there -- or really anywhere on this Board at all. Would love additional.

What do you want to know?

Hours, general culture, experiences / recommendation from those who have worked there?

2700-3000 hours common, closed door culture with very limited "collegiality," (people go into office, close door, and then leave at EOD), it's good pay and good experience but you work for it.

But then why go into the office? Or it's just personal preference?

anecdote from friend but seems like not a ton of leniency on WFH.

[Anonymous User]

I’ve heard primarily negative things about KH’s culture from friends who summered there, and none went back despite the crazy bonuses, which seems like pretty strong revealed preference. But I’m just one person with one network and ymmv.

[Anonymous User]

Same to be expected out of Susman?

SG associate here. Similar hours expectation (median usually hovers around 2600-2700), but very different on the collegiality--the firm is quite social both in and out of the office.

Given OPs comment about being a lateral candidate, worth noting that SG almost universally does not hire laterals. There are of course exceptions, but they are few and far between.

[Anonymous User]

Same to be expected out of Susman?

SG associate here. Similar hours expectation (median usually hovers around 2600-2700), but very different on the collegiality--the firm is quite social both in and out of the office.

Given OPs comment about being a lateral candidate, worth noting that SG almost universally does not hire laterals. There are of course exceptions, but they are few and far between.

I'm not sure I understand, in light of this thread, what really the draw is of KH.

[Anonymous User]

Same to be expected out of Susman?

SG associate here. Similar hours expectation (median usually hovers around 2600-2700), but very different on the collegiality--the firm is quite social both in and out of the office.

Given OPs comment about being a lateral candidate, worth noting that SG almost universally does not hire laterals. There are of course exceptions, but they are few and far between.

I'm not sure I understand, in light of this thread, what really the draw is of KH.

More prestige, money, and substantive experience than the typical biglaw shop

[Anonymous User]

Same to be expected out of Susman?

SG associate here. Similar hours expectation (median usually hovers around 2600-2700), but very different on the collegiality--the firm is quite social both in and out of the office.

Given OPs comment about being a lateral candidate, worth noting that SG almost universally does not hire laterals. There are of course exceptions, but they are few and far between.

I'm not sure I understand, in light of this thread, what really the draw is of KH.

More prestige, money, and substantive experience than the typical biglaw shop

As compared to SG, I mean.

[Anonymous User]

Same to be expected out of Susman?

SG associate here. Similar hours expectation (median usually hovers around 2600-2700), but very different on the collegiality--the firm is quite social both in and out of the office.

Given OPs comment about being a lateral candidate, worth noting that SG almost universally does not hire laterals. There are of course exceptions, but they are few and far between.

I'm not sure I understand, in light of this thread, what really the draw is of KH.

More prestige, money, and substantive experience than the typical biglaw shop

As compared to SG, I mean.

substantially easier to get job at KH than at SG

[Anonymous User]

Same to be expected out of Susman?

SG associate here. Similar hours expectation (median usually hovers around 2600-2700), but very different on the collegiality--the firm is quite social both in and out of the office.

Given OPs comment about being a lateral candidate, worth noting that SG almost universally does not hire laterals. There are of course exceptions, but they are few and far between.

I'm not sure I understand, in light of this thread, what really the draw is of KH.

More prestige, money, and substantive experience than the typical biglaw shop

As compared to SG, I mean.

substantially easier to get job at KH than at SG

This seems... wrong?

[Anonymous User]

Same to be expected out of Susman?

SG associate here. Similar hours expectation (median usually hovers around 2600-2700), but very different on the collegiality--the firm is quite social both in and out of the office.

Given OPs comment about being a lateral candidate, worth noting that SG almost universally does not hire laterals. There are of course exceptions, but they are few and far between.

I'm not sure I understand, in light of this thread, what really the draw is of KH.

More prestige, money, and substantive experience than the typical biglaw shop

As compared to SG, I mean.

substantially easier to get job at KH than at SG

Untrue. It's easier overall to get a job at SG, although SG NY is maybe more competitive. As for benefits, KH offers higher compensation to associates, more guaranteed compensation to partners (compared to SG's pure EWYK system), significant appellate work, and an office in DC. Also, some people like the nerdy, introverted culture.

[Anonymous User]

Same to be expected out of Susman?

SG associate here. Similar hours expectation (median usually hovers around 2600-2700), but very different on the collegiality--the firm is quite social both in and out of the office.

Given OPs comment about being a lateral candidate, worth noting that SG almost universally does not hire laterals. There are of course exceptions, but they are few and far between.

I'm not sure I understand, in light of this thread, what really the draw is of KH.

More prestige, money, and substantive experience than the typical biglaw shop

As compared to SG, I mean.

substantially easier to get job at KH than at SG

Untrue. It's easier overall to get a job at SG, although SG NY is maybe more competitive. As for benefits, KH offers higher compensation to associates, more guaranteed compensation to partners (compared to SG's pure EWYK system), significant appellate work, and an office in DC. Also, some people like the nerdy, introverted culture.

Anecdote but know several people who got offers at KH and didn't get interviews at SG.

Quick perusing of website makes it seem like SG is a bit more school picky (T6 or Texas with few exceptions), more journal picky (LR close to a req) and less likely to flex the COA req. KH's has more SCOTUS clerks and more Bristows, and KH's top people are more credentialed than SG's top people.

[Anonymous User]

This is the height of navel gazing.

[Anonymous User]

I'm gunning for clerkships and feeling like it's not gonna pan out, but this reminds me that even if my dream came true and I got like a COA clerkship --> elite lit boutique, I would then be in for possibly 3,000 hours by myself in a little office anyway. TLS always comes through with the reality check

[Anonymous User]

I'm gunning for clerkships and feeling like it's not gonna pan out, but this reminds me that even if my dream came true and I got like a COA clerkship --> elite lit boutique, I would then be in for possibly 3,000 hours by myself in a little office anyway. TLS always comes through with the reality check

And, your first few years in, you'd be paid more than triple (at least) in bonus money than your friends/colleagues in Big Law who get market pay but in a larger office with more folks milling around the hallways or gathering for happy hour to discuss which restaurants they want to get a res at next Friday. Pick your poison, to each their own....

[Anonymous User]

I'm gunning for clerkships and feeling like it's not gonna pan out, but this reminds me that even if my dream came true and I got like a COA clerkship --> elite lit boutique, I would then be in for possibly 3,000 hours by myself in a little office anyway. TLS always comes through with the reality check

And, your first few years in, you'd be paid more than triple (at least) in bonus money than your friends/colleagues in Big Law who get market pay but in a larger office with more folks milling around the hallways or gathering for happy hour to discuss which restaurants they want to get a res at next Friday. Pick your poison, to each their own....

arent KH bonuses for first years 30k? Like yeah that's 2X a first year bonus in big law but is 15k really worth 500 billables?

[Anonymous User]

I'm gunning for clerkships and feeling like it's not gonna pan out, but this reminds me that even if my dream came true and I got like a COA clerkship --> elite lit boutique, I would then be in for possibly 3,000 hours by myself in a little office anyway. TLS always comes through with the reality check

And, your first few years in, you'd be paid more than triple (at least) in bonus money than your friends/colleagues in Big Law who get market pay but in a larger office with more folks milling around the hallways or gathering for happy hour to discuss which restaurants they want to get a res at next Friday. Pick your poison, to each their own....

arent KH bonuses for first years 30k? Like yeah that's 2X a first year bonus in big law but is 15k really worth 500 billables?

They're significantly higher. Kellogg first years get $255k base, $175k signing, and end-of-year bonuses far above market. Last year the 3rd-6th year associate bonuses averaged $200k, and the top associates made $400k.

[Anonymous User]

I'm gunning for clerkships and feeling like it's not gonna pan out, but this reminds me that even if my dream came true and I got like a COA clerkship --> elite lit boutique, I would then be in for possibly 3,000 hours by myself in a little office anyway. TLS always comes through with the reality check

And, your first few years in, you'd be paid more than triple (at least) in bonus money than your friends/colleagues in Big Law who get market pay but in a larger office with more folks milling around the hallways or gathering for happy hour to discuss which restaurants they want to get a res at next Friday. Pick your poison, to each their own....

arent KH bonuses for first years 30k? Like yeah that's 2X a first year bonus in big law but is 15k really worth 500 billables?

They're significantly higher. Kellogg first years get $255k base, $175k signing, and end-of-year bonuses far above market. Last year the 3rd-6th year associate bonuses averaged $200k, and the top associates made $400k.

the 175k is a clerkship bonus isnt it? It closes the opportunity cost of clerking vs starting in big law.

My friend's annual was 30 as a first year post clerk and has been told 50 as a second year. Maybe they massively ramp up in a way that skew it when you average 3-6?

[Anonymous User]

I'm gunning for clerkships and feeling like it's not gonna pan out, but this reminds me that even if my dream came true and I got like a COA clerkship --> elite lit boutique, I would then be in for possibly 3,000 hours by myself in a little office anyway. TLS always comes through with the reality check

And, your first few years in, you'd be paid more than triple (at least) in bonus money than your friends/colleagues in Big Law who get market pay but in a larger office with more folks milling around the hallways or gathering for happy hour to discuss which restaurants they want to get a res at next Friday. Pick your poison, to each their own....

arent KH bonuses for first years 30k? Like yeah that's 2X a first year bonus in big law but is 15k really worth 500 billables?

They're significantly higher. Kellogg first years get $255k base, $175k signing, and end-of-year bonuses far above market. Last year the 3rd-6th year associate bonuses averaged $200k, and the top associates made $400k.

What’s the clawback policy on the clerkship bonus?