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Don’t. WLB is 95% like Biglaw for 60% of the pay.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:33 pm

Don’t. WLB is 95% like Biglaw for 60% of the pay.

Well damn. Did you at least get a honeymoon or anything? I hear attrition is lower than elsewhere in Amazon, even if the workload isn't great. Does it vary much by legal team?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:33 pm

Don’t. WLB is 95% like Biglaw for 60% of the pay.

Well damn. Did you at least get a honeymoon or anything? I hear attrition is lower than elsewhere in Amazon, even if the workload isn't great. Does it vary much by legal team?

(Please don’t quote.) Maybe, but that’s not saying much. I’ve been here for just over 1 year, and came over from a V20 firm in NYC. No real honeymoon period outside of general ramp up. Not sure how much it varies by team, but almost everyone I know seems to keep similar hours. On the west coast, you’ve got to be available for east coast calls as early as 7:00am, and then the west coast workday almost always runs to 7:00pm. I’ve had multiple evenings blown up with work—fewer than biglaw, but not an insignificant number and just as unpredictable. There are considerably more fire drills than I dealt with in transactional biglaw, and it’s all very thankless work. In fact, usually less than thankless—the business people love to put legal on blast, escalate to managers all the time, and are generally hostile in order to get their emergencies prioritized over other emergencies. Attempts to be protective of working hours, like declining a 6:00am call, usually results in an escalation to your manager. Managers themselves seem to work around the clock—my manager sends late night and early morning emails on par with the junior partner I worked most with at my firm.

Pros are that weekends are usually protected, and all the legal people are genuinely nice.

But on balance this is basically just biglaw. I am more stressed out on a daily basis here than I was at a firm, for way less pay.

Thanks for sharing. As a biglaw mid-level in M&A, it is helpful to hear what the other side is like. Would you go back to big law in an of-counsel position if you could?

What does the upside from progression look like from your perspective?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:10 pm

Thanks for sharing. As a biglaw mid-level in M&A, it is helpful to hear what the other side is like. Would you go back to big law in an of-counsel position if you could?

I’m not sure—I am currently struggling with this. Can’t decide if I should go back to biglaw, or go to a different company in-house to see if I can find the WLB I thought I’d get by leaving biglaw.

Not sure if the grass is really greener elsewhere, though. Maybe all companies are like this.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:20 pm

What does the upside from progression look like from your perspective?

Plenty of upward progression—people who stick around move up. I’ve seen multiple promotions. They do lowball you on comp for internal promotions as far as I hear, but all companies do that.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:10 pm

Thanks for sharing. As a biglaw mid-level in M&A, it is helpful to hear what the other side is like. Would you go back to big law in an of-counsel position if you could?

I’m not sure—I am currently struggling with this. Can’t decide if I should go back to biglaw, or go to a different company in-house to see if I can find the WLB I thought I’d get by leaving biglaw.

Not sure if the grass is really greener elsewhere, though. Maybe all companies are like this.

Lol. Of course the grass is greener elsewhere. You just have to spend a lot of time and effort getting one of those better jobs, and obviously the comp is going to be worse than biglaw, with limited ups (though it sounds like you made peace with that already).

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:10 pm

Thanks for sharing. As a biglaw mid-level in M&A, it is helpful to hear what the other side is like. Would you go back to big law in an of-counsel position if you could?

I’m not sure—I am currently struggling with this. Can’t decide if I should go back to biglaw, or go to a different company in-house to see if I can find the WLB I thought I’d get by leaving biglaw.

Not sure if the grass is really greener elsewhere, though. Maybe all companies are like this.

For what it's worth, my in-house job is nothing like this. It's pretty standard 8-5 other than rare emergencies or business travel. I would generalize all in-house jobs based on your experience at Amazon.

nealric wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:10 pm

Thanks for sharing. As a biglaw mid-level in M&A, it is helpful to hear what the other side is like. Would you go back to big law in an of-counsel position if you could?

I’m not sure—I am currently struggling with this. Can’t decide if I should go back to biglaw, or go to a different company in-house to see if I can find the WLB I thought I’d get by leaving biglaw.

Not sure if the grass is really greener elsewhere, though. Maybe all companies are like this.

For what it's worth, my in-house job is nothing like this. It's pretty standard 8-5 other than rare emergencies or business travel. I would generalize all in-house jobs based on your experience at Amazon.

Are your days really stressful, filled with fire drills and constant meetings/calls that make it even harder to deal with the fire drills? That’s a big part of what’s irked me too—not just the long hours, but the general stress level day to day. I thought in-house was supposed to be chill.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:35 pm

nealric wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:10 pm

Thanks for sharing. As a biglaw mid-level in M&A, it is helpful to hear what the other side is like. Would you go back to big law in an of-counsel position if you could?

I’m not sure—I am currently struggling with this. Can’t decide if I should go back to biglaw, or go to a different company in-house to see if I can find the WLB I thought I’d get by leaving biglaw.

Not sure if the grass is really greener elsewhere, though. Maybe all companies are like this.

For what it's worth, my in-house job is nothing like this. It's pretty standard 8-5 other than rare emergencies or business travel. I would generalize all in-house jobs based on your experience at Amazon.

Are your days really stressful, filled with fire drills and constant meetings/calls that make it even harder to deal with the fire drills? That’s a big part of what’s irked me too—not just the long hours, but the general stress level day to day. I thought in-house was supposed to be chill.

No. I have a decent number of meetings, but fire drills are rare. It's generally pretty chill. Frankly, I feel like constant firedrills anywhere are usually a sign of poor management somewhere in the organization. Sometimes emergencies happen, but with proper planning that shouldn't be often. Only time I've had firedrills is when a deal counterparty directly caused it (like a last-minute re-trade) or when time-sensitive notice was not properly routed and we got it last minute.

EDIT: realized I left out a *not* in my prior response. I would *NOT* generalize all in-house jobs based on your experience at Amazon.

I can speak as someone who was in biglaw (M&A), later went in-house (at a media company), then went to a start up and now is planning to return to a boutique law firm. I left my in-house position because I got bored, but weekends were always protected and you could pretty much do all of the assigned work within 4 very concentrated hours per day if you put your head down and focused. Some of the work was very interesting, but I just found myself overall not being sufficiently challenged and wanting an opportunity with more available growth. Lot of in house positions are like this (at least anecdotally from my experience in a west coast major city). The comp was like 55% of my comp at the time I left, so that was one big trade off.

Fwiw, I went in house some time ago and qol has improved dramatically. Fewer meetings (usually 1-2 a day at most) and pretty much a standard 9-5 with some evening remote work here and there, and no weekends. Total comp between 1st and 2nd year associate pay, so a paycut compared to current mid-level and senior associate pay scales, but that seems pretty inevitable unless you can score the mythical 400-500k+ positions that crop up once in a while.

I'd say it could be worth looking into other in house positions with better WLB, the culture at Amazon seems a little suspect and hit or miss based on everything I've heard about the company.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:55 pm

(Please don’t quote.) Maybe, but that’s not saying much. I’ve been here for just over 1 year, and came over from a V20 firm in NYC. No real honeymoon period outside of general ramp up. Not sure how much it varies by team, but almost everyone I know seems to keep similar hours. On the west coast, you’ve got to be available for east coast calls as early as 7:00am, and then the west coast workday almost always runs to 7:00pm. I’ve had multiple evenings blown up with work—fewer than biglaw, but not an insignificant number and just as unpredictable. There are considerably more fire drills than I dealt with in transactional biglaw, and it’s all very thankless work. In fact, usually less than thankless—the business people love to put legal on blast, escalate to managers all the time, and are generally hostile in order to get their emergencies prioritized over other emergencies. Attempts to be protective of working hours, like declining a 6:00am call, usually results in an escalation to your manager. Managers themselves seem to work around the clock—my manager sends late night and early morning emails on par with the junior partner I worked most with at my firm.

Pros are that weekends are usually protected, and all the legal people are genuinely nice.

But on balance this is basically just biglaw. I am more stressed out on a daily basis here than I was at a firm, for way less pay.

FWIW, 7 - 7 M-Fri is materially better than what I currently do as a corporate junior/mid at a V10. I don't think I've had a weekday workday end before 7pmET once, in the past calendar year - like it's just impossible to make weeknight plans. I'm usually responding to emails until 11pm/midnight.

Heard Amazon sucks to work for, a 60% paycut is trash, etc, so not disagreeing with that. But your V20 job, hour-wise, sounds like it was pretty good if 7-7 isn't much of an improvement.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:40 pm

[avoiding quoting per request]

Just FWIW, 7 - 7 M-Fri with weekends generally protected is def better than what I currently do as a corporate junior/mid at a V10. I don't think I've had a weekday workday end before 7pmET once, in the past calendar year - like it's near impossible to make weeknight plans, ever.

Morning calls suck obviously, but if you told me I'd have to do 1-2 7ams a week and in exchange would have 4 nights ending by 7pm and no weekends, I would definitely consider that a plus trade on the whole.

Heard Amazon sucks to work for, a 60% paycut is trash, etc, so not trying to say your situation is awesome or anything. but on the hours part specifically, I'd consider that a QoL improvement

Just weighing in to say that the grass IS greener in-house if you find the right position. AMZN sounds terrible based on this description (and I’ve heard whisperings before that they are really bad). Definitely worth looking into moving companies. Everyone I know working in-house (including myself) have it much better and wouldn’t ever consider going back to big law. Don’t give up hope!

im at my second biglaw firm. unless the two posts above are from the same poster, 7-7 being a material upgrade in the working schedule for some of you is wild. u guys need to move firms..

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:41 pm

im at my second biglaw firm. unless the two posts above are from the same poster, 7-7 being a material upgrade in the working schedule for some of you is wild. u guys need to move firms..

I guess if it's really really important to you to shut down at 7 and you otherwise don't mind a 60 hour week, it's a perspective? Having to be at work at 7am would be my personal hell.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 25, 2022 3:01 pm

Having to be at work at 7am would be my personal hell.

OP. Yes. Basically a reverse all nighter

OP what is your all-in comp?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:06 am

OP what is your all-in comp?

Not accounting for changes in stock price since I accepted the offer (I believe I’m in the red at the moment), ~$300k.

With how many YOE?

d39524s wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:22 pm

With how many YOE?

~6

I know someone who joined Amazon's in-house litigation team, and she said pretty much the same thing. She said her group is like a large biglaw department, and that she is just as busy now as she was back at our old firm. Whereas I went in-house as well, but have much better work-life balance, with very little need for weekend or late-night work.

I'm at Amazon. I hate it. I haven't worked a weekend since joining, but I do work BigLaw-ish hours at times for significantly less pay. I think your work life balance at Amazon is very dependent on what business lines you support--some lawyers have it made others not so much. If your team is in a high growth period, you will be working all the time. Or in my case, my team just needs a lot of hand holding so I'm basically a babysitter for newly minted MBAs.

For reference: I'm an ACC came in from a N5 V5 as a 3rd year. TC: $250k