Penn Law Honors Forum

[Anonymous User]

in response to some rubble-rousing by one particularly annoying individual who liked to get his name in the press

Yes, the annoying rabble rousing of someone who did not want to be forced to take a class with a known bigot.

No one was forced to take a class with her, and said individual was never going to take that conservative legal thought course with her or anyone else.

[Anonymous User]

in response to some rubble-rousing by one particularly annoying individual who liked to get his name in the press

Yes, the annoying rabble rousing of someone who did not want to be forced to take a class with a known bigot.

No one was forced to take a class with her, and said individual was never going to take that conservative legal thought course with her or anyone else.

Is this "individual" a student or professor (TBW?)?

[Anonymous User]

in response to some rubble-rousing by one particularly annoying individual who liked to get his name in the press

Yes, the annoying rabble rousing of someone who did not want to be forced to take a class with a known bigot.

No one was forced to take a class with her, and said individual was never going to take that conservative legal thought course with her or anyone else.

Is this "individual" a student or professor (TBW?)?

Student. Although that's a good guess.

[Anonymous User]

in response to some rubble-rousing by one particularly annoying individual who liked to get his name in the press

Yes, the annoying rabble rousing of someone who did not want to be forced to take a class with a known bigot.

No one was forced to take a class with her, and said individual was never going to take that conservative legal thought course with her or anyone else.

Is this "individual" a student or professor (TBW?)?

Student. Although that's a good guess.

Could you please share an article? I have a number of guesses since lots of people like to go to the press with the same Amy Wax grievances

[Anonymous User]

Any insights on any of the following?
When do we find out honors distinction?
Is 4.0+ during 2L and 3L common?
Is the methodology consistent YOY?
Are +/- given weight?
Is strength of schedule taken into account and on if so on what basis? Seems arbitrary and subjective at best.

[Anonymous User]

in response to some rubble-rousing by one particularly annoying individual who liked to get his name in the press

Yes, the annoying rabble rousing of someone who did not want to be forced to take a class with a known bigot.

No one was forced to take a class with her, and said individual was never going to take that conservative legal thought course with her or anyone else.

Is this "individual" a student or professor (TBW?)?

Student. Although that's a good guess.

Could you please share an article? I have a number of guesses since lots of people like to go to the press with the same Amy Wax grievances

[Anonymous User]

Any insights on any of the following?
When do we find out honors distinction?
Is 4.0+ during 2L and 3L common?
Is the methodology consistent YOY?
Are +/- given weight?
Is strength of schedule taken into account and on if so on what basis? Seems arbitrary and subjective at best.

Pretty sure the honors distinction is e-mailed to the class on the Friday before graduation. If by over a 4.0 you mean over a 4.0 cumulative GPA over the last 2 years, that's obviously not "common." A+s depend on the professor. You can look at the data in the Registrar's office and see that some professors never give any, while others seem to put that grade on the curve and always give it to like the top 5% of the class every year. I've anecdotally heard strength of schedule is not taken into account, but I think it should be. The upper level curves are absolutely insane, you have some black letters on the 1L curve and others give the median student an A.

[Anonymous User]

Any insights on any of the following?
When do we find out honors distinction?
Is 4.0+ during 2L and 3L common?
Is the methodology consistent YOY?
Are +/- given weight?
Is strength of schedule taken into account and on if so on what basis? Seems arbitrary and subjective at best.

Pretty sure the honors distinction is e-mailed to the class on the Friday before graduation. If by over a 4.0 you mean over a 4.0 cumulative GPA over the last 2 years, that's obviously not "common." A+s depend on the professor. You can look at the data in the Registrar's office and see that some professors never give any, while others seem to put that grade on the curve and always give it to like the top 5% of the class every year. I've anecdotally heard strength of schedule is not taken into account, but I think it should be. The upper level curves are absolutely insane, you have some black letters on the 1L curve and others give the median student an A.

Helpful, thank you. I’ve noticed policy around giving A+ is professor specific; therefore it shouldn’t be taken into account. In retrospect, had I known earlier that the law school did not adhere to the broader university’s gpa methodology I would’ve considered whether A+ are given when selecting classes.

[Anonymous User]

Any insights on any of the following?
When do we find out honors distinction?
Is 4.0+ during 2L and 3L common?
Is the methodology consistent YOY?
Are +/- given weight?
Is strength of schedule taken into account and on if so on what basis? Seems arbitrary and subjective at best.

Pretty sure the honors distinction is e-mailed to the class on the Friday before graduation. If by over a 4.0 you mean over a 4.0 cumulative GPA over the last 2 years, that's obviously not "common." A+s depend on the professor. You can look at the data in the Registrar's office and see that some professors never give any, while others seem to put that grade on the curve and always give it to like the top 5% of the class every year. I've anecdotally heard strength of schedule is not taken into account, but I think it should be. The upper level curves are absolutely insane, you have some black letters on the 1L curve and others give the median student an A.

Helpful, thank you. I’ve noticed policy around giving A+ is professor specific; therefore it shouldn’t be taken into account. In retrospect, had I known earlier that the law school did not adhere to the broader university’s gpa methodology I would’ve considered whether A+ are given when selecting classes.

Difficult to envision a reliable measure of strength of schedule. Doctrinal vs. non-doctrinal? See grade distribution disparities within and across both buckets--unworkable in the absence of a highly complex and precise formula (which the administrators are undoubtedly incapable of devising or applying).

So should they instead look at classes that are generally perceived as being more difficult (e.g., evidence)? Highly subjective. The body of your overall coursework/experience influences performance in those classes. If you've specialized in lit courses , focused on lit as a summer associate, and/or worked as a judicial intern, there are overlaps that allow you to leverage that experience and prior knowledge to outperform at a level greater in other lit classes than you would in a conventionally "easier" seminar covering an area of the law that is more foreign to you. Same goes for corps/sec reg/M&A--tons of classes teach that material over and over.

The opacity of all of this troubling.

[Anonymous User]

Any insights on any of the following?
When do we find out honors distinction?
Is 4.0+ during 2L and 3L common?
Is the methodology consistent YOY?
Are +/- given weight?
Is strength of schedule taken into account and on if so on what basis? Seems arbitrary and subjective at best.

Pretty sure the honors distinction is e-mailed to the class on the Friday before graduation. If by over a 4.0 you mean over a 4.0 cumulative GPA over the last 2 years, that's obviously not "common." A+s depend on the professor. You can look at the data in the Registrar's office and see that some professors never give any, while others seem to put that grade on the curve and always give it to like the top 5% of the class every year. I've anecdotally heard strength of schedule is not taken into account, but I think it should be. The upper level curves are absolutely insane, you have some black letters on the 1L curve and others give the median student an A.

Helpful, thank you. I’ve noticed policy around giving A+ is professor specific; therefore it shouldn’t be taken into account. In retrospect, had I known earlier that the law school did not adhere to the broader university’s gpa methodology I would’ve considered whether A+ are given when selecting classes.

Difficult to envision a reliable measure of strength of schedule. Doctrinal vs. non-doctrinal? See grade distribution disparities within and across both buckets--unworkable in the absence of a highly complex and precise formula (which the administrators are undoubtedly incapable of devising or applying).

So should they instead look at classes that are generally perceived as being more difficult (e.g., evidence)? Highly subjective. The body of your overall coursework/experience influences performance in those classes. If you've specialized in lit courses , focused on lit as a summer associate, and/or worked as a judicial intern, there are overlaps that allow you to leverage that experience and prior knowledge to outperform at a level greater in other lit classes than you would in a conventionally "easier" seminar covering an area of the law that is more foreign to you. Same goes for corps/sec reg/M&A--tons of classes teach that material over and over.

The opacity of all of this troubling.

It would actually be pretty easy to take strength of schedule into account with rudimentary statistics. You essentially just give each student a standardized score based on how much that student outperforms the median grade in each class. Can easily be done for every class. It would only get slightly weird because there are some classes where the median and top grade are both A.

If the school actually wanted to make the honors distinction the most relevant, then it should just enforce a standard curve distribution that is the same for every class, like Chicago. That’s really the easiest way to do it. But I personally don’t want that and I doubt many people outside of the biggest gunners would want that either.

I just wish the school would provide clarity on how they do this stuff. And I would like some indication of where each student stands in the class purely for OCI and clerkship purposes. It doesn’t even have to be an actual numerical rank like even ranges just saying if you were in 0-20%, 20-40%, 40-60%, 60-80%, 80-100%, would be super helpful.

[Anonymous User]

Any insights on any of the following?
When do we find out honors distinction?
Is 4.0+ during 2L and 3L common?
Is the methodology consistent YOY?
Are +/- given weight?
Is strength of schedule taken into account and on if so on what basis? Seems arbitrary and subjective at best.

This was all answered upthread.

The faculty convenes the morning of the 12th (the Friday before graduation) to vote on degrees and decide awards/prizes.

For honors, they're given a list of anonymized GPAs and decide the cutoffs. One can do the math based off previous years to get a rough idea of percentages.

Class awards are voted on by the faculty. For "highest achievement in X course" awards, the faculty are told who got the highest grade in those classes and then vote on the students.

A+s are weighed more than As. Strength of schedule isn't taken into account, but when deciding the summas, they look at students' overall graded vs. non-graded units.

No idea if 4.0+ is "common" - I doubt it. I know people who've done it, though.

The opacity of all of this troubling.

I mean... Have you ever asked?

[Anonymous User]

The opacity of all of this troubling.

I mean... Have you ever asked?

It's not normal to have to ask. Most schools lay out information like this in their handbooks/websites.

[Anonymous User]

The opacity of all of this troubling.

I mean... Have you ever asked?

It's not normal to have to ask. Most schools lay out information like this in their handbooks/websites.

This^.
First, thanks for laying all of that out.
Second, I’ve brought these questions (and many others) to Lin and other faculty and have gotten nothing helpful in response. None of the information you provided is contained within any official law school documentation.
Third, Lin couldnt even answer what the GPA methodology is and whether it is consistent YOY. I find that alarming. Even more problematic is that we all graduate without knowing our GPAs as determined by school sanctioned methodology. Complete nonsense.

[Anonymous User]

This^.
First, thanks for laying all of that out.
Second, I’ve brought these questions (and many others) to Lin and other faculty and have gotten nothing helpful in response. None of the information you provided is contained within any official law school documentation.
Third, Lin couldnt even answer what the GPA methodology is and whether it is consistent YOY. I find that alarming. Even more problematic is that we all graduate without knowing our GPAs as determined by school sanctioned methodology. Complete nonsense.

It's not normal to have to ask. Most schools lay out information like this in their handbooks/websites.

Oh, I agree with you both. The school's approach to this outrageous. To her credit, the registrar herself has always answered my questions.

The faculty are clueless, as is the rest of Student Affairs (and some in the latter are openly hostile when asked). None of those people seem to understand why anyone might care, which is infuriating.

[existentialcrisis]

Why do you folks care so much about numerical GPAs? Isn't not having them combined with grade inflation and obscuring class rank like a very deliberate attempt to help the bottom of the class continue to look desirable to firms? What they've got going seems to be working pretty well.

[Anonymous User]

Why do you folks care so much about numerical GPAs? Isn't not having them combined with grade inflation and obscuring class rank like a very deliberate attempt to help the bottom of the class continue to look desirable to firms? What they've got going seems to be working pretty well.

As a top student who’s worked their ass off I personally couldn’t care less about helping the bottom at my expense.

[Anonymous User]

Why do you folks care so much about numerical GPAs? Isn't not having them combined with grade inflation and obscuring class rank like a very deliberate attempt to help the bottom of the class continue to look desirable to firms? What they've got going seems to be working pretty well.

As a top student who’s worked their ass off I personally couldn’t care less about helping the bottom at my expense.

Agreed. I prefer actually valuing hard work and not making things more arbitrary and ambiguous to help spread out accolades (see law review, graduation awards). So much of how Penn operates, even compared to peer schools, makes success way more likely if you happen to know the right people who can explain how things work.

[existentialcrisis]

Why do you folks care so much about numerical GPAs? Isn't not having them combined with grade inflation and obscuring class rank like a very deliberate attempt to help the bottom of the class continue to look desirable to firms? What they've got going seems to be working pretty well.

As a top student who’s worked their ass off I personally couldn’t care less about helping the bottom at my expense.

Agreed. I prefer actually valuing hard work and not making things more arbitrary and ambiguous to help spread out accolades (see law review, graduation awards). So much of how Penn operates, even compared to peer schools, makes success way more likely if you happen to know the right people who can explain how things work.

Lol but when you went to penn you didn’t know you’d be a top student, though. Largely the point/advantage of going to a T14 is that law school exams ae a crap shoot and average to below average students are still fine there.

I’m not saying the way you feel is invalid, but the school’s main priority with the grading system is and always will be to help out the bottom of the class, not to boost the folks at the top who will be fine anyways.

Like will whether or not you get manga vs summa or whatever make any kind of material difference in your career?

[Anonymous User]

Why do you folks care so much about numerical GPAs? Isn't not having them combined with grade inflation and obscuring class rank like a very deliberate attempt to help the bottom of the class continue to look desirable to firms? What they've got going seems to be working pretty well.

As a top student who’s worked their ass off I personally couldn’t care less about helping the bottom at my expense.

Agreed. I prefer actually valuing hard work and not making things more arbitrary and ambiguous to help spread out accolades (see law review, graduation awards). So much of how Penn operates, even compared to peer schools, makes success way more likely if you happen to know the right people who can explain how things work.

Lol but when you went to penn you didn’t know you’d be a top student, though. Largely the point/advantage of going to a T14 is that law school exams ae a crap shoot and average to below average students are still fine there.

I’m not saying the way you feel is invalid, but the school’s main priority with the grading system is and always will be to help out the bottom of the class, not to boost the folks at the top who will be fine anyways.

Like will whether or not you get manga vs summa or whatever make any kind of material difference in your career?

I strongly disagree that law school exams are a crapshoot. Maybe it's a crapshoot between A/A- but not overall. And it's not right to assume top students will be fine so who cares... if anything the most charismatic students have the biggest leg up when it comes to jobs.

[Anonymous User]

Why do you folks care so much about numerical GPAs? Isn't not having them combined with grade inflation and obscuring class rank like a very deliberate attempt to help the bottom of the class continue to look desirable to firms? What they've got going seems to be working pretty well.

As a top student who’s worked their ass off I personally couldn’t care less about helping the bottom at my expense.

Agreed. I prefer actually valuing hard work and not making things more arbitrary and ambiguous to help spread out accolades (see law review, graduation awards). So much of how Penn operates, even compared to peer schools, makes success way more likely if you happen to know the right people who can explain how things work.

Lol but when you went to penn you didn’t know you’d be a top student, though. Largely the point/advantage of going to a T14 is that law school exams ae a crap shoot and average to below average students are still fine there.

I’m not saying the way you feel is invalid, but the school’s main priority with the grading system is and always will be to help out the bottom of the class, not to boost the folks at the top who will be fine anyways.

Like will whether or not you get manga vs summa or whatever make any kind of material difference in your career?

I strongly disagree that law school exams are a crapshoot. Maybe it's a crapshoot between A/A- but not overall. And it's not right to assume top students will be fine so who cares... if anything the most charismatic students have the biggest leg up when it comes to jobs.

Second this. And it’s unknowable whether it will make a material difference, but I certainly wouldn’t rule out the potential that some future opportunities could be attributable, whether directly or indirectly, to certain distinctions

[Anonymous User]

I am glad I found this forum. I often feel like I am the odd one out in regretting coming to Penn over peer schools, and none of my friends take a critical eye to how this school operates (beyond Amy Wax, perhaps).

[Anonymous User]

I am glad I found this forum. I often feel like I am the odd one out in regretting coming to Penn over peer schools, and none of my friends take a critical eye to how this school operates (beyond Amy Wax, perhaps).

I don't regret it for a moment. We're way better off—in my opinion—than most of our peer schools on a day-to-day basis when it comes to most things. Poke around this forum a bit more and you'll see what I mean.

I'm very critical of the school's approach to blackbox everything, and OCS sucks. No institution is perfect. But I'm damn glad I came to school here over, say, NYU or something.

[Anonymous User]

I am glad I found this forum. I often feel like I am the odd one out in regretting coming to Penn over peer schools, and none of my friends take a critical eye to how this school operates (beyond Amy Wax, perhaps).

I don't regret it for a moment. We're way better off—in my opinion—than most of our peer schools on a day-to-day basis when it comes to most things. Poke around this forum a bit more and you'll see what I mean.

I'm very critical of the school's approach to blackbox everything, and OCS sucks. No institution is perfect. But I'm damn glad I came to school here over, say, NYU or something.

To each their own! I wish I had gone to NYU.

[Anonymous User]

I am glad I found this forum. I often feel like I am the odd one out in regretting coming to Penn over peer schools, and none of my friends take a critical eye to how this school operates (beyond Amy Wax, perhaps).

I don't regret it for a moment. We're way better off—in my opinion—than most of our peer schools on a day-to-day basis when it comes to most things. Poke around this forum a bit more and you'll see what I mean.

I'm very critical of the school's approach to blackbox everything, and OCS sucks. No institution is perfect. But I'm damn glad I came to school here over, say, NYU or something.

What is your favorite thing about Penn?

[Anonymous User]

I am glad I found this forum. I often feel like I am the odd one out in regretting coming to Penn over peer schools, and none of my friends take a critical eye to how this school operates (beyond Amy Wax, perhaps).

I don't regret it for a moment. We're way better off—in my opinion—than most of our peer schools on a day-to-day basis when it comes to most things. Poke around this forum a bit more and you'll see what I mean.

I'm very critical of the school's approach to blackbox everything, and OCS sucks. No institution is perfect. But I'm damn glad I came to school here over, say, NYU or something.

[deleted]