Big4 Transaction Tax to Big Law Forum

[DmacShow]

I am looking to make the move from the Big4 to Big Law. I am currently a Manager at the Big4 on a transaction tax team (tax diligence and structuring) for private equity/corporate clients on M&A transactions. I came to the Big4 straight out of law school and have been at the same firm since graduating 4 years ago. Obviously passed the bar and have maintained bar credentials.

Curious as to anyone’s experience moving from the Big4 to a Big Law firm from transaction tax. Mainly looking at Big Law roles on either the tax, private equity, or M&A teams.

[Anonymous User]

If you want biglaw more than anything, then Exec comp is the best way to break in. You won’t break into a PE/M&A team straight from big4 unless you know someone. Tax is also difficult because of the limited number of spots. Exec comp is always hiring, and they seem to take M&A tax folks from big4 regularly.

[DmacShow]

I am looking to make the move from the Big4 to Big Law. I am currently a Manager at the Big4 on a transaction tax team (tax diligence and structuring) for private equity/corporate clients on M&A transactions. I came to the Big4 straight out of law school and have been at the same firm since graduating 4 years ago. Obviously passed the bar and have maintained bar credentials.

Curious as to anyone’s experience moving from the Big4 to a Big Law firm from transaction tax. Mainly looking at Big Law roles on either the tax, private equity, or M&A teams.

Thanks for the reply.

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to doing exec comp, but my guess is the exec comp team wouldn't be too keen on taking someone on that has very limited/no exec comp experience, correct?
My exec comp experience would be limited to a niche analysis of if certain payments in M&A would be considered capital gain or comp/ordinary income.

[Anonymous User]

If you want biglaw more than anything, then Exec comp is the best way to break in. You won’t break into a PE/M&A team straight from big4 unless you know someone. Tax is also difficult because of the limited number of spots. Exec comp is always hiring, and they seem to take M&A tax folks from big4 regularly.

I was at a big4, and I know at least 5 people from my group including myself who jumped to biglaw tax straight in the past 2-4 years. I know another 10+ people from other big4/groups that jumped in the same period. Check the job description of Linklaters hiring tax right now. They actually prefer the big4.

That said, you will most definitely take class year haircut(s). Just keep blanket applying the V100 / Amlaw 200, prioritizing anyone you know in the firms to get a referral.

[Anonymous User]

If you want biglaw more than anything, then Exec comp is the best way to break in. You won’t break into a PE/M&A team straight from big4 unless you know someone. Tax is also difficult because of the limited number of spots. Exec comp is always hiring, and they seem to take M&A tax folks from big4 regularly.

I was at a big4, and I know at least 5 people from my group including myself who jumped to biglaw tax straight in the past 2-4 years. I know another 10+ people from other big4/groups that jumped in the same period. Check the job description of Linklaters hiring tax right now. They actually prefer the big4.

That said, you will most definitely take class year haircut(s). Just keep blanket applying the V100 / Amlaw 200, prioritizing anyone you know in the firms to get a referral.

Thanks good to hear its more common than I thought. Working with a few people who may refer me. But any tips on specific firms who may be open to big4 hires? Can PM me if better.

Also might as well note I am west coast, I saw the Linklaters posting for NYC and see they don't have west coast offices.

[DmacShow]

If you want biglaw more than anything, then Exec comp is the best way to break in. You won’t break into a PE/M&A team straight from big4 unless you know someone. Tax is also difficult because of the limited number of spots. Exec comp is always hiring, and they seem to take M&A tax folks from big4 regularly.

I was at a big4, and I know at least 5 people from my group including myself who jumped to biglaw tax straight in the past 2-4 years. I know another 10+ people from other big4/groups that jumped in the same period. Check the job description of Linklaters hiring tax right now. They actually prefer the big4.

That said, you will most definitely take class year haircut(s). Just keep blanket applying the V100 / Amlaw 200, prioritizing anyone you know in the firms to get a referral.

Thanks good to hear its more common than I thought. Working with a few people who may refer me. But any tips on specific firms who may be open to big4 hires? Can PM me if better.

Also might as well note I am west coast, I saw the Linklaters posting for NYC and see they don't have west coast offices.

^ this is me, accidental annon

[Anonymous User]

Exec comp may be easier to get into but I think it will slightly derail your career, you are better off waiting for a tax position. With your specific experience, BL tax should be achievable.

[DiligentSage]

Agree with the above that I see more examples of exec comp being a more natural landing spot but if you have no experience there, then probably not worth trying to make that transition. My firm's hiring for tax FTW and I've talked to tax folks there who have expressed openness to candidates with Big 4 backgrounds. Feel free to DM if you want to chat.

[GeraltR]

I'm in a similar situation boat. I've been in my Big4 for three years (going into my 4th) doing international tax planning and structuring for hedge funds/PE type companies etc and mostly working. I'm having a hard time figuring out how to even start the job search/application process. I'm being set up for possible promotion to manager next year but I don't even know if I have it in me to be there that long anymore.

I'm in NYC but barred in a different state but having a hard time navigating whether I should just keep applying till something hits.

I will say we've had a number of people from my group move to BigLaw, from associates with 6 months experience to managers that have been here for 5 yrs and most of them are in either asset management or general tax groups.

[nealric]

I'm in a similar situation boat. I've been in my Big4 for three years (going into my 4th) doing international tax planning and structuring for hedge funds/PE type companies etc and mostly working. I'm having a hard time figuring out how to even start the job search/application process. I'm being set up for possible promotion to manager next year but I don't even know if I have it in me to be there that long anymore.

I'm in NYC but barred in a different state but having a hard time navigating whether I should just keep applying till something hits.

I will say we've had a number of people from my group move to BigLaw, from associates with 6 months experience to managers that have been here for 5 yrs and most of them are in either asset management or general tax groups.

If you can stick it out, I think a "Manager" title makes you a lot more marketable in the lateral market.

[Anonymous User]

I've seen one example of Big4 Tax (top 3 tax LLM, but who had never practiced inside a law firm) to V25 M&A in a significant and desperately busy non-NYC office that had experienced a lot of attrition. It is possible, but the stars need to align, since laterals from a known quantity competitor firm are substantially more reliable and already trained. This example required substantial "re-tooling" and is by far and away the least sought-after timekeeper on the floor.

[2013]

I've seen one example of Big4 Tax (top 3 tax LLM, but who had never practiced inside a law firm) to V25 M&A in a significant and desperately busy non-NYC office that had experienced a lot of attrition. It is possible, but the stars need to align, since laterals from a known quantity competitor firm are substantially more reliable and already trained. This example required substantial "re-tooling" and is by far and away the least sought-after timekeeper on the floor.

I’ve seen retools like this, and it’s sad how much of a haircut people need to take! I’ve seen 5 year haircuts.

[jdkale]

If you are interested in this in LA (and have a very impressive resume), message me.

[jdkale]

Anybody home? This is the job that you log on to this dumb message board to say that you want, and nobody is taking any interest. I have serious financial reasons to want to make a new friend here.

[Anonymous User]

Anybody home? This is the job that you log on to this dumb message board to say that you want, and nobody is taking any interest. I have serious financial reasons to want to make a new friend here.

You seem very pleasant to work with, and I think I speak for everyone when I predict that scores of job-seekers must be so excited at the prospect of working with you that they can't even focus on their outreach to apply.

[jdkale]

I don't handle the applications. I did this very thing and would have liked to help someone achieve exactly what they said they wanted (and, yes, get a bonus). I guess the recruiting department's job is harder than I've given them credit for. Happy holidays.

[Anonymous User]

I don't handle the applications. I did this very thing and would have liked to help someone achieve exactly what they said they wanted (and, yes, get a bonus). I guess the recruiting department's job is harder than I've given them credit for. Happy holidays.

You're done here. Good day.

[jdkale]

Well I certainly got told off by Mr. Anonymous. There is no point in arguing here, but I’m not the one who is going to get punished if we hire through the usual channels. If there is a serious tax lawyer here who actually wants the big job for real, I strongly suggest you do get in touch soon. Otherwise keep hitting the message board, I’m sure it’s actually great.

[2013]

Well I certainly got told off by Mr. Anonymous. There is no point in arguing here, but I’m not the one who is going to get punished if we hire through the usual channels. If there is a serious tax lawyer here who actually wants the big job for real, I strongly suggest you do get in touch soon. Otherwise keep hitting the message board, I’m sure it’s actually great.

You asked if people wanted a job in LA. That eliminates like 90% of people. Then you said they needed to have a very impressive resume. That probably eliminates an additional 9% of people. That’s probably why no one is messaging you.

[jdkale]

Sure, that is fine. There is nothing I can do about that.

[Anonymous User]

Consider a move to London as well - many of the V20 in London focus on PE and hire ex-big4 for tax (usually qualified, but qualification in the UK is relatively straightforward now).

[Anonymous User]

I’m a tax equity partner. My perspective:

I would give basically no consideration at all to a big4 person unless I had a ton of experience working directly with them (or my partners did).

I would be extremely skeptical about giving any consideration to someone that wasn’t at Washington National tax. The stuff done by the field office type of folks typically just doesn’t translate very well to BigLaw work. The fact that you’re from a big 4 doesn’t mean that suddenly weren’t going to be doing the modeling or diligence—we’re still doing the parts you didn’t do and the account firm is still doing the parts you did. The substantive legal knowledge translates obviously, and it’s often the case that good folks from the big4 actually know the law in their area of expertise better than the lawyers (because doing the modeling forced you to really really know if), but that’s only a part of what we do.

Obviously some people have made the jump, both at associate and at the highest partnership levels (e.g., Weil tax is now staffed with a lot of ex-accounting firm people, Kirkland has one very senior tax partner in Texas that was at a big4 for awhile), but the stars really do have to align and the starting threshold in my mind is that you’ll only have a shot coming in through people you’ve impressed with your work.

[CanadianWolf]

I’m a tax equity partner. My perspective:

I would give basically no consideration at all to a big4 person unless I had a ton of experience working directly with them (or my partners did).

I would be extremely skeptical about giving any consideration to someone that wasn’t at Washington National tax. The stuff done by the field office type of folks typically just doesn’t translate very well to BigLaw work. The fact that you’re from a big 4 doesn’t mean that suddenly weren’t going to be doing the modeling or diligence—we’re still doing the parts you didn’t do and the account firm is still doing the parts you did. The substantive legal knowledge translates obviously, and it’s often the case that good folks from the big4 actually know the law in their area of expertise better than the lawyers (because doing the modeling forced you to really really know if), but that’s only a part of what we do.

Obviously some people have made the jump, both at associate and at the highest partnership levels (e.g., Weil tax is now staffed with a lot of ex-accounting firm people, Kirkland has one very senior tax partner in Texas that was at a big4 for awhile), but the stars really do have to align and the starting threshold in my mind is that you’ll only have a shot coming in through people you’ve impressed with your work.

Great response.

Are you willing to expand upon what biglaw transactional tax attorneys do versus what Big 4 transactional M&A tax attorneys do ? (Thank you in advance.)

[Anonymous User]

Equity partner from above.

Peoples’ experiences may vary, of course, but in my experience:

I would split accounting firms into two groups. The “ground level” people do (a) most of the diligence grunt work (going through a target’s tax returns, tax provision, state and local tax compliance, etc) that associates handle in other areas (I‘ve only been in a data room maybe a dozen times in my career); (b) almost all of the numerical modeling (I.e., figuring out the numerical consequences of a transaction etc), with the only real exception being occasional stuff in respect of debt issues that are really easy to run (frankly, in my experience, the corporate people do more in excel than we do working through deal waterfalls, warrant dillution provisions, etc.); (c) almost all of the actual work involved with putting together and filing tax returns and tax accounting work papers (this is one of the reasons it can be somewhat harder for a lawyer to go tax in-house than an accountant—it obviously happens but there is significant retooling involved); (d) more of the internal to the company tax planning stuff (I.e., much of the footwork people in the press grumble about regarding transfer pricing and similar), though some firms do more of this than others; (e) much of the administrative-level work in terms of dealing with irs audits and assessments, though lawyers do get involved at this stage for big enough issues; (f) some tax opinion work.

The “Washington National tax” people oversee the work of the ground level folks and also do more of the tax opinion/etc stuff. Lots of private letter ruling work. These folks are often highly specialized and know the law in their particular area better than many law firm people. Most of them have JDs, and this is where former irs and treasury people tend to land, more often than law firms.

For law firm folks, as noted above, there are some places where you get into internal company tax planning and such, but not as often (partly because a lot of this requires economic analysis that accounting firms can do in house but law firms have to outsource, which increases fees in a way that it’s hard for in house tax folks to justify). Mostly it’s m&a/funds formation/restructuring transactional work, on one hand (with people often developing more expertise on either the funds or transactional side), and tax controversy, on the other hand. There are some tax folks that do both transactional and controversy work but that seems to be largely phasing out with the newer generation of lawyers. We handle all of the tax stuff in actual legal documents—accounting firms are not allowed to do that, yay for cartels. We review the work the accounting firms did in terms of modeling, the due diligence report, etc., again, to ensure things are being properly dealt with in the documents. We do tax opinions for really substantial positions where in house folks will often have a preference for a law firm opinion. We do private letter rulings for really substantial positions.

In general the billing rate for law firm tax folks is multiples of the billing rate for accounting folks, and the accounting firms just have a huge number of people along with internally-developed proprietary modeling solutions. So, bottom line, in house folks tend to have the accounting firms do everything they can, with the law firm roles tending to be a bit more targeted.

Again, experiences may vary, this is just my own insight. Would be interested in nealric’s view. I’ll admit that I often have a hard time justifying my own existence in some ways because, at the end of the day, without the cartel limitations accounting firms could completely wipe out law firms’ tax practices. But as it stands we do tend to have fairly distinct roles.

[Anonymous User]

Just wanted to add that some big4 groups have dedicated tax controversy groups outside of WNT (both in fed and SALT) that do private letter rulings, audit defense, voluntary disclosure agreements, etc., which had exits into biglaw or biglaw-ish firms and inhouse tax counsel in my experience.