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Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:23 pm
by Anonymous User
I know, I know - Jones Day pays under market.
But -
These are my only 2 options right now, and there are several factors that feel like they're kind of swaying me towards JD:
1. Felt like I really vibed with everyone I met from the office, and could see myself fitting in well. I know JD has a reputation for being Trump-y, but I did not get those vibes from the New York office at all. Everyone seemed pretty chill, and when I went back for a second look, the additional associates I talked to all seemed to affirm they feel like they have decent work/life balance, e.g. don't pull too many crazy nights a week and felt comfortable taking vacations even in their 1st year. On the other hand, while I also got along really well with one of the partners at H&K, I felt more neutral about the others I met I guess? Nothing bad though, just felt a bit more...formal? If that makes sense?
2. I'm litigation leaning, and JD seems better for this than H&K - Chambers has JD's commercial litigation ranked in Band 2, and H&K's litigation department in NY isn't ranked
3. Prestige - I don't care about prestige for prestige's own sake, but I'm wondering if this might matter for exit opportunities down the line. I'm interested in potentially trying to become an AUSA, and I'm not sure if going to a more "prestigious" firm would help with that
On the other hand:
1. H&K pays market (at least in their NY office), which is big, and
2. Whether justified or not, I wonder if the Trump-y associations people have with JD (despite the NY office being different from DC) might be a hindrance in some way for exit opportunities
Other miscellaneous considerations:
- Potentially looking to move to Boston down the road, and being at a firm that's geographically flexible about switching offices is a plus
- Work life balance is very important to me, and probably trumps a lot of other factors, if compensation is relatively similar
I know that everyone you talk to during the interview/offer process is marketing the firm to you, but I can't seem to get rid of the feeling that the overall vibe check was better at JD. Any thoughts/insights into either of these firms (specifically the NY offices) would be much appreciated
Re: Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:42 pm
by Anonymous User
Not OP but curious if the recent NYT hit piece will affect the firm BATL and Corporate clients. N denying that NYT was going in for the kill there lol
Re: Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:27 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:23 pm
I know, I know - Jones Day pays under market.
But -
These are my only 2 options right now, and there are several factors that feel like they're kind of swaying me towards JD:
1. Felt like I really vibed with everyone I met from the office, and could see myself fitting in well. I know JD has a reputation for being Trump-y, but I did not get those vibes from the New York office at all. Everyone seemed pretty chill, and when I went back for a second look, the additional associates I talked to all seemed to affirm they feel like they have decent work/life balance, e.g. don't pull too many crazy nights a week and felt comfortable taking vacations even in their 1st year. On the other hand, while I also got along really well with one of the partners at H&K, I felt more neutral about the others I met I guess? Nothing bad though, just felt a bit more...formal? If that makes sense?
2. I'm litigation leaning, and JD seems better for this than H&K - Chambers has JD's commercial litigation ranked in Band 2, and H&K's litigation department in NY isn't ranked
3. Prestige - I don't care about prestige for prestige's own sake, but I'm wondering if this might matter for exit opportunities down the line. I'm interested in potentially trying to become an AUSA, and I'm not sure if going to a more "prestigious" firm would help with that
On the other hand:
1. H&K pays market (at least in their NY office), which is big, and
2. Whether justified or not, I wonder if the Trump-y associations people have with JD (despite the NY office being different from DC) might be a hindrance in some way for exit opportunities
Other miscellaneous considerations:
- Potentially looking to move to Boston down the road, and being at a firm that's geographically flexible about switching offices is a plus
- Work life balance is very important to me, and probably trumps a lot of other factors, if compensation is relatively similar
I know that everyone you talk to during the interview/offer process is marketing the firm to you, but I can't seem to get rid of the feeling that the overall vibe check was better at JD. Any thoughts/insights into either of these firms (specifically the NY offices) would be much appreciated
The NY Jones Day office is very, very liberal (I'd say on par with other biglaw firms in NYC)
Re: Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:43 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:23 pm
I know, I know - Jones Day pays under market.
But -
These are my only 2 options right now, and there are several factors that feel like they're kind of swaying me towards JD:
1. Felt like I really vibed with everyone I met from the office, and could see myself fitting in well. I know JD has a reputation for being Trump-y, but I did not get those vibes from the New York office at all. Everyone seemed pretty chill, and when I went back for a second look, the additional associates I talked to all seemed to affirm they feel like they have decent work/life balance, e.g. don't pull too many crazy nights a week and felt comfortable taking vacations even in their 1st year. On the other hand, while I also got along really well with one of the partners at H&K, I felt more neutral about the others I met I guess? Nothing bad though, just felt a bit more...formal? If that makes sense?
2. I'm litigation leaning, and JD seems better for this than H&K - Chambers has JD's commercial litigation ranked in Band 2, and H&K's litigation department in NY isn't ranked
3. Prestige - I don't care about prestige for prestige's own sake, but I'm wondering if this might matter for exit opportunities down the line. I'm interested in potentially trying to become an AUSA, and I'm not sure if going to a more "prestigious" firm would help with that
On the other hand:
1. H&K pays market (at least in their NY office), which is big, and
2. Whether justified or not, I wonder if the Trump-y associations people have with JD (despite the NY office being different from DC) might be a hindrance in some way for exit opportunities
Other miscellaneous considerations:
- Potentially looking to move to Boston down the road, and being at a firm that's geographically flexible about switching offices is a plus
- Work life balance is very important to me, and probably trumps a lot of other factors, if compensation is relatively similar
I know that everyone you talk to during the interview/offer process is marketing the firm to you, but I can't seem to get rid of the feeling that the overall vibe check was better at JD. Any thoughts/insights into either of these firms (specifically the NY offices) would be much appreciated
The NY Jones Day office is very, very liberal (I'd say on par with other biglaw firms in NYC)
Current associate?
Re: Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:25 pm
by Anonymous User
If you aren't politically conservative, then don't go to Jones Day. You won't be able to live with yourself.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/25/maga ... trump.html
Re: Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:51 am
by Anonymous User
OP here - not politically conservative at all. But I guess from an ethical perspective, I'm not sure if I feel that working for JD over any other big law firm is really that much ethically worse - I feel like most big law firms are pretty questionable tbh, e.g. Skadden representing clients with close ties to Putin. That's not to say I love that, but I guess that working for big law at all to me feels a bit like "pick your poison" - Especially if the NY office isn't the one that's super Trump-y
Re: Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:12 am
by 2013
Both have decent sized Boston offices.
Re: Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 10:06 am
by Anonymous User
Anecdotally, when I interviewed at JD, the associates were visibly progressive. Like progressive quotes on their desk ("law is oppressive?"), and the probono discussions were largely progressive focused.
Re: Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 10:21 am
by Anonymous User
JD is a better firm than HK, and while HK is market now I wouldn't rely on them staying market by the time the difference would actually matter. I would never recommend going to JD over a peer firm but HK isn't.
Also JD is not trumpy, that's a meme. If you're a commie, don't go to biglaw. Every firm will take cases you don't like.
Re: Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 10:34 am
by Anonymous User
Yeah virtually everyone at Jones Day NY (and every non-DC office) is liberal/progressive. Jones Day DC is also mostly liberal, the only difference being it has a number of powerful conservative partners.
Re: Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:03 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:43 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:23 pm
I know, I know - Jones Day pays under market.
But -
These are my only 2 options right now, and there are several factors that feel like they're kind of swaying me towards JD:
1. Felt like I really vibed with everyone I met from the office, and could see myself fitting in well. I know JD has a reputation for being Trump-y, but I did not get those vibes from the New York office at all. Everyone seemed pretty chill, and when I went back for a second look, the additional associates I talked to all seemed to affirm they feel like they have decent work/life balance, e.g. don't pull too many crazy nights a week and felt comfortable taking vacations even in their 1st year. On the other hand, while I also got along really well with one of the partners at H&K, I felt more neutral about the others I met I guess? Nothing bad though, just felt a bit more...formal? If that makes sense?
2. I'm litigation leaning, and JD seems better for this than H&K - Chambers has JD's commercial litigation ranked in Band 2, and H&K's litigation department in NY isn't ranked
3. Prestige - I don't care about prestige for prestige's own sake, but I'm wondering if this might matter for exit opportunities down the line. I'm interested in potentially trying to become an AUSA, and I'm not sure if going to a more "prestigious" firm would help with that
On the other hand:
1. H&K pays market (at least in their NY office), which is big, and
2. Whether justified or not, I wonder if the Trump-y associations people have with JD (despite the NY office being different from DC) might be a hindrance in some way for exit opportunities
Other miscellaneous considerations:
- Potentially looking to move to Boston down the road, and being at a firm that's geographically flexible about switching offices is a plus
- Work life balance is very important to me, and probably trumps a lot of other factors, if compensation is relatively similar
I know that everyone you talk to during the interview/offer process is marketing the firm to you, but I can't seem to get rid of the feeling that the overall vibe check was better at JD. Any thoughts/insights into either of these firms (specifically the NY offices) would be much appreciated
The NY Jones Day office is very, very liberal (I'd say on par with other biglaw firms in NYC)
Current associate?
Associate in another JD office
Re: Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 12:07 pm
by 2013
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 10:21 am
JD is a better firm than HK, and while HK is market now I wouldn't rely on them staying market by the time the difference would actually matter. I would never recommend going to JD over a peer firm but HK isn't.
Also JD is not trumpy, that's a meme. If you're a commie, don't go to biglaw. Every firm will take cases you don't like.
H&K is full Cravath scale for salary.
Re: Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:11 pm
by Anonymous User
hijacking a bit here but thoughts on Crowell DC vs Jones Day DC? Interest in lit/regulatory? My sense is Crowell has a strong rep in DC so exit options, which I'm most concerned with, is probably going to be equal? At the same time, JD has more of a name brand globally. I've peeped on Fishbowl and my understanding is that the two cultures could not be more different (Crowell = happy, progressive, DEI emphasis) while Jones Day is more white shoe.
Re: Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:32 pm
by Anonymous User
2013 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 12:07 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 10:21 am
JD is a better firm than HK, and while HK is market now I wouldn't rely on them staying market by the time the difference would actually matter. I would never recommend going to JD over a peer firm but HK isn't.
Also JD is not trumpy, that's a meme. If you're a commie, don't go to biglaw. Every firm will take cases you don't like.
H&K is full Cravath scale for salary.
1. For salary but not bonus, which is black box. Unclear that total compensation is better than JD.
https://abovethelaw.com/2022/02/holland ... uses-2021/
2. They also only went market very recently in the boom economy. Once the economy cools and firms like Kirkland are no longer poaching their midlevels, it's highly likely they will not match the next round of raises.
3. Plus they slashed salaries in the early pandemic.
https://abovethelaw.com/2020/05/holland-knight-cuts/
Re: Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:07 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:11 pm
hijacking a bit here but thoughts on Crowell DC vs Jones Day DC? Interest in lit/regulatory? My sense is Crowell has a strong rep in DC so exit options, which I'm most concerned with, is probably going to be equal? At the same time, JD has more of a name brand globally. I've peeped on Fishbowl and my understanding is that the two cultures could not be more different (Crowell = happy, progressive, DEI emphasis) while Jones Day is more white shoe.
Both are pleasant and collegial. Jones Day DC is more formal and white shoe, Crowell is more laid back.
Re: Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:11 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:07 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:11 pm
hijacking a bit here but thoughts on Crowell DC vs Jones Day DC? Interest in lit/regulatory? My sense is Crowell has a strong rep in DC so exit options, which I'm most concerned with, is probably going to be equal? At the same time, JD has more of a name brand globally. I've peeped on Fishbowl and my understanding is that the two cultures could not be more different (Crowell = happy, progressive, DEI emphasis) while Jones Day is more white shoe.
Both are pleasant and collegial. Jones Day DC is more formal and white shoe, Crowell is more laid back.
Is your sense that there isn't that large of a "prestige" or "exit app" gap in DC to favor one over the other?
Re: Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:12 pm
by Anonymous User
Hey guys, OP here - thanks for all of your thoughts, lots to consider. I just got another offer from Mintz in Boston, and now am feeling even more confused about what direction to go in. Between JD and HK, I feel like I’m hedging JD, but between JD and Mintz it feels less clear. Boston is where I might be trying to end up in a few years for SO related reasons, and I like the city a lot - but I’m not sure if that’s reason enough to choose Mintz over JD since this prestige gap is pretty wide. I really liked everyone I talked to at Mintz though, super great group of people. I’m just feeling conflicted about (A) whether turning down early career prestige might impact exit options, and (B) on the other hand, whether it’s dumb to turn down a Boston firm if Boston is where I might want to be in a few years. Then again, I’m not sure if Boston is where I want to be for next summer specifically - but I do like the city and I’m not opposed to it. Would turning down a Boston firm burn my geographic bridges in some way? Would this prevent me from trying to lateral to them if I decide later that the prestige isn’t worth it? Also in consideration is the fact that JD does have a Boston office, so I’m not sure if that evens things out a bit. Any thoughts appreciated
Re: Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 4:17 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:11 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:07 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:11 pm
hijacking a bit here but thoughts on Crowell DC vs Jones Day DC? Interest in lit/regulatory? My sense is Crowell has a strong rep in DC so exit options, which I'm most concerned with, is probably going to be equal? At the same time, JD has more of a name brand globally. I've peeped on Fishbowl and my understanding is that the two cultures could not be more different (Crowell = happy, progressive, DEI emphasis) while Jones Day is more white shoe.
Both are pleasant and collegial. Jones Day DC is more formal and white shoe, Crowell is more laid back.
Is your sense that there isn't that large of a "prestige" or "exit app" gap in DC to favor one over the other?
I guess it depends on what you consider large. Jones Day DC is more prestigious. Does it matter? What are you trying to do?
Re: Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 6:29 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 4:17 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:11 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:07 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:11 pm
hijacking a bit here but thoughts on Crowell DC vs Jones Day DC? Interest in lit/regulatory? My sense is Crowell has a strong rep in DC so exit options, which I'm most concerned with, is probably going to be equal? At the same time, JD has more of a name brand globally. I've peeped on Fishbowl and my understanding is that the two cultures could not be more different (Crowell = happy, progressive, DEI emphasis) while Jones Day is more white shoe.
Both are pleasant and collegial. Jones Day DC is more formal and white shoe, Crowell is more laid back.
Is your sense that there isn't that large of a "prestige" or "exit app" gap in DC to favor one over the other?
I guess it depends on what you consider large. Jones Day DC is more prestigious. Does it matter? What are you trying to do?
Not OP but I wonder if JD DC practices outside of I&A are prestigious in terms of getting gov positions. Or is that now how gov positions work
Re: Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 7:09 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 6:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 4:17 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:11 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:07 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:11 pm
hijacking a bit here but thoughts on Crowell DC vs Jones Day DC? Interest in lit/regulatory? My sense is Crowell has a strong rep in DC so exit options, which I'm most concerned with, is probably going to be equal? At the same time, JD has more of a name brand globally. I've peeped on Fishbowl and my understanding is that the two cultures could not be more different (Crowell = happy, progressive, DEI emphasis) while Jones Day is more white shoe.
Both are pleasant and collegial. Jones Day DC is more formal and white shoe, Crowell is more laid back.
Is your sense that there isn't that large of a "prestige" or "exit app" gap in DC to favor one over the other?
I guess it depends on what you consider large. Jones Day DC is more prestigious. Does it matter? What are you trying to do?
Not OP but I wonder if JD DC practices outside of I&A are prestigious in terms of getting gov positions. Or is that now how gov positions work
Gov reg also feeds heavily into government. It has fewer SCOTUS clerks but it's more directly involved in the firm's political law practice. Outside of that, various other practice groups place people, just not as frequently. This is probably because the hires many outgoing government lawyers.
Re: Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 9:26 pm
by Anonymous User
I'm thinking more that practice group, but it feels like once you set Issues and Appeals aside, there's not that big of a gap between the regulatory practices?
Re: Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:33 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 9:26 pm
I'm thinking more that practice group, but it feels like once you set Issues and Appeals aside, there's not that big of a gap between the regulatory practices?
I think that's right. All have former government folks that can recommend their best associates.
Re: Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY)
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2022 7:17 am
by 2013
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:12 pm
Hey guys, OP here - thanks for all of your thoughts, lots to consider. I just got another offer from Mintz in Boston, and now am feeling even more confused about what direction to go in. Between JD and HK, I feel like I’m hedging JD, but between JD and Mintz it feels less clear. Boston is where I might be trying to end up in a few years for SO related reasons, and I like the city a lot - but I’m not sure if that’s reason enough to choose Mintz over JD since this prestige gap is pretty wide. I really liked everyone I talked to at Mintz though, super great group of people. I’m just feeling conflicted about (A) whether turning down early career prestige might impact exit options, and (B) on the other hand, whether it’s dumb to turn down a Boston firm if Boston is where I might want to be in a few years. Then again, I’m not sure if Boston is where I want to be for next summer specifically - but I do like the city and I’m not opposed to it. Would turning down a Boston firm burn my geographic bridges in some way? Would this prevent me from trying to lateral to them if I decide later that the prestige isn’t worth it? Also in consideration is the fact that JD does have a Boston office, so I’m not sure if that evens things out a bit. Any thoughts appreciated
Don’t go to Mintz unless you’re 100% sure you’ll end up in Boston in a few years. JD will give you more geographic flexibility if your SO has to go elsewhere because it has more offices.