[2L] STB or Kirkland or Cooley or Cleary or Milbank or Debevoise or WilmerHale or Sidley? Forum

[Anonymous User]

is there a clear favorite here? anyone want to take a stab at ranking these or separating them into tiers?

i am relatively undecided and I feel like I would like lit more, but I am not in the business of drawing strict practice area lines...i do seek a bit of generalism/flexibility early on. all of these are in NY except Cooley in NorCal. there are things I like about the culture/practice @ all these firms. it's tough.

should i just go with my gut and pick the one I vibe with the most, people-wise? or is there a clear, tangible prestige factor that should be more decisive? i am quite wary of using a vibe-test after meeting a handful of attorneys who are all in recruitment mode.

i honestly didn't know anything about BigLaw going into OCI so thank you for your help!

[Anonymous User]

lol

[Anonymous User]

is there a clear favorite here? anyone want to take a stab at ranking these or separating them into tiers?

i am relatively undecided and I feel like I would like lit more, but I am not in the business of drawing strict practice area lines...i do seek a bit of generalism/flexibility early on. all of these are in NY except Cooley in NorCal. there are things I like about the culture/practice @ all these firms. it's tough.

should i just go with my gut and pick the one I vibe with the most, people-wise? or is there a clear, tangible prestige factor that should be more decisive? i am quite wary of using a vibe-test after meeting a handful of attorneys who are all in recruitment mode.

i honestly didn't know anything about BigLaw going into OCI so thank you for your help!

Unless there's a clear reason to be in California, drop Cooley.

STB is great if you want corp. Less great if you want lit (though if you'd be interested in securities they're strong). They do have a totally unsiloed summer, so that's definitely a plus if you're undecided.

Kirkland NY lit isn't as strong as peer firms. If your offer is for corp/rx, it's a very strong call, but if it's for lit I would avoid.

Cleary lit is strong, and if you have an interest in white collar or international work it's very strong. Definitely an interesting call.

Deb is the same as Cleary (though I think their mainline lit may be a touch better iirc)

Milbank lit is solidly fine, but I don't think it's better than Cleary or Deb.

WilmerHale is probably the best place to be a litigator on this list, because lit is really the core driver of the firm. However, their corp presence is still really being built out, so I'm unsure if it is the best if you're not entirely lit-focused. That said, I'd probably pick it over the rest of your options except maybe Cleary.

Sidley has a lit team in NY, but they aren't as major to the firm as their corporate presence. I would cut.

All in all, I would go with whichever you like most of Wilmer, Deb, or Cleary. The others aren't bad options, just a touch behind those three.

[Anonymous User]

If you're a litigator's litigator, then Wilmer or Debevoise.

[Pneumonia]

Yeah you’re gonna need to narrow it down to, say, no more than 3 firms. As written this just looks like bragging. If you have general questions about how to choose a firm or a practice, feel free to ask those. But it is very hard to give a useful response to the question you posed (although I commend the earlier poster for trying).

[Anonymous User]

Yeah you’re gonna need to narrow it down to, say, no more than 3 firms. As written this just looks like bragging. If you have general questions about how to choose a firm or a practice, feel free to ask those. But it is very hard to give a useful response to the question you posed (although I commend the earlier poster for trying).

fair enough i just had zero context to narrow it down to 3 myself other than what u can get from vault which i take with a grain of salt...the ppl who have answered r actually being super helpful. ngl i have no real incentive to brag anonymously to a bunch of anons...but i appreciate the vibe check x...i know neutral practicing attorneys browse this site so maybe they have insight other don't

i didn't know shit abt any of these firms going in and a lot of what u read online or hear in these interviews is marketing speak...all these firms have quality work and good clients and things abt their "culture" to sell you on so im just trying to find a way to differentiate other than "this one is #9 and this one is #17"

fair enough if these types of questions seem toxic but tbh the title of the thread is p self-explanatory so ppl don't have to click if they don't want to

[Anonymous User]

is there a clear favorite here? anyone want to take a stab at ranking these or separating them into tiers?

i am relatively undecided and I feel like I would like lit more, but I am not in the business of drawing strict practice area lines...i do seek a bit of generalism/flexibility early on. all of these are in NY except Cooley in NorCal. there are things I like about the culture/practice @ all these firms. it's tough.

should i just go with my gut and pick the one I vibe with the most, people-wise? or is there a clear, tangible prestige factor that should be more decisive? i am quite wary of using a vibe-test after meeting a handful of attorneys who are all in recruitment mode.

i honestly didn't know anything about BigLaw going into OCI so thank you for your help!

Unless there's a clear reason to be in California, drop Cooley.

STB is great if you want corp. Less great if you want lit (though if you'd be interested in securities they're strong). They do have a totally unsiloed summer, so that's definitely a plus if you're undecided.

Kirkland NY lit isn't as strong as peer firms. If your offer is for corp/rx, it's a very strong call, but if it's for lit I would avoid.

Cleary lit is strong, and if you have an interest in white collar or international work it's very strong. Definitely an interesting call.

Deb is the same as Cleary (though I think their mainline lit may be a touch better iirc)

Milbank lit is solidly fine, but I don't think it's better than Cleary or Deb.

WilmerHale is probably the best place to be a litigator on this list, because lit is really the core driver of the firm. However, their corp presence is still really being built out, so I'm unsure if it is the best if you're not entirely lit-focused. That said, I'd probably pick it over the rest of your options except maybe Cleary.

Sidley has a lit team in NY, but they aren't as major to the firm as their corporate presence. I would cut.

All in all, I would go with whichever you like most of Wilmer, Deb, or Cleary. The others aren't bad options, just a touch behind those three.

thank you legend <3

[Anonymous User]

Yeah you’re gonna need to narrow it down to, say, no more than 3 firms. As written this just looks like bragging. If you have general questions about how to choose a firm or a practice, feel free to ask those. But it is very hard to give a useful response to the question you posed (although I commend the earlier poster for trying).

fair enough i just had zero context to narrow it down to 3 myself other than what u can get from vault which i take with a grain of salt...the ppl who have answered r actually being super helpful. ngl i have no real incentive to brag anonymously to a bunch of anons...but i appreciate the vibe check x...i know neutral practicing attorneys browse this site so maybe they have insight other don't

i didn't know shit abt any of these firms going in and a lot of what u read online or hear in these interviews is marketing speak...all these firms have quality work and good clients and things abt their "culture" to sell you on so im just trying to find a way to differentiate other than "this one is #9 and this one is #17"

fair enough if these types of questions seem toxic but tbh the title of the thread is p self-explanatory so ppl don't have to click if they don't want to

clearly a troll, and aping something annoying and worthy of being made fun of (all of the X vs Y vs Z especially when they are clearly very different...)

how could this person get all these offers if they didn't know anything about these firms

[Anonymous User]

[/quote]

how could this person get all these offers if they didn't know anything about these firms
[/quote]

well i mean i read their website/chambers associate and the partner bios but that stuff all sounds the same after a bit no? it's like bro we get it you do "bet the company" litigation join the club lmaooooooo

but fr short answer is knowing enough to talk abt them but not enough to make a qualitative decision b/w them if that makes sense...i honestly didn't know what corporate law was until last week (i mean i had heard of it) so it's hard to make a good call without context and knowing what to look out for when making a decision...but yeah was kinda surprised by the offers too ngl x

[Anonymous User]

Really don't understand the constant TLS echo chamber on KE NY lit somehow being materially weaker than peer firms. It's on par with all of the other firms on this list. Not stronger, certainly, and maybe just a titch weaker, but not by much. But this person is undecided between lit and corp. KE's corp practice is stronger than the corp practice of the firms that have the good lit practices in this list. The RX practice (which is about as close as you can get to a mix of lit and corp these days) is obviously KE RX. OP, you really should give KE strong consideration here. And its reputation as a sweatshop isn't really deserved--it is a sweatshop, to be clear, but so is every other NY biglaw firm, and it's really not worse than its peers.

[Anonymous User]

If you're a litigator's litigator, then Wilmer or Debevoise.

+1. I know you asked about the vibe test - I liked the WH vibe during OCI and picked it in part for that reason. I happen to think it holds true now, but I have colleagues at the firm who feel differently so YMMV. If you are sure you want to do litigation, I'd say go with WH. The trial practice group is top notch and has some actually meaningful training for associates. If you want to go to trial, you will here for sure (especially if you're open to taking on some IP lit). If you think you might want corporate, I'd say go with Debbie. WH has a strong transactional practice, don't get me wrong, but I think Deb has a better rep.

[Anonymous User]

If you're 60-70% sure you want to do litigation but am still open to corporate, go to Cleary as it offers the best balance of the two (though corporate is still stronger) and flexibility. If you're more than 70% certain, go with Deb/WH.

[Anonymous User]

Really don't understand the constant TLS echo chamber on KE NY lit somehow being materially weaker than peer firms. It's on par with all of the other firms on this list. Not stronger, certainly, and maybe just a titch weaker, but not by much. But this person is undecided between lit and corp. KE's corp practice is stronger than the corp practice of the firms that have the good lit practices in this list. The RX practice (which is about as close as you can get to a mix of lit and corp these days) is obviously KE RX. OP, you really should give KE strong consideration here. And its reputation as a sweatshop isn't really deserved--it is a sweatshop, to be clear, but so is every other NY biglaw firm, and it's really not worse than its peers.

this is not specific to KE lit, but for KE generally - a lot of us have worked across from Kirkland, and while there are very good lawyers there, there are also absolutely trash ones. the quality from matter to matter - or even the same matter - varies wildly

you could be working across from (frequently, when I check the website) laterals that do very good work. or you could be working across from associates that, based on the work product you receive, may not be literate

it's a 3000 person firm that's grown a ton in the past 5-10 years. sometimes you get the A team, sometimes you get the B team.

[Anonymous User]

Really don't understand the constant TLS echo chamber on KE NY lit somehow being materially weaker than peer firms. It's on par with all of the other firms on this list. Not stronger, certainly, and maybe just a titch weaker, but not by much. But this person is undecided between lit and corp. KE's corp practice is stronger than the corp practice of the firms that have the good lit practices in this list. The RX practice (which is about as close as you can get to a mix of lit and corp these days) is obviously KE RX. OP, you really should give KE strong consideration here. And its reputation as a sweatshop isn't really deserved--it is a sweatshop, to be clear, but so is every other NY biglaw firm, and it's really not worse than its peers.

this is not specific to KE lit, but for KE generally - a lot of us have worked across from Kirkland, and while there are very good lawyers there, there are also absolutely trash ones. the quality from matter to matter - or even the same matter - varies wildly

you could be working across from (frequently, when I check the website) laterals that do very good work. or you could be working across from associates that, based on the work product you receive, may not be literate

it's a 3000 person firm that's grown a ton in the past 5-10 years. sometimes you get the A team, sometimes you get the B team.

This! It also applies to a number of other firms that have expanded a ton: Goodwin, Fenwick, Cooley, Gunderson.

It’s hit or miss

Also, OP, I worked at WH before. The corporate group does a lot more start-up work. The corporate partners are really nice there. I particularly liked working with CBB.

[Anonymous User]

Really don't understand the constant TLS echo chamber on KE NY lit somehow being materially weaker than peer firms. It's on par with all of the other firms on this list. Not stronger, certainly, and maybe just a titch weaker, but not by much. But this person is undecided between lit and corp. KE's corp practice is stronger than the corp practice of the firms that have the good lit practices in this list. The RX practice (which is about as close as you can get to a mix of lit and corp these days) is obviously KE RX. OP, you really should give KE strong consideration here. And its reputation as a sweatshop isn't really deserved--it is a sweatshop, to be clear, but so is every other NY biglaw firm, and it's really not worse than its peers.

this is not specific to KE lit, but for KE generally - a lot of us have worked across from Kirkland, and while there are very good lawyers there, there are also absolutely trash ones. the quality from matter to matter - or even the same matter - varies wildly

you could be working across from (frequently, when I check the website) laterals that do very good work. or you could be working across from associates that, based on the work product you receive, may not be literate

it's a 3000 person firm that's grown a ton in the past 5-10 years. sometimes you get the A team, sometimes you get the B team.

This! It also applies to a number of other firms that have expanded a ton: Goodwin, Fenwick, Cooley, Gunderson.

It’s hit or miss

Also, OP, I worked at WH before. The corporate group does a lot more start-up work. The corporate partners are really nice there. I particularly liked working with CBB.

Out of curiosity, does that mean it's better to start w/ a firm that hasn't grown as much and then lateral over? Like, for example, does it make more sense to start as a litigator at like DPW/S&C? Have to make a similar call to this lol.

[Anonymous User]

On the chance this is not a troll thread, my choice would be “pick the one I vibe with the most, people-wise”. They all pay the same and you’re not likely to be there more than five years, if that, so you might as well go where you like the people.

[Anonymous User]

Really don't understand the constant TLS echo chamber on KE NY lit somehow being materially weaker than peer firms. It's on par with all of the other firms on this list. Not stronger, certainly, and maybe just a titch weaker, but not by much. But this person is undecided between lit and corp. KE's corp practice is stronger than the corp practice of the firms that have the good lit practices in this list. The RX practice (which is about as close as you can get to a mix of lit and corp these days) is obviously KE RX. OP, you really should give KE strong consideration here. And its reputation as a sweatshop isn't really deserved--it is a sweatshop, to be clear, but so is every other NY biglaw firm, and it's really not worse than its peers.

this is not specific to KE lit, but for KE generally - a lot of us have worked across from Kirkland, and while there are very good lawyers there, there are also absolutely trash ones. the quality from matter to matter - or even the same matter - varies wildly

you could be working across from (frequently, when I check the website) laterals that do very good work. or you could be working across from associates that, based on the work product you receive, may not be literate

it's a 3000 person firm that's grown a ton in the past 5-10 years. sometimes you get the A team, sometimes you get the B team.

Sure. No doubt about that. But that's true of basically any biglaw firm outside of WLRK and maybe Cravath (can ding their current place in the world all you want but I have never run into a bad team on the other side of the table there). Full disclosure, I am at KE. I'm not trying to be defensive here--I'm not a "rah rah home team" kind of person, job's a job. I'm just saying that I have definitely seen extremely mixed quality on the other side of the table, too.