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How can anyone post this unironically
There really is no evidence that CSM attorneys are working any harder than any other generic V10. If that were the cases, their RPL would be much higher.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Jul 24, 2022 10:46 amWhen choosing firms at this level, I personally wouldn’t consider hours expected to work outside of like WLRK and CSM.
Maybe everyone I know there is an outlier, but everyone I know at CSM works significantly more than their counterparts at peer firms. I also know several people there with whom we’ve discussed this point and i haven’t heard of anyone coasting like you can get away with at other firms for a bit.Sackboy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:24 pmThere really is no evidence that CSM attorneys are working any harder than any other generic V10. If that were the cases, their RPL would be much higher.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Jul 24, 2022 10:46 amWhen choosing firms at this level, I personally wouldn’t consider hours expected to work outside of like WLRK and CSM.
At some point, the math doesn't add up. If CSM charges the same rates as the V10 and has relatively the same RPL, then the hours are going to need to, on average, be the same. I'm also sure CSM coasters aren't interested in making themselves known.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:26 amMaybe everyone I know there is an outlier, but everyone I know at CSM works significantly more than their counterparts at peer firms. I also know several people there with whom we’ve discussed this point and i haven’t heard of anyone coasting like you can get away with at other firms for a bit.Sackboy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:24 pmThere really is no evidence that CSM attorneys are working any harder than any other generic V10. If that were the cases, their RPL would be much higher.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Jul 24, 2022 10:46 amWhen choosing firms at this level, I personally wouldn’t consider hours expected to work outside of like WLRK and CSM.
Spitballing here but I think the discrepancy might be because CSM doesn't hire laterals. By definition they will have fewer seniors, who bill more than juniors. So, if they have similar RPL to other firms that bill at similar rates, the juniors must be working more hours to be as profitable as seniors in other firms.Sackboy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:31 amAt some point, the math doesn't add up. If CSM charges the same rates as the V10 and has relatively the same RPL, then the hours are going to need to, on average, be the same. I'm also sure CSM coasters aren't interested in making themselves known.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:26 amMaybe everyone I know there is an outlier, but everyone I know at CSM works significantly more than their counterparts at peer firms. I also know several people there with whom we’ve discussed this point and i haven’t heard of anyone coasting like you can get away with at other firms for a bit.Sackboy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:24 pmThere really is no evidence that CSM attorneys are working any harder than any other generic V10. If that were the cases, their RPL would be much higher.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Jul 24, 2022 10:46 amWhen choosing firms at this level, I personally wouldn’t consider hours expected to work outside of like WLRK and CSM.
Bingo. RPL = average hours/lawyer * average billing rate. If you're bottom heavy (as you'd need to be, to go from starting classes of ~80 to up or out at year 8 and making up 12 partners), the average billing rate is going to be lower. So it's not surprising that 2022 saw a bit of a jump in Cravath's RPL (28%) after - at least anecdotally - CSM bolstered its "senior attorney" ranks in a significant way.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:54 amSpitballing here but I think the discrepancy might be because CSM doesn't hire laterals. By definition they will have fewer seniors, who bill more than juniors. So, if they have similar RPL to other firms that bill at similar rates, the juniors must be working more hours to be as profitable as seniors in other firms.
The notion that Cravath attorneys are working materially more than any other V10 outside of Wachtell is ludicrous.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:32 pmthis is entirely anecdotal but have heard ex-CSM associates complain bitterly of significant hours discrepancies between among associates, and that being a motivating force for them leaving firm entirely. "I bill 2800+ and XYZ bills 1400, we get paid the same, and nothing happens" etc
have never worked there though
K&E also hires a ton of laterals, so they are probably more mid/senior heavy than peer firms.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 2:47 pmBingo. RPL = average hours/lawyer * average billing rate. If you're bottom heavy (as you'd need to be, to go from starting classes of ~80 to up or out at year 8 and making up 12 partners), the average billing rate is going to be lower. So it's not surprising that 2022 saw a bit of a jump in Cravath's RPL (28%) after - at least anecdotally - CSM bolstered its "senior attorney" ranks in a significant way.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:54 amSpitballing here but I think the discrepancy might be because CSM doesn't hire laterals. By definition they will have fewer seniors, who bill more than juniors. So, if they have similar RPL to other firms that bill at similar rates, the juniors must be working more hours to be as profitable as seniors in other firms.
(It also tracks that K&E's RPL is so high, since calling seventh year associates "partner" justifies a jump in chargeout rate with some clients.)
I'm a recent lateral at Latham and am curious what the corporate mid-levels and senior folks in the bigger offices are billing. There's a good chance I may not even make 1900 this year -- how bad is that?Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Jul 24, 2022 10:46 amLatham junior here, 1900 is the billable hour requirement but your hours will ultimately depend on your group, who you work with, and will still fluctuate depending on the year. You’re expected to be working around the same pace as your group so the firm requirement is less significant. Also the anecdote of one friend working really long hours is never helpful because we all know there is a wide distribution in classes and I know plenty of people at comparable working way worse hours than me.
Last year, corporate groups billed a higher than average amount, believe the average billables was just under 2200 for corporate (note that this includes people billing 1900 and people billing 3000). This year corporate is very slow and everyone is enjoying life.
When choosing firms at this level, I personally wouldn’t consider hours expected to work outside of like WLRK and CSM.