NY Firms No-Offering Forum

[temp69420]

There’s a great blog called Ask a Manager that offers workplace advice (not law specific, but leaning towards office jobs) and one of her consistent themes is being compassionate to screw ups by people new to the world of work because some people genuinely have no idea how to work in an office because it’s never been part of their life previously and they just need the opportunity to learn.

Still wild to me that anyone would think the above is at all appropriate, but I suppose it’s possible (that they were raised to believe it is, I mean, not that it actually IS appropriate).

If the story above is true, those people didn't get no-offered for not knowing what's appropriate in the workplace, they got it for being people that nobody wants to be around. It's not like they were too loud, wore the wrong clothes, or missed a deadline. Nor is it even that they asked a well-intentioned but inappropriate question. This isn't a case of bringing in somebody from the woods and having them be confused about how an office works.

[Anonymous User]

One of them went around saying congratulations to female SA's post Dobbs and the other asked a black share partner if he was a diversity hire.

I always wonder how people like this managed to make it through college and a (presumably) good law school without realizing how bad this activity is

Kids who never were in a normal work environment sometimes lack the awareness of what's not OK at work. Also the 100% offer rate + common online refrain that you need to sexually harass someone to lose your offer has I think shifted the way people act. Maybe this will make me sound like a boomer but I've seen a lot of summers behave inappropriately for a work environment. I guess they'll eventually grow up and once the workload hits they won't have time to act up. But maybe scaring summers isn't so bad.

Not for nothing, but the pandemic and I think particularly zoom law school was devastating to people's ability to socialize and act normally around other people. A lot of people--and perhaps especially law students--spent a really long time alone and on the internet, and that has been difficult to recover from for many people. I see it with people I know, and at work. I have a sibling in law school, and people sound pretty broken still. It's certainly no excuse for this obviously obtuse and flagrantly inappropriate behavior, but it might explain something with some of these rumors about a greater than ususal number of summers behaving poorly this summer.

Yup this is a big part of it too. And to be clear, it's not exclusively right-coded behavior. My alma mater had to shut down the listserv because of incivility by activists. And the there's non ideological stuff like drinking too much or not knowing how to talk to partners. It'll all sort itself out but the way it sorts itself out may result in some cold offers or juniors who don't last long.

[Anonymous User]

There’s a great blog called Ask a Manager that offers workplace advice (not law specific, but leaning towards office jobs) and one of her consistent themes is being compassionate to screw ups by people new to the world of work because some people genuinely have no idea how to work in an office because it’s never been part of their life previously and they just need the opportunity to learn.

Still wild to me that anyone would think the above is at all appropriate, but I suppose it’s possible (that they were raised to believe it is, I mean, not that it actually IS appropriate).

If the story above is true, those people didn't get no-offered for not knowing what's appropriate in the workplace, they got it for being people that nobody wants to be around. It's not like they were too loud, wore the wrong clothes, or missed a deadline. Nor is it even that they asked a well-intentioned but inappropriate question. This isn't a case of bringing in somebody from the woods and having them be confused about how an office works.

It's_the_same_picture.pam

[Anonymous User]

Both definitely deserved it, wild Kirkland managed to have all the stories in one summer tho.

To be fair, we have approximately 18,249,581 summers so statistically speaking there’s pretty good odds that any given story would be from K&E.

[Anonymous User]

Both definitely deserved it, wild Kirkland managed to have all the stories in one summer tho.

To be fair, we have approximately 18,249,581 summers so statistically speaking there’s pretty good odds that any given story would be from K&E.

And yet, the most exciting story was Sidley /JW. A bit disappointed in you guys lol.

[temp69420]

There’s a great blog called Ask a Manager that offers workplace advice (not law specific, but leaning towards office jobs) and one of her consistent themes is being compassionate to screw ups by people new to the world of work because some people genuinely have no idea how to work in an office because it’s never been part of their life previously and they just need the opportunity to learn.

Still wild to me that anyone would think the above is at all appropriate, but I suppose it’s possible (that they were raised to believe it is, I mean, not that it actually IS appropriate).

If the story above is true, those people didn't get no-offered for not knowing what's appropriate in the workplace, they got it for being people that nobody wants to be around. It's not like they were too loud, wore the wrong clothes, or missed a deadline. Nor is it even that they asked a well-intentioned but inappropriate question. This isn't a case of bringing in somebody from the woods and having them be confused about how an office works.

It's_the_same_picture.pam

If you think that behavior is normal and they just need to learn not to do it at work, you must be pretty unpleasant on the weekend.

[Anonymous User]

My 2020 and 2021 summers were absolute superstars in every respect. My 2022 summers keep giving me dogshit work product. They're still somewhat professional.

I think everyone, including me, is getting "health policy" fatigue.

[Anonymous User]

There’s a great blog called Ask a Manager that offers workplace advice (not law specific, but leaning towards office jobs) and one of her consistent themes is being compassionate to screw ups by people new to the world of work because some people genuinely have no idea how to work in an office because it’s never been part of their life previously and they just need the opportunity to learn.

Still wild to me that anyone would think the above is at all appropriate, but I suppose it’s possible (that they were raised to believe it is, I mean, not that it actually IS appropriate).

If the story above is true, those people didn't get no-offered for not knowing what's appropriate in the workplace, they got it for being people that nobody wants to be around. It's not like they were too loud, wore the wrong clothes, or missed a deadline. Nor is it even that they asked a well-intentioned but inappropriate question. This isn't a case of bringing in somebody from the woods and having them be confused about how an office works.

It's_the_same_picture.pam

If you think that behavior is normal and they just need to learn not to do it at work, you must be pretty unpleasant on the weekend.

Where did I say it's normal? It's weird and antisocial. But, I don't think it means those people are irredeemable humans. They just need to learn how to behave. I'm not sure why this obsession with "ppl no one wants to be around" or getting personal towards me is useful to the discussion. Tbh, it's kind of antisocial behavior on your part. In real life, people try to be kind and help people learn.

[Anonymous User]

There’s a great blog called Ask a Manager that offers workplace advice (not law specific, but leaning towards office jobs) and one of her consistent themes is being compassionate to screw ups by people new to the world of work because some people genuinely have no idea how to work in an office because it’s never been part of their life previously and they just need the opportunity to learn.

Still wild to me that anyone would think the above is at all appropriate, but I suppose it’s possible (that they were raised to believe it is, I mean, not that it actually IS appropriate).

If the story above is true, those people didn't get no-offered for not knowing what's appropriate in the workplace, they got it for being people that nobody wants to be around. It's not like they were too loud, wore the wrong clothes, or missed a deadline. Nor is it even that they asked a well-intentioned but inappropriate question. This isn't a case of bringing in somebody from the woods and having them be confused about how an office works.

I absolutely don’t think that anything they did was acceptable and it’s not at all the same in terms of egregiousness as being too loud or wearing the wrong clothes (but I wouldn’t ding someone for those to start with). But there are plenty of people who think the way those comments indicate (Dobbs is great, Black attorneys must be diversity hires) who manage to have jobs and work with those who think differently. Part of the “not knowing how to negotiate the work world” thing is assuming everyone shares your world view, and acting on that assumption.

So my point wasn’t that their beliefs were no worse than not knowing the right clothes to wear, but that this could be part of being unfamiliar with the work world. Some newbies don’t get that punctuality is a thing that matters, other newbies maybe don’t get that not everyone agrees with their political beliefs.

Or they’re not new the work world and this has nothing to do with assumptions, they’re just assholes. That’s entirely likely. I was just following up on the “kids don’t know what’s appropriate at work” comments.

[Anonymous User]

My 2020 and 2021 summers were absolute superstars in every respect. My 2022 summers keep giving me dogshit work product. They're still somewhat professional.

I think everyone, including me, is getting "health policy" fatigue.

In terms of work product, wonder how much is simply a numbers game? Summer 22 is the biggest year in recent memory. By definition there was reach into lower qualifications.

[Anonymous User]

There’s a great blog called Ask a Manager that offers workplace advice (not law specific, but leaning towards office jobs) and one of her consistent themes is being compassionate to screw ups by people new to the world of work because some people genuinely have no idea how to work in an office because it’s never been part of their life previously and they just need the opportunity to learn.

Still wild to me that anyone would think the above is at all appropriate, but I suppose it’s possible (that they were raised to believe it is, I mean, not that it actually IS appropriate).

If the story above is true, those people didn't get no-offered for not knowing what's appropriate in the workplace, they got it for being people that nobody wants to be around. It's not like they were too loud, wore the wrong clothes, or missed a deadline. Nor is it even that they asked a well-intentioned but inappropriate question. This isn't a case of bringing in somebody from the woods and having them be confused about how an office works.

I absolutely don’t think that anything they did was acceptable and it’s not at all the same in terms of egregiousness as being too loud or wearing the wrong clothes (but I wouldn’t ding someone for those to start with). But there are plenty of people who think the way those comments indicate (Dobbs is great, Black attorneys must be diversity hires) who manage to have jobs and work with those who think differently. Part of the “not knowing how to negotiate the work world” thing is assuming everyone shares your world view, and acting on that assumption.

So my point wasn’t that their beliefs were no worse than not knowing the right clothes to wear, but that this could be part of being unfamiliar with the work world. Some newbies don’t get that punctuality is a thing that matters, other newbies maybe don’t get that not everyone agrees with their political beliefs.

Or they’re not new the work world and this has nothing to do with assumptions, they’re just assholes. That’s entirely likely. I was just following up on the “kids don’t know what’s appropriate at work” comments.

"Black attorneys must be diversity hires" is not a political belief.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

There’s a great blog called Ask a Manager that offers workplace advice (not law specific, but leaning towards office jobs) and one of her consistent themes is being compassionate to screw ups by people new to the world of work because some people genuinely have no idea how to work in an office because it’s never been part of their life previously and they just need the opportunity to learn.

Still wild to me that anyone would think the above is at all appropriate, but I suppose it’s possible (that they were raised to believe it is, I mean, not that it actually IS appropriate).

If the story above is true, those people didn't get no-offered for not knowing what's appropriate in the workplace, they got it for being people that nobody wants to be around. It's not like they were too loud, wore the wrong clothes, or missed a deadline. Nor is it even that they asked a well-intentioned but inappropriate question. This isn't a case of bringing in somebody from the woods and having them be confused about how an office works.

I absolutely don’t think that anything they did was acceptable and it’s not at all the same in terms of egregiousness as being too loud or wearing the wrong clothes (but I wouldn’t ding someone for those to start with). But there are plenty of people who think the way those comments indicate (Dobbs is great, Black attorneys must be diversity hires) who manage to have jobs and work with those who think differently. Part of the “not knowing how to negotiate the work world” thing is assuming everyone shares your world view, and acting on that assumption.

So my point wasn’t that their beliefs were no worse than not knowing the right clothes to wear, but that this could be part of being unfamiliar with the work world. Some newbies don’t get that punctuality is a thing that matters, other newbies maybe don’t get that not everyone agrees with their political beliefs.

Or they’re not new the work world and this has nothing to do with assumptions, they’re just assholes. That’s entirely likely. I was just following up on the “kids don’t know what’s appropriate at work” comments.

"Black attorneys must be diversity hires" is not a political belief.

The fact that biglaw has affirmative action is not a belief at all — it’s just a fact. The issues I see are: (A) disrespecting and offending a partner to their face and (B) although firms do engage in affirmative action, there’s an unwritten rule to never suggest it resulted in any individual person’s hiring or non-hiring, as the case may be.

[Crazystallion]

Odd Lots podcast on Stitcher, July 21, 2022, if you're a Summer in Mountain View, take what you can now before it all blows up. Very sobering podcast.

[BLPartner]

There’s a great blog called Ask a Manager that offers workplace advice (not law specific, but leaning towards office jobs) and one of her consistent themes is being compassionate to screw ups by people new to the world of work because some people genuinely have no idea how to work in an office because it’s never been part of their life previously and they just need the opportunity to learn.

Still wild to me that anyone would think the above is at all appropriate, but I suppose it’s possible (that they were raised to believe it is, I mean, not that it actually IS appropriate).

If the story above is true, those people didn't get no-offered for not knowing what's appropriate in the workplace, they got it for being people that nobody wants to be around. It's not like they were too loud, wore the wrong clothes, or missed a deadline. Nor is it even that they asked a well-intentioned but inappropriate question. This isn't a case of bringing in somebody from the woods and having them be confused about how an office works.

I absolutely don’t think that anything they did was acceptable and it’s not at all the same in terms of egregiousness as being too loud or wearing the wrong clothes (but I wouldn’t ding someone for those to start with). But there are plenty of people who think the way those comments indicate (Dobbs is great, Black attorneys must be diversity hires) who manage to have jobs and work with those who think differently. Part of the “not knowing how to negotiate the work world” thing is assuming everyone shares your world view, and acting on that assumption.

So my point wasn’t that their beliefs were no worse than not knowing the right clothes to wear, but that this could be part of being unfamiliar with the work world. Some newbies don’t get that punctuality is a thing that matters, other newbies maybe don’t get that not everyone agrees with their political beliefs.

Or they’re not new the work world and this has nothing to do with assumptions, they’re just assholes. That’s entirely likely. I was just following up on the “kids don’t know what’s appropriate at work” comments.

"Black attorneys must be diversity hires" is not a political belief.

The fact that biglaw has affirmative action is not a belief at all — it’s just a fact. The issues I see are: (A) disrespecting and offending a partner to their face and (B) although firms do engage in affirmative action, there’s an unwritten rule to never suggest it resulted in any individual person’s hiring or non-hiring, as the case may be.

That rule is unwritten because anyone that is obtuse enough to disobey it doesn't have a role in a business that is, in part, thinking critically, and in part, connections with other people and sales. Differences in opinion about whether affirmative action is good or bad is a nuanced political issue. Going around questioning whether any particular person is an affirmative action hire is just being a shit person. Even in some kind of hypothetical situation where it was clear that someone is an affirmative action hire in light of the school and grades, it's totally inappropriate to do what poster above said the person was doing. Basic human decency, not "wokeness," is what controls there.

Likewise for walking around saying "congratulations" to people after Dobbs. Seriously? That shouldn't be a cold offer, that should be an immediate firing. That has nothing to do with political beliefs and everything to do with the fact that biglaw is not a preschool to teach people how to be functioning adults. It's a totally inappropriate thing to do even if you know the overwhelming majority of the people you're saying that to share the underlying political belief, setting aside the obvious fact that that is not the case at any biglaw firm and CERTAINLY not at any biglaw firm in its NY office.

I've edited this post a lot because it took me a couple of times to convey my disgust with the idea that these are not immediately fire-able things.

One final edit: I'm also kind of skeptical that this happened. Fair point that the next post made. Feels as unlikely as the original BS story to me.

[Anonymous User]

Everyone is skeptical of the 20 cold offers, yet everyone believes the Dobbs congrats lap and the affirmative action jab of a partner? I don't believe either.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

There’s a great blog called Ask a Manager that offers workplace advice (not law specific, but leaning towards office jobs) and one of her consistent themes is being compassionate to screw ups by people new to the world of work because some people genuinely have no idea how to work in an office because it’s never been part of their life previously and they just need the opportunity to learn.

Still wild to me that anyone would think the above is at all appropriate, but I suppose it’s possible (that they were raised to believe it is, I mean, not that it actually IS appropriate).

If the story above is true, those people didn't get no-offered for not knowing what's appropriate in the workplace, they got it for being people that nobody wants to be around. It's not like they were too loud, wore the wrong clothes, or missed a deadline. Nor is it even that they asked a well-intentioned but inappropriate question. This isn't a case of bringing in somebody from the woods and having them be confused about how an office works.

I absolutely don’t think that anything they did was acceptable and it’s not at all the same in terms of egregiousness as being too loud or wearing the wrong clothes (but I wouldn’t ding someone for those to start with). But there are plenty of people who think the way those comments indicate (Dobbs is great, Black attorneys must be diversity hires) who manage to have jobs and work with those who think differently. Part of the “not knowing how to negotiate the work world” thing is assuming everyone shares your world view, and acting on that assumption.

So my point wasn’t that their beliefs were no worse than not knowing the right clothes to wear, but that this could be part of being unfamiliar with the work world. Some newbies don’t get that punctuality is a thing that matters, other newbies maybe don’t get that not everyone agrees with their political beliefs.

Or they’re not new the work world and this has nothing to do with assumptions, they’re just assholes. That’s entirely likely. I was just following up on the “kids don’t know what’s appropriate at work” comments.

"Black attorneys must be diversity hires" is not a political belief.

The fact that biglaw has affirmative action is not a belief at all — it’s just a fact. The issues I see are: (A) disrespecting and offending a partner to their face and (B) although firms do engage in affirmative action, there’s an unwritten rule to never suggest it resulted in any individual person’s hiring or non-hiring, as the case may be.

That rule is unwritten because anyone that is obtuse enough to disobey it doesn't have a role in a business that is, in part, thinking critically, and in part, connections with other people and sales. Differences in opinion about whether affirmative action is good or bad is a nuanced political issue. Going around questioning whether any particular person is an affirmative action hire is just being a shit person. Even in some kind of hypothetical situation where it was clear that someone is an affirmative action hire in light of the school and grades, it's totally inappropriate to do what poster above said the person was doing. Basic human decency, not "wokeness," is what controls there.

Likewise for walking around saying "congratulations" to people after Dobbs. Seriously? That shouldn't be a cold offer, that should be an immediate firing. That has nothing to do with political beliefs and everything to do with the fact that biglaw is not a preschool to teach people how to be functioning adults. It's a totally inappropriate thing to do even if you know the overwhelming majority of the people you're saying that to share the underlying political belief, setting aside the obvious fact that that is not the case at any biglaw firm and CERTAINLY not at any biglaw firm in its NY office.

I've edited this post a lot because it took me a couple of times to convey my disgust with the idea that these are not immediately fire-able things.

I don’t disagree with you that these should have been no-brainer points. Maybe they were drunk, which is an explanation rather than an excuse or justification. If sober, that was just dumb

[temp69420]

That rule is unwritten because anyone that is obtuse enough to disobey it doesn't have a role in a business that is, in part, thinking critically, and in part, connections with other people and sales. Differences in opinion about whether affirmative action is good or bad is a nuanced political issue. Going around questioning whether any particular person is an affirmative action hire is just being a shit person. Even in some kind of hypothetical situation where it was clear that someone is an affirmative action hire in light of the school and grades, it's totally inappropriate to do what poster above said the person was doing. Basic human decency, not "wokeness," is what controls there.

Likewise for walking around saying "congratulations" to people after Dobbs. Seriously? That shouldn't be a cold offer, that should be an immediate firing. That has nothing to do with political beliefs and everything to do with the fact that biglaw is not a preschool to teach people how to be functioning adults. It's a totally inappropriate thing to do even if you know the overwhelming majority of the people you're saying that to share the underlying political belief, setting aside the obvious fact that that is not the case at any biglaw firm and CERTAINLY not at any biglaw firm in its NY office.

I've edited this post a lot because it took me a couple of times to convey my disgust with the idea that these are not immediately fire-able things.

One final edit: I'm also kind of skeptical that this happened. Fair point that the next post made. Feels as unlikely as the original BS story to me.

Sign on to all of this (including the last bit). An additional point: the (imaginary) guy asking a black partner if they're a diversity hire probably didn't ask a white partner if they got hired because they play lacrosse or their dad is a client (both of which I know examples of). People get hired for all sorts of reasons outside traditional "merit", but if you're only asking the black guy (or a woman, for that matter) how they possibly could have gotten in here, there's something wrong with you.

[Anonymous User]

I absolutely don’t think that anything they did was acceptable and it’s not at all the same in terms of egregiousness as being too loud or wearing the wrong clothes (but I wouldn’t ding someone for those to start with). But there are plenty of people who think the way those comments indicate (Dobbs is great, Black attorneys must be diversity hires) who manage to have jobs and work with those who think differently. Part of the “not knowing how to negotiate the work world” thing is assuming everyone shares your world view, and acting on that assumption.

So my point wasn’t that their beliefs were no worse than not knowing the right clothes to wear, but that this could be part of being unfamiliar with the work world. Some newbies don’t get that punctuality is a thing that matters, other newbies maybe don’t get that not everyone agrees with their political beliefs.

Or they’re not new the work world and this has nothing to do with assumptions, they’re just assholes. That’s entirely likely. I was just following up on the “kids don’t know what’s appropriate at work” comments.

"Black attorneys must be diversity hires" is not a political belief.

Something can be both a political belief and deeply racist. Nothing I've said is intended to justify or excuse either of the statements that were hypothetically made (I agree that it's kind of hard to fathom this is real and that they're fireable statements), and I didn't raise the "kids these days" argument. My comment about the blog being compassionate to those new to full time work was *not* to suggest that anyone should be compassionate to these two yahoos, just wondering to what extent this was a particularly extreme example of not getting how the work world functions, or just pure assholery. The racist/sexist elements are given.

[Anonymous User]

also Summers
Don't discuss Dobbs

Totally fine, as long as you have the firm-approved viewpoint of being vehemently opposed to it — and are actively brainstorming pro bono to advance your viewpoint.

Also totally fine if your gossiping about which people might not be vehemently opposed to it.

A HYS summer at a V20 firm (non-NY office) got fired a few weeks ago. Apparently it was sexual-harassment related.

I heard this too.

[Anonymous User]

also Summers
Don't discuss Dobbs

Totally fine, as long as you have the firm-approved viewpoint of being vehemently opposed to it — and are actively brainstorming pro bono to advance your viewpoint.

Also totally fine if your gossiping about which people might not be vehemently opposed to it.

A HYS summer at a V20 firm (non-NY office) got fired a few weeks ago. Apparently it was sexual-harassment related.

I heard this too.

I also heard this






On tls on a thread about New York firms no offering summers

[Anonymous User]

Serious question - I am an older associate and I also have noticed more cluelessness about professional norms in the recent summer classes and when I mention it, people say well for K-JD's, it's their first job. This surprises me, though, because don't people work in college anymore? Either during the year or in the summers? I worked in various office settings all through college so by the time I had my first full-time, non-summer job it was by no means my "first job." Granted, I went to college in a major city so there were lots of office job opportunities, but what are college doing in the summers now?

[Anonymous User]

Serious question - I am an older associate and I also have noticed more cluelessness about professional norms in the recent summer classes and when I mention it, people say well for K-JD's, it's their first job. This surprises me, though, because don't people work in college anymore? Either during the year or in the summers? I worked in various office settings all through college so by the time I had my first full-time, non-summer job it was by no means my "first job." Granted, I went to college in a major city so there were lots of office job opportunities, but what are college doing in the summers now?

Yeah a KJD 2L this summer would have graduated in 2020, so they should have had plenty of summer internships I would hope.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Serious question - I am an older associate and I also have noticed more cluelessness about professional norms in the recent summer classes and when I mention it, people say well for K-JD's, it's their first job. This surprises me, though, because don't people work in college anymore? Either during the year or in the summers? I worked in various office settings all through college so by the time I had my first full-time, non-summer job it was by no means my "first job." Granted, I went to college in a major city so there were lots of office job opportunities, but what are college doing in the summers now?

Many internships are unpaid, low paid, or require connections to get. Prior office experience is therefore a privilege, and the most socially inexperienced summers are victims of societal forces outside their control.

[Anonymous User]

What are some examples of cluelessness about professional norms y'all are seeing? Not talking about racist, sexist etc. types of egregious comments and behavior.

[Anonymous User]

Serious question - I am an older associate and I also have noticed more cluelessness about professional norms in the recent summer classes and when I mention it, people say well for K-JD's, it's their first job. This surprises me, though, because don't people work in college anymore? Either during the year or in the summers? I worked in various office settings all through college so by the time I had my first full-time, non-summer job it was by no means my "first job." Granted, I went to college in a major city so there were lots of office job opportunities, but what are college doing in the summers now?

You got me curious so I looked up on LinkedIn for some of the more clueless summers. I see a lot of nonprofit internships and non corporate type stuff like working in retail. A couple are surprisingly not kjds but their experience is again non corporate environments or international (don't wanna get into details so as not to dox). And one or two that absolutely should know better.