Biglaw associates: What class year were you when you bought a house? How expensive of a house did you get? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Can we move on to same questions but for vacation homes?

I bought a "second" home in 2021 with spouse (HHI ~$600K) while still renting in NYC.

6th year
~$770,000
2.875% fixed 30 year
35% down

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

This is a completely pointless thread, because how much you can afford to spend on a house is entirely dictated by your personal circumstances. There's no "if you're a third year making a market salary, you can afford to spend up to $750k" rule, nor can there be, because it will depend on where you live, how much debt you had when you graduated, if you have an SO, how much money they make, how much money you spend on other shit, and 100 other variables.

So of course this thread has devolved into people talking about how rich they are or how poor they feel (anyone making market in NYC is rich, regardless of how poor they feel).

$215K is not rich in NYC, unless you're only polling poor people. With a big enough family, you can qualify for affordable housing projects near me while making over $190K. Factor in $2K a month for loans, and that first year with a family is taking home less than some families qualifying for government subsidized affordable housing. But he's totally still rich, because kids on TLS who may live in Idaho say so.

[thisismytlsuername]

This is a completely pointless thread, because how much you can afford to spend on a house is entirely dictated by your personal circumstances. There's no "if you're a third year making a market salary, you can afford to spend up to $750k" rule, nor can there be, because it will depend on where you live, how much debt you had when you graduated, if you have an SO, how much money they make, how much money you spend on other shit, and 100 other variables.

So of course this thread has devolved into people talking about how rich they are or how poor they feel (anyone making market in NYC is rich, regardless of how poor they feel).

$215K is not rich in NYC, unless you're only polling poor people. With a big enough family, you can qualify for affordable housing projects near me while making over $190K. Factor in $2K a month for loans, and that first year with a family is taking home less than some families qualifying for government subsidized affordable housing. But he's totally still rich, because kids on TLS who may live in Idaho say so.

Ah yes, of course, those first year associates with 4 kids living in the projects, those people totally exist.

Median household income in NYC is under $70k (source: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/ ... /HSG010221). What would you call someone whose individual income is more than 3x the median household income? Could it be...rich?

[Anonymous User]

This is a completely pointless thread, because how much you can afford to spend on a house is entirely dictated by your personal circumstances. There's no "if you're a third year making a market salary, you can afford to spend up to $750k" rule, nor can there be, because it will depend on where you live, how much debt you had when you graduated, if you have an SO, how much money they make, how much money you spend on other shit, and 100 other variables.

So of course this thread has devolved into people talking about how rich they are or how poor they feel (anyone making market in NYC is rich, regardless of how poor they feel).

$215K is not rich in NYC, unless you're only polling poor people. With a big enough family, you can qualify for affordable housing projects near me while making over $190K. Factor in $2K a month for loans, and that first year with a family is taking home less than some families qualifying for government subsidized affordable housing. But he's totally still rich, because kids on TLS who may live in Idaho say so.

Ah yes, of course, those first year associates with 4 kids living in the projects, those people totally exist.

Median household income in NYC is under $70k (source: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/ ... /HSG010221). What would you call someone whose individual income is more than 3x the median household income? Could it be...rich?

Hate to join you in derailing the thread, but the NYC median income has nothing to do with the cost of living as a transplant biglaw junior.

Further, making 3x the median doesn’t make someone rich when the median is so low. Median income in China, a place that has similar inequality to NYC, is $4,500. Can guarantee you $13,500 doesn’t make you rich in China, a country where you see Western luxury cars and goods all over the cities. When most people are really poor, you can make 3x the median and still not be rich.

[Anonymous User]

5th YR, TX, Big Law. 2022 HHI - $610k. Purchased first home in Q1 2022 - $1.595MM + pd. title policy and other misc. fees for sellers, 10.01% down, 2.75% APR. Citi Private Bank.

[Anonymous User]

TX Midlaw. DINK. Close to market pay, but little to no bonuses. Purchased small house in central Austin for 390k (10% down) in 2018. Sold after 65% appreciation and moved to similar market/size of firm. Same pay and purchased second house as 3rd year for 500k (10% down). Like the flexibility of dropping everything and still being able to cover housing expenses with no issues.

[Anonymous User]

This is a completely pointless thread, because how much you can afford to spend on a house is entirely dictated by your personal circumstances. There's no "if you're a third year making a market salary, you can afford to spend up to $750k" rule, nor can there be, because it will depend on where you live, how much debt you had when you graduated, if you have an SO, how much money they make, how much money you spend on other shit, and 100 other variables.

So of course this thread has devolved into people talking about how rich they are or how poor they feel (anyone making market in NYC is rich, regardless of how poor they feel).

$215K is not rich in NYC, unless you're only polling poor people. With a big enough family, you can qualify for affordable housing projects near me while making over $190K. Factor in $2K a month for loans, and that first year with a family is taking home less than some families qualifying for government subsidized affordable housing. But he's totally still rich, because kids on TLS who may live in Idaho say so.

Ah yes, of course, those first year associates with 4 kids living in the projects, those people totally exist.

Median household income in NYC is under $70k (source: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/ ... /HSG010221). What would you call someone whose individual income is more than 3x the median household income? Could it be...rich?

Hate to join you in derailing the thread, but the NYC median income has nothing to do with the cost of living as a transplant biglaw junior.

Further, making 3x the median doesn’t make someone rich when the median is so low. Median income in China, a place that has similar inequality to NYC, is $4,500. Can guarantee you $13,500 doesn’t make you rich in China, a country where you see Western luxury cars and goods all over the cities. When most people are really poor, you can make 3x the median and still not be rich.

Lol I'm a NYC mid-level who is local to the area. Seriously dude, get in touch with the real world. You are rich.

Plenty of people live in NYC and make less than 215K (like, literally everyone I grew up with). They all live in Manhattan (not the expensive neighborhoods we live in, but the neighborhoods transplants don't step foot in like Harlem, Washington Heights etc.) If you don't need to budget and can go to a NYC restaurant or bar whenever you feel like it without stressing about the bill - you are rich.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

This is a completely pointless thread, because how much you can afford to spend on a house is entirely dictated by your personal circumstances. There's no "if you're a third year making a market salary, you can afford to spend up to $750k" rule, nor can there be, because it will depend on where you live, how much debt you had when you graduated, if you have an SO, how much money they make, how much money you spend on other shit, and 100 other variables.

So of course this thread has devolved into people talking about how rich they are or how poor they feel (anyone making market in NYC is rich, regardless of how poor they feel).

$215K is not rich in NYC, unless you're only polling poor people. With a big enough family, you can qualify for affordable housing projects near me while making over $190K. Factor in $2K a month for loans, and that first year with a family is taking home less than some families qualifying for government subsidized affordable housing. But he's totally still rich, because kids on TLS who may live in Idaho say so.

Ah yes, of course, those first year associates with 4 kids living in the projects, those people totally exist.

Median household income in NYC is under $70k (source: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/ ... /HSG010221). What would you call someone whose individual income is more than 3x the median household income? Could it be...rich?

Hate to join you in derailing the thread, but the NYC median income has nothing to do with the cost of living as a transplant biglaw junior.

Further, making 3x the median doesn’t make someone rich when the median is so low. Median income in China, a place that has similar inequality to NYC, is $4,500. Can guarantee you $13,500 doesn’t make you rich in China, a country where you see Western luxury cars and goods all over the cities. When most people are really poor, you can make 3x the median and still not be rich.

Lol I'm a NYC mid-level who is local to the area. Seriously dude, get in touch with the real world. You are rich.

Plenty of people live in NYC and make less than 215K (like, literally everyone I grew up with). They all live in Manhattan (not the expensive neighborhoods we live in, but the neighborhoods transplants don't step foot in like Harlem, Washington Heights etc.) If you don't need to budget and can go to a NYC restaurant or bar whenever you feel like it without stressing about the bill - you are rich.

And now "rich" means going to a bar without "stressing about the bill" ? that's a poor person's conception of being rich.

[namefromplace]

This is a completely pointless thread, because how much you can afford to spend on a house is entirely dictated by your personal circumstances. There's no "if you're a third year making a market salary, you can afford to spend up to $750k" rule, nor can there be, because it will depend on where you live, how much debt you had when you graduated, if you have an SO, how much money they make, how much money you spend on other shit, and 100 other variables.

So of course this thread has devolved into people talking about how rich they are or how poor they feel (anyone making market in NYC is rich, regardless of how poor they feel).

$215K is not rich in NYC, unless you're only polling poor people. With a big enough family, you can qualify for affordable housing projects near me while making over $190K. Factor in $2K a month for loans, and that first year with a family is taking home less than some families qualifying for government subsidized affordable housing. But he's totally still rich, because kids on TLS who may live in Idaho say so.

Ah yes, of course, those first year associates with 4 kids living in the projects, those people totally exist.

Median household income in NYC is under $70k (source: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/ ... /HSG010221). What would you call someone whose individual income is more than 3x the median household income? Could it be...rich?

Hate to join you in derailing the thread, but the NYC median income has nothing to do with the cost of living as a transplant biglaw junior.

Further, making 3x the median doesn’t make someone rich when the median is so low. Median income in China, a place that has similar inequality to NYC, is $4,500. Can guarantee you $13,500 doesn’t make you rich in China, a country where you see Western luxury cars and goods all over the cities. When most people are really poor, you can make 3x the median and still not be rich.

Lol I'm a NYC mid-level who is local to the area. Seriously dude, get in touch with the real world. You are rich.

Plenty of people live in NYC and make less than 215K (like, literally everyone I grew up with). They all live in Manhattan (not the expensive neighborhoods we live in, but the neighborhoods transplants don't step foot in like Harlem, Washington Heights etc.) If you don't need to budget and can go to a NYC restaurant or bar whenever you feel like it without stressing about the bill - you are rich.

And now "rich" means going to a bar without "stressing about the bill" ? that's a poor person's conception of being rich.

An individual making 215k in the NY metro area is in the 95th percentile of income. There's a lot of different ways to define rich, but that's rich to a lot of people. It's hard to see yourself as rich in New York because there are so many ultra-rich people and cost of living is so high. But a first-year associate in NYC is far wealthier than the vast majority of people in the city.

[Anonymous User]

Figured it is worth throwing in my 2 cents.... NYC 3rd Associate (so $250k base salary). Very recently bought a $775k 4bd house in NJ at 30 year fixed 2.75% with 10% down. Very nice, large house. My rationale for buy a house: I needed at least a 2 bedroom for WFH and planning to have kids. When looking for 2 bedrooms, I found it hard to find anything appealing for less than $3,600ish close to NYC. My current mortgage is $4,200 all in (taxes, interest, insurance, principal) with $1,267 going to principal to start. Assuming I will one day be able to sell my house for cost (which is an assumption I recognize) I view this as living in this big house for $2,940/month and essentially saving the principal payment in an illiquid asset. My prior one bedroom apartment near NYC was $2,750/month. FWIW the payment breaks down to 17.9% of my 2021 HH gross income which is below the "28% rule."

For those who care, the catch is here is that I am at a fully remote optional firm and I am the last stop on the NJ/NY line, so I would never want to commute in more than 2 days/week (kind of marries me to my firm). Wife is a teacher and makes $62k/year. Wife has student debt, but she is on a program where she pays like $250/month and it will be forgiven in like 6 more years. I paid off my $100k in student debt prior to buying the house. Probably a little risk financial move, but I'm still young and I do love the house.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

This is a completely pointless thread, because how much you can afford to spend on a house is entirely dictated by your personal circumstances. There's no "if you're a third year making a market salary, you can afford to spend up to $750k" rule, nor can there be, because it will depend on where you live, how much debt you had when you graduated, if you have an SO, how much money they make, how much money you spend on other shit, and 100 other variables.

So of course this thread has devolved into people talking about how rich they are or how poor they feel (anyone making market in NYC is rich, regardless of how poor they feel).

$215K is not rich in NYC, unless you're only polling poor people. With a big enough family, you can qualify for affordable housing projects near me while making over $190K. Factor in $2K a month for loans, and that first year with a family is taking home less than some families qualifying for government subsidized affordable housing. But he's totally still rich, because kids on TLS who may live in Idaho say so.

Ah yes, of course, those first year associates with 4 kids living in the projects, those people totally exist.

Median household income in NYC is under $70k (source: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/ ... /HSG010221). What would you call someone whose individual income is more than 3x the median household income? Could it be...rich?

Hate to join you in derailing the thread, but the NYC median income has nothing to do with the cost of living as a transplant biglaw junior.

Further, making 3x the median doesn’t make someone rich when the median is so low. Median income in China, a place that has similar inequality to NYC, is $4,500. Can guarantee you $13,500 doesn’t make you rich in China, a country where you see Western luxury cars and goods all over the cities. When most people are really poor, you can make 3x the median and still not be rich.

Lol I'm a NYC mid-level who is local to the area. Seriously dude, get in touch with the real world. You are rich.

Plenty of people live in NYC and make less than 215K (like, literally everyone I grew up with). They all live in Manhattan (not the expensive neighborhoods we live in, but the neighborhoods transplants don't step foot in like Harlem, Washington Heights etc.) If you don't need to budget and can go to a NYC restaurant or bar whenever you feel like it without stressing about the bill - you are rich.

And now "rich" means going to a bar without "stressing about the bill" ? that's a poor person's conception of being rich.

An individual making 215k in the NY metro area is in the 95th percentile of income. There's a lot of different ways to define rich, but that's rich to a lot of people. It's hard to see yourself as rich in New York because there are so many ultra-rich people and cost of living is so high. But a first-year associate in NYC is far wealthier than the vast majority of people in the city.

The point is that wealth is incredibly concentrated in the hands of the few, such that being “wealthier than the vast majority of people” is meaningless. It’s like giving you a copy of Hustler and a single cell, then saying you’re better off than the vast majority of inmates at the penitentiary.

[thisismytlsuername]

$215K is not rich in NYC, unless you're only polling poor people. With a big enough family, you can qualify for affordable housing projects near me while making over $190K. Factor in $2K a month for loans, and that first year with a family is taking home less than some families qualifying for government subsidized affordable housing. But he's totally still rich, because kids on TLS who may live in Idaho say so.

Ah yes, of course, those first year associates with 4 kids living in the projects, those people totally exist.

Median household income in NYC is under $70k (source: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/ ... /HSG010221). What would you call someone whose individual income is more than 3x the median household income? Could it be...rich?

Hate to join you in derailing the thread, but the NYC median income has nothing to do with the cost of living as a transplant biglaw junior.

Further, making 3x the median doesn’t make someone rich when the median is so low. Median income in China, a place that has similar inequality to NYC, is $4,500. Can guarantee you $13,500 doesn’t make you rich in China, a country where you see Western luxury cars and goods all over the cities. When most people are really poor, you can make 3x the median and still not be rich.

Lol I'm a NYC mid-level who is local to the area. Seriously dude, get in touch with the real world. You are rich.

Plenty of people live in NYC and make less than 215K (like, literally everyone I grew up with). They all live in Manhattan (not the expensive neighborhoods we live in, but the neighborhoods transplants don't step foot in like Harlem, Washington Heights etc.) If you don't need to budget and can go to a NYC restaurant or bar whenever you feel like it without stressing about the bill - you are rich.

And now "rich" means going to a bar without "stressing about the bill" ? that's a poor person's conception of being rich.

An individual making 215k in the NY metro area is in the 95th percentile of income. There's a lot of different ways to define rich, but that's rich to a lot of people. It's hard to see yourself as rich in New York because there are so many ultra-rich people and cost of living is so high. But a first-year associate in NYC is far wealthier than the vast majority of people in the city.

The point is that wealth is incredibly concentrated in the hands of the few, such that being “wealthier than the vast majority of people” is meaningless. It’s like giving you a copy of Hustler and a single cell, then saying you’re better off than the vast majority of inmates at the penitentiary.

"Not as rich as Bezos" doesn't mean "not rich".

[Anonymous User]

And now "rich" means going to a bar without "stressing about the bill" ? that's a poor person's conception of being rich.

Shouldn't we be basing our conception of rich on what poor people think!? Every rich person I talk to (note that I don't talk to the "I own a multi-billion-dollar company types") thinks she or he could really use more money. If I could just afford private school for my kids, I'd really be rich. If I could just have a house on the coast, I'd really be rich. If I could just afford that nice boat and a Ferrari, I'd really be rich. The perceptions of the poor are the only constant - their view of what makes you rich doesn't change with how much money you happen to make.

People often feel uncomfortable or ashamed to identify as rich. That's probably why we have this debate, and also why we have meaningless terms like "upper middle class" (whatever that means). Maybe it's out of modesty or maybe it's out of greed for more. TBH I'd be embarrassed trying to convince my average joe friends (nurses, HR professionals, plumbers, graphic designers, government workers, teachers, etc.) I'm not rich. They'd take one look at my salary with six figures that doesn't start with a "1", >$1m home, and savings account balance and laugh me out of the room.

It doesn't matter, whether you feel rich or whether someone else you know makes more. If you're making biglaw money you're rich. Someone who graduated in the top 5% of your average high school is smart, even if they didn't get into Harvard. Someone who is in the bottom 5% of the weight curve is skinny, even if they know someone skinnier and think they could lose a few pounds. Someone who earns in the top 5% of individuals in the country is rich, even if there's someone else who makes more.

[Anonymous User]

And now "rich" means going to a bar without "stressing about the bill" ? that's a poor person's conception of being rich.

Shouldn't we be basing our conception of rich on what poor people think!? Every rich person I talk to (note that I don't talk to the "I own a multi-billion-dollar company types") thinks she or he could really use more money. If I could just afford private school for my kids, I'd really be rich. If I could just have a house on the coast, I'd really be rich. If I could just afford that nice boat and a Ferrari, I'd really be rich. The perceptions of the poor are the only constant - their view of what makes you rich doesn't change with how much money you happen to make.

People often feel uncomfortable or ashamed to identify as rich. That's probably why we have this debate, and also why we have meaningless terms like "upper middle class" (whatever that means). Maybe it's out of modesty or maybe it's out of greed for more. TBH I'd be embarrassed trying to convince my average joe friends (nurses, HR professionals, plumbers, graphic designers, government workers, teachers, etc.) I'm not rich. They'd take one look at my salary with six figures that doesn't start with a "1", >$1m home, and savings account balance and laugh me out of the room.

It doesn't matter, whether you feel rich or whether someone else you know makes more. If you're making biglaw money you're rich. Someone who graduated in the top 5% of your average high school is smart, even if they didn't get into Harvard. Someone who is in the bottom 5% of the weight curve is skinny, even if they know someone skinnier and think they could lose a few pounds. Someone who earns in the top 5% of individuals in the country is rich, even if there's someone else who makes more.

Not even top 5% of the country - top 5% of NYC. I can just tell OP is a KJD who has no idea what it's like to live on a normal salary.

Yes - not having to worry about bills, whether they be rent, restaurant, electricity etc. means you're better off than the large majority of Americans. That's not a poor person mindset. That's the reality of life for about 95% of Americans.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

And now "rich" means going to a bar without "stressing about the bill" ? that's a poor person's conception of being rich.

Shouldn't we be basing our conception of rich on what poor people think!? Every rich person I talk to (note that I don't talk to the "I own a multi-billion-dollar company types") thinks she or he could really use more money. If I could just afford private school for my kids, I'd really be rich. If I could just have a house on the coast, I'd really be rich. If I could just afford that nice boat and a Ferrari, I'd really be rich. The perceptions of the poor are the only constant - their view of what makes you rich doesn't change with how much money you happen to make.

People often feel uncomfortable or ashamed to identify as rich. That's probably why we have this debate, and also why we have meaningless terms like "upper middle class" (whatever that means). Maybe it's out of modesty or maybe it's out of greed for more. TBH I'd be embarrassed trying to convince my average joe friends (nurses, HR professionals, plumbers, graphic designers, government workers, teachers, etc.) I'm not rich. They'd take one look at my salary with six figures that doesn't start with a "1", >$1m home, and savings account balance and laugh me out of the room.

It doesn't matter, whether you feel rich or whether someone else you know makes more. If you're making biglaw money you're rich. Someone who graduated in the top 5% of your average high school is smart, even if they didn't get into Harvard. Someone who is in the bottom 5% of the weight curve is skinny, even if they know someone skinnier and think they could lose a few pounds. Someone who earns in the top 5% of individuals in the country is rich, even if there's someone else who makes more.

Not even top 5% of the country - top 5% of NYC. I can just tell OP is a KJD who has no idea what it's like to live on a normal salary.

Yes - not having to worry about bills, whether they be rent, restaurant, electricity etc. means you're better off than the large majority of Americans. That's not a poor person mindset. That's the reality of life for about 95% of Americans.

Not a KJD. Anyway, you keep citing irrelevant statistics. Middle class doesn’t mean the statistical middle, nor does rich mean statistical top X percent. That’s just what total rubes believe. The more accurate conception of class would be the English and particularly the London definition, whereby at most 5 or 10% of people are ever classed as “middle” (and big lawyer would be a quintessentially middle class role) and “upper” status must be inherited.

[thisismytlsuername]

And now "rich" means going to a bar without "stressing about the bill" ? that's a poor person's conception of being rich.

Shouldn't we be basing our conception of rich on what poor people think!? Every rich person I talk to (note that I don't talk to the "I own a multi-billion-dollar company types") thinks she or he could really use more money. If I could just afford private school for my kids, I'd really be rich. If I could just have a house on the coast, I'd really be rich. If I could just afford that nice boat and a Ferrari, I'd really be rich. The perceptions of the poor are the only constant - their view of what makes you rich doesn't change with how much money you happen to make.

People often feel uncomfortable or ashamed to identify as rich. That's probably why we have this debate, and also why we have meaningless terms like "upper middle class" (whatever that means). Maybe it's out of modesty or maybe it's out of greed for more. TBH I'd be embarrassed trying to convince my average joe friends (nurses, HR professionals, plumbers, graphic designers, government workers, teachers, etc.) I'm not rich. They'd take one look at my salary with six figures that doesn't start with a "1", >$1m home, and savings account balance and laugh me out of the room.

It doesn't matter, whether you feel rich or whether someone else you know makes more. If you're making biglaw money you're rich. Someone who graduated in the top 5% of your average high school is smart, even if they didn't get into Harvard. Someone who is in the bottom 5% of the weight curve is skinny, even if they know someone skinnier and think they could lose a few pounds. Someone who earns in the top 5% of individuals in the country is rich, even if there's someone else who makes more.

Not even top 5% of the country - top 5% of NYC. I can just tell OP is a KJD who has no idea what it's like to live on a normal salary.

Yes - not having to worry about bills, whether they be rent, restaurant, electricity etc. means you're better off than the large majority of Americans. That's not a poor person mindset. That's the reality of life for about 95% of Americans.

Not a KJD. Anyway, you keep citing irrelevant statistics. Middle class doesn’t mean the statistical middle, nor does rich mean statistical top X percent. That’s just what total rubes believe. The more accurate conception of class would be the English and particularly the London definition, whereby at most 5 or 10% of people are ever classed as “middle” (and big lawyer would be a quintessentially middle class role) and “upper” status must be inherited.

Sorry you feel so poor. I'd recommend therapy.

[Anonymous User]

And now "rich" means going to a bar without "stressing about the bill" ? that's a poor person's conception of being rich.

Shouldn't we be basing our conception of rich on what poor people think!? Every rich person I talk to (note that I don't talk to the "I own a multi-billion-dollar company types") thinks she or he could really use more money. If I could just afford private school for my kids, I'd really be rich. If I could just have a house on the coast, I'd really be rich. If I could just afford that nice boat and a Ferrari, I'd really be rich. The perceptions of the poor are the only constant - their view of what makes you rich doesn't change with how much money you happen to make.

People often feel uncomfortable or ashamed to identify as rich. That's probably why we have this debate, and also why we have meaningless terms like "upper middle class" (whatever that means). Maybe it's out of modesty or maybe it's out of greed for more. TBH I'd be embarrassed trying to convince my average joe friends (nurses, HR professionals, plumbers, graphic designers, government workers, teachers, etc.) I'm not rich. They'd take one look at my salary with six figures that doesn't start with a "1", >$1m home, and savings account balance and laugh me out of the room.

It doesn't matter, whether you feel rich or whether someone else you know makes more. If you're making biglaw money you're rich. Someone who graduated in the top 5% of your average high school is smart, even if they didn't get into Harvard. Someone who is in the bottom 5% of the weight curve is skinny, even if they know someone skinnier and think they could lose a few pounds. Someone who earns in the top 5% of individuals in the country is rich, even if there's someone else who makes more.

Not even top 5% of the country - top 5% of NYC. I can just tell OP is a KJD who has no idea what it's like to live on a normal salary.

Yes - not having to worry about bills, whether they be rent, restaurant, electricity etc. means you're better off than the large majority of Americans. That's not a poor person mindset. That's the reality of life for about 95% of Americans.

Not a KJD. Anyway, you keep citing irrelevant statistics. Middle class doesn’t mean the statistical middle, nor does rich mean statistical top X percent. That’s just what total rubes believe. The more accurate conception of class would be the English and particularly the London definition, whereby at most 5 or 10% of people are ever classed as “middle” (and big lawyer would be a quintessentially middle class role) and “upper” status must be inherited.

Lol solid troll - you had us riled up there for awhile.

[Anonymous User]

"I'm not the landed gentry" is a line the rich use to appear relatable and utilitarian.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

And now "rich" means going to a bar without "stressing about the bill" ? that's a poor person's conception of being rich.

Shouldn't we be basing our conception of rich on what poor people think!? Every rich person I talk to (note that I don't talk to the "I own a multi-billion-dollar company types") thinks she or he could really use more money. If I could just afford private school for my kids, I'd really be rich. If I could just have a house on the coast, I'd really be rich. If I could just afford that nice boat and a Ferrari, I'd really be rich. The perceptions of the poor are the only constant - their view of what makes you rich doesn't change with how much money you happen to make.

People often feel uncomfortable or ashamed to identify as rich. That's probably why we have this debate, and also why we have meaningless terms like "upper middle class" (whatever that means). Maybe it's out of modesty or maybe it's out of greed for more. TBH I'd be embarrassed trying to convince my average joe friends (nurses, HR professionals, plumbers, graphic designers, government workers, teachers, etc.) I'm not rich. They'd take one look at my salary with six figures that doesn't start with a "1", >$1m home, and savings account balance and laugh me out of the room.

It doesn't matter, whether you feel rich or whether someone else you know makes more. If you're making biglaw money you're rich. Someone who graduated in the top 5% of your average high school is smart, even if they didn't get into Harvard. Someone who is in the bottom 5% of the weight curve is skinny, even if they know someone skinnier and think they could lose a few pounds. Someone who earns in the top 5% of individuals in the country is rich, even if there's someone else who makes more.

Not even top 5% of the country - top 5% of NYC. I can just tell OP is a KJD who has no idea what it's like to live on a normal salary.

Yes - not having to worry about bills, whether they be rent, restaurant, electricity etc. means you're better off than the large majority of Americans. That's not a poor person mindset. That's the reality of life for about 95% of Americans.

Not a KJD. Anyway, you keep citing irrelevant statistics. Middle class doesn’t mean the statistical middle, nor does rich mean statistical top X percent. That’s just what total rubes believe. The more accurate conception of class would be the English and particularly the London definition, whereby at most 5 or 10% of people are ever classed as “middle” (and big lawyer would be a quintessentially middle class role) and “upper” status must be inherited.

Sorry you feel so poor. I'd recommend therapy.

I’m very happy and don’t think a person needs to be rich to have a happy life. But I’m also committed to the truth, and the “momma I made it! I’m rich now!” attitude of your average biglaw junior is simply not accurate.

[Anonymous User]

And now "rich" means going to a bar without "stressing about the bill" ? that's a poor person's conception of being rich.

Shouldn't we be basing our conception of rich on what poor people think!? Every rich person I talk to (note that I don't talk to the "I own a multi-billion-dollar company types") thinks she or he could really use more money. If I could just afford private school for my kids, I'd really be rich. If I could just have a house on the coast, I'd really be rich. If I could just afford that nice boat and a Ferrari, I'd really be rich. The perceptions of the poor are the only constant - their view of what makes you rich doesn't change with how much money you happen to make.

People often feel uncomfortable or ashamed to identify as rich. That's probably why we have this debate, and also why we have meaningless terms like "upper middle class" (whatever that means). Maybe it's out of modesty or maybe it's out of greed for more. TBH I'd be embarrassed trying to convince my average joe friends (nurses, HR professionals, plumbers, graphic designers, government workers, teachers, etc.) I'm not rich. They'd take one look at my salary with six figures that doesn't start with a "1", >$1m home, and savings account balance and laugh me out of the room.

It doesn't matter, whether you feel rich or whether someone else you know makes more. If you're making biglaw money you're rich. Someone who graduated in the top 5% of your average high school is smart, even if they didn't get into Harvard. Someone who is in the bottom 5% of the weight curve is skinny, even if they know someone skinnier and think they could lose a few pounds. Someone who earns in the top 5% of individuals in the country is rich, even if there's someone else who makes more.

Not even top 5% of the country - top 5% of NYC. I can just tell OP is a KJD who has no idea what it's like to live on a normal salary.

Yes - not having to worry about bills, whether they be rent, restaurant, electricity etc. means you're better off than the large majority of Americans. That's not a poor person mindset. That's the reality of life for about 95% of Americans.

Not a KJD. Anyway, you keep citing irrelevant statistics. Middle class doesn’t mean the statistical middle, nor does rich mean statistical top X percent. That’s just what total rubes believe. The more accurate conception of class would be the English and particularly the London definition, whereby at most 5 or 10% of people are ever classed as “middle” (and big lawyer would be a quintessentially middle class role) and “upper” status must be inherited.

Sorry you feel so poor. I'd recommend therapy.

I’m very happy and don’t think a person needs to be rich to have a happy life. But I’m also committed to the truth, and the “momma I made it! I’m rich now!” attitude of your average biglaw junior is simply not accurate.

I would love to see how your ungrateful mommas boy boat shoes wearing ass would feel on a 40k salary.

[BLPartner]

Always amazing to me to see people try to argue that biglaw people aren't "rich." Ok, middle class 6-figure guy.

And yeah, I'm a partner. But I was an associate just like others are (and got paid meaningfully less than associates get paid now, even accounting for inflation). I was rich too. Jeez. "Poor person's concept of rich" More like silver spoon out of touch concept of what it takes to be "rich."

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

And now "rich" means going to a bar without "stressing about the bill" ? that's a poor person's conception of being rich.

Shouldn't we be basing our conception of rich on what poor people think!? Every rich person I talk to (note that I don't talk to the "I own a multi-billion-dollar company types") thinks she or he could really use more money. If I could just afford private school for my kids, I'd really be rich. If I could just have a house on the coast, I'd really be rich. If I could just afford that nice boat and a Ferrari, I'd really be rich. The perceptions of the poor are the only constant - their view of what makes you rich doesn't change with how much money you happen to make.

People often feel uncomfortable or ashamed to identify as rich. That's probably why we have this debate, and also why we have meaningless terms like "upper middle class" (whatever that means). Maybe it's out of modesty or maybe it's out of greed for more. TBH I'd be embarrassed trying to convince my average joe friends (nurses, HR professionals, plumbers, graphic designers, government workers, teachers, etc.) I'm not rich. They'd take one look at my salary with six figures that doesn't start with a "1", >$1m home, and savings account balance and laugh me out of the room.

It doesn't matter, whether you feel rich or whether someone else you know makes more. If you're making biglaw money you're rich. Someone who graduated in the top 5% of your average high school is smart, even if they didn't get into Harvard. Someone who is in the bottom 5% of the weight curve is skinny, even if they know someone skinnier and think they could lose a few pounds. Someone who earns in the top 5% of individuals in the country is rich, even if there's someone else who makes more.

Not even top 5% of the country - top 5% of NYC. I can just tell OP is a KJD who has no idea what it's like to live on a normal salary.

Yes - not having to worry about bills, whether they be rent, restaurant, electricity etc. means you're better off than the large majority of Americans. That's not a poor person mindset. That's the reality of life for about 95% of Americans.

Not a KJD. Anyway, you keep citing irrelevant statistics. Middle class doesn’t mean the statistical middle, nor does rich mean statistical top X percent. That’s just what total rubes believe. The more accurate conception of class would be the English and particularly the London definition, whereby at most 5 or 10% of people are ever classed as “middle” (and big lawyer would be a quintessentially middle class role) and “upper” status must be inherited.

Sorry you feel so poor. I'd recommend therapy.

I’m very happy and don’t think a person needs to be rich to have a happy life. But I’m also committed to the truth, and the “momma I made it! I’m rich now!” attitude of your average biglaw junior is simply not accurate.

I would love to see how your ungrateful mommas boy boat shoes wearing ass would feel on a 40k salary.

First off, you sound like an incredible, non-shitty person, and I regret that we haven't hung out. Second, ungrateful to whom? You realize biglaw is a job where you trade work for money? It's not a charity. Third, that was a magnificent use of anon.

[Anonymous User]

What is happening here... To add my two cents re being rich topic, IMO, I think feeling rich is probably more tied to wealth than income and maybe a better phrase to use is being financially secured. You are not going to feel rich earning $215k if you don't have much wealth because you know that income can disappear anytime (especially in biglaw where careers are short lived) regardless of whether your income bracket is in the top 5% or whatever. Obviously earning that much will help you achieve that financial security faster, but until you build some wealth, you won't feel rich.

Second, feeling rich is localized - is not only tied to how much you earn but also how much other people earn in your immediate neighborhood and how much it costs live there. I don't really get the incessant need to cite national/citywide average income statistics to counter this point. In a city like NYC with significant income/wealth inequity and high cost of living, you can both feel not so rich and rich depending on which neighborhood you live in. People earning $215k+ are more likely to live in expensive neighborhoods where people earn more than the average. This not to say if you don't feel rich you will feel poor making 215K - it is more like you won't feel rich.

[nealric]

Always amazing to me to see people try to argue that biglaw people aren't "rich." Ok, middle class 6-figure guy.

And yeah, I'm a partner. But I was an associate just like others are (and got paid meaningfully less than associates get paid now, even accounting for inflation). I was rich too. Jeez. "Poor person's concept of rich" More like silver spoon out of touch concept of what it takes to be "rich."

So much depends on your point of comparison. BL folks often don't feel rich because they are constantly exposed to people with quite a bit more wealth than them. Associates are comparing themselves to partners. Partners are comparing themselves to executives they work with.

If you are the manager of a Walmart making $150k, you are mostly surrounded by people making near minimum wage, and you probably feel pretty well off. If you are Jr. Biglaw associate making $215k, almost every other attorney you work with makes more than you.

I'd also note that class is more than just how much money you bring in annually. A lot of fairly wealthy people think of themselves as "middle class" because they were raised and perceive themselves as such. "Rich" is often thought of as something for people born with trust funds large enough to make income optional and who grew up using "summer" as a verb.

[Anonymous User]

Just adding my 5c. I moved here a while ago from Australia. My total compensation as a senior associate, after tax, is similar to some equity partners back home. Australia is hardly a poor country either. Obviously, there are many sacrifices and hardships involved along this journey, but financially we do very well all things considered. Also, to Neilric’s point above, as the saying goes, “comparison is the thief of joy.”

I have a house back in Australia, which I bought as a junior associate. I plan to buy at some stage in the US, but my wife doesn’t want to sell our existing home, so I’m back to square one. Plus, when you take property taxes and general upkeep into account, renting an apartment for a while doesn’t seem like a terrible financial decision.