2023 Vault/Firsthand Rankings Forum

[Anonymous User]

Yes, it is ridiculous... ppl might choose milbank over paul hastings/omelveny/some other random sub v20ish firm, but the idea that they can actually pull associate talent on par with ~v15 above is crazy. You'd be insane to take a Milbank offer over sidley or weil, let alone PW/GDC. In fact, the thought of choosing milbank over PW/GDC is actually comical

Do people in New York care this much about firm vault prestige or is this just a law student being a weirdo? Because this seems like a really weird take from my west coast perspective.

Totally reasonable to pick WSGR over Cooley even though Cooley is a higher “V.” Also reasonable to pick OMM over a Latham or DPW etc because you liked the people you met from OMM better.

Different firms also do different things. Jenner (V65) has a great appellate and state AG practice. Gunderson (V75) is among the best for VC. Wilkie (V38) has a good entertainment practice. Susman (V41) does plaintiffs work and Munger (V42) is filled with SCOTUS-clerk level litigators. Why would someone go to like Weil or something over those if Weil doesn’t do that type of work?

Anyways enjoy the preftige I guess?

This isn’t a west coast perspective… no one with the stats is taking omelveny or Jenner (lol) over LW/GDC out here in Southern California. Unless maybe over GDC for corp, but not as familiar

But to the extent you want tech yeah I’ve seen ppl go wsgr/cooley and of course munger/susman is kinda it’s own thing. But prestige still matters out here

Jenner is a highly selective firm everywhere even though it’s relatively small outside of Chicago because it’s a top firm for liberal federal clerks and has relatively good litigation partnership prospects. And though I’m not in LA, the idea that OMM doesn’t have anyone who could get hired at GDC or LW is facially ludicrous.

[Anonymous User]

SullCrom should raise to 230 and get that V5 back.

SullCrom got straight 1s from me for screwing over their summers during COVID (the only V10 to do so). Until they take some sort of pro-associate action (like initiating a raise) I’ll continue to do so. Plus, they’re kinda dicks anyway.

Sorry, I couldn't find my answer through the search engine. What did S&C do during the pandemic?

IIRC they canceled their summer program but paid summers 20k and gave 100% offers. Tbh, a free 20k to do nothing isn't too bad but also understand that some people were counting on the 40k to reduce debt loads 3L.

Not the best pandemic response but also probably not the worst. Got put in the spotlight cuz they acted quickly and they are a ~prominent~ firm

[Anonymous User]

Yes, it is ridiculous... ppl might choose milbank over paul hastings/omelveny/some other random sub v20ish firm, but the idea that they can actually pull associate talent on par with ~v15 above is crazy. You'd be insane to take a Milbank offer over sidley or weil, let alone PW/GDC. In fact, the thought of choosing milbank over PW/GDC is actually comical

Do people in New York care this much about firm vault prestige or is this just a law student being a weirdo? Because this seems like a really weird take from my west coast perspective.

Totally reasonable to pick WSGR over Cooley even though Cooley is a higher “V.” Also reasonable to pick OMM over a Latham or DPW etc because you liked the people you met from OMM better.

Different firms also do different things. Jenner (V65) has a great appellate and state AG practice. Gunderson (V75) is among the best for VC. Wilkie (V38) has a good entertainment practice. Susman (V41) does plaintiffs work and Munger (V42) is filled with SCOTUS-clerk level litigators. Why would someone go to like Weil or something over those if Weil doesn’t do that type of work?

Anyways enjoy the preftige I guess?

This isn’t a west coast perspective… no one with the stats is taking omelveny or Jenner (lol) over LW/GDC out here in Southern California. Unless maybe over GDC for corp, but not as familiar

But to the extent you want tech yeah I’ve seen ppl go wsgr/cooley and of course munger/susman is kinda it’s own thing. But prestige still matters out here

Jenner is a highly selective firm everywhere even though it’s relatively small outside of Chicago because it’s a top firm for liberal federal clerks and has relatively good litigation partnership prospects. And though I’m not in LA, the idea that OMM doesn’t have anyone who could get hired at GDC or LW is facially ludicrous.

I’m sure someone has taken OMM for personal reasons but that is the hard exception… LW/GDC are by far the top dogs out here

Wrt to Jenner idk a ton, just that usually top candidates aren’t picking it

[Anonymous User]

SullCrom should raise to 230 and get that V5 back.

SullCrom got straight 1s from me for screwing over their summers during COVID (the only V10 to do so). Until they take some sort of pro-associate action (like initiating a raise) I’ll continue to do so. Plus, they’re kinda dicks anyway.

Sorry, I couldn't find my answer through the search engine. What did S&C do during the pandemic?

IIRC they canceled their summer program but paid summers 20k and gave 100% offers. Tbh, a free 20k to do nothing isn't too bad but also understand that some people were counting on the 40k to reduce debt loads 3L.

Not the best pandemic response but also probably not the worst. Got put in the spotlight cuz they acted quickly and they are a ~prominent~ firm

They also had 10k of that 20k be an advance that was only forgiven this year. And they took forever to decide on this approach, which left the 2020 summers with a great deal of uncertainty during COVID.

Certainly not the worst, but far below what we would expect from a firm of that stature. (It’s not like the firm is doing badly too, RPL still second highest after WLRK I believe.)

[Anonymous User]

SullCrom should raise to 230 and get that V5 back.

SullCrom got straight 1s from me for screwing over their summers during COVID (the only V10 to do so). Until they take some sort of pro-associate action (like initiating a raise) I’ll continue to do so. Plus, they’re kinda dicks anyway.

Sorry, I couldn't find my answer through the search engine. What did S&C do during the pandemic?

IIRC they canceled their summer program but paid summers 20k and gave 100% offers. Tbh, a free 20k to do nothing isn't too bad but also understand that some people were counting on the 40k to reduce debt loads 3L.

Not the best pandemic response but also probably not the worst. Got put in the spotlight cuz they acted quickly and they are a ~prominent~ firm

They also had 10k of that 20k be an advance that was only forgiven this year. And they took forever to decide on this approach, which left the 2020 summers with a great deal of uncertainty during COVID.

Certainly not the worst, but far below what we would expect from a firm of that stature. (It’s not like the firm is doing badly too, RPL still second highest after WLRK I believe.)

Thanks!! Very informative

[Anonymous User]

No way, LW is way harder to get than KE, and has the chambers band ranks to boot. Plus KE has a sweatshop rep.

It's kind of impressive how many things are wrong in this short of a post.

How about you stick out your neck and point to what's wrong rather than giving a throwaway response. OP here is generally correct on these points. At my T-14, LW offers were on par with those around them at v5 and those that went there had offers from peer Vault firms. On the other hand, for KE you mostly just needed a pulse for an offer (this is even more true for lateraling) and I knew several people below median that went to K&E. People forget that these surveys are primarily filled out by first and second years who come in with their law school mentality and bias. While LW certainly has the Chambers recognition to compete with the top, I think they and KE each have their own strengths making this a wash.

As far as sweat shop rep, not to say you won't be working hard at LW but KE has a notorious sweatshop and harsher personalities than you'll find at LW. People also just generally dislike working across from them. This ends of factoring into what is ultimately a very small difference between #5 and #7.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

SullCrom should raise to 230 and get that V5 back.

SullCrom got straight 1s from me for screwing over their summers during COVID (the only V10 to do so). Until they take some sort of pro-associate action (like initiating a raise) I’ll continue to do so. Plus, they’re kinda dicks anyway.

Sorry, I couldn't find my answer through the search engine. What did S&C do during the pandemic?

IIRC they canceled their summer program but paid summers 20k and gave 100% offers. Tbh, a free 20k to do nothing isn't too bad but also understand that some people were counting on the 40k to reduce debt loads 3L.

Not the best pandemic response but also probably not the worst. Got put in the spotlight cuz they acted quickly and they are a ~prominent~ firm

They also had 10k of that 20k be an advance that was only forgiven this year. And they took forever to decide on this approach, which left the 2020 summers with a great deal of uncertainty during COVID.

Certainly not the worst, but far below what we would expect from a firm of that stature. (It’s not like the firm is doing badly too, RPL still second highest after WLRK I believe.)

Thanks!! Very informative

And like most info on this site, inaccurate. They paid $19,200 in cash and then an additional $10K was available as a loan.

[Anonymous User]

No way, LW is way harder to get than KE, and has the chambers band ranks to boot. Plus KE has a sweatshop rep.

It's kind of impressive how many things are wrong in this short of a post.

How about you stick out your neck and point to what's wrong rather than giving a throwaway response. OP here is generally correct on these points. At my T-14, LW offers were on par with those around them at v5 and those that went there had offers from peer Vault firms. On the other hand, for KE you mostly just needed a pulse for an offer (this is even more true for lateraling) and I knew several people below median that went to K&E. People forget that these surveys are primarily filled out by first and second years who come in with their law school mentality and bias. While LW certainly has the Chambers recognition to compete with the top, I think they and KE each have their own strengths making this a wash.

As far as sweat shop rep, not to say you won't be working hard at LW but KE has a notorious sweatshop and harsher personalities than you'll find at LW. People also just generally dislike working across from them. This ends of factoring into what is ultimately a very small difference between #5 and #7.

Agreed, similar to what I’ve seen/experienced

[Anonymous User]

No way, LW is way harder to get than KE, and has the chambers band ranks to boot. Plus KE has a sweatshop rep.

It's kind of impressive how many things are wrong in this short of a post.

How about you stick out your neck and point to what's wrong rather than giving a throwaway response. OP here is generally correct on these points. At my T-14, LW offers were on par with those around them at v5 and those that went there had offers from peer Vault firms. On the other hand, for KE you mostly just needed a pulse for an offer (this is even more true for lateraling) and I knew several people below median that went to K&E. People forget that these surveys are primarily filled out by first and second years who come in with their law school mentality and bias. While LW certainly has the Chambers recognition to compete with the top, I think they and KE each have their own strengths making this a wash.

As far as sweat shop rep, not to say you won't be working hard at LW but KE has a notorious sweatshop and harsher personalities than you'll find at LW. People also just generally dislike working across from them. This ends of factoring into what is ultimately a very small difference between #5 and #7.

I'm looking at the numbers right now for my T14. There's no real difference between LW and KE grade-wise, for us at least. KE offers went to people with slightly higher grades for the New York, San Francisco, and DC offices, while grades for LW offers were slightly higher for Chicago. There are a lot of offices where we don't have enough data to compare the two though. Maybe your school's different, but there's not a real difference between who gets offers and accepts offers at mine.

[Anonymous User]

SullCrom should raise to 230 and get that V5 back.

SullCrom got straight 1s from me for screwing over their summers during COVID (the only V10 to do so). Until they take some sort of pro-associate action (like initiating a raise) I’ll continue to do so. Plus, they’re kinda dicks anyway.

Sorry, I couldn't find my answer through the search engine. What did S&C do during the pandemic?

IIRC they canceled their summer program but paid summers 20k and gave 100% offers. Tbh, a free 20k to do nothing isn't too bad but also understand that some people were counting on the 40k to reduce debt loads 3L.

Not the best pandemic response but also probably not the worst. Got put in the spotlight cuz they acted quickly and they are a ~prominent~ firm

They also had 10k of that 20k be an advance that was only forgiven this year. And they took forever to decide on this approach, which left the 2020 summers with a great deal of uncertainty during COVID.

Certainly not the worst, but far below what we would expect from a firm of that stature. (It’s not like the firm is doing badly too, RPL still second highest after WLRK I believe.)

Thanks!! Very informative

And like most info on this site, inaccurate. They paid $19,200 in cash and then an additional $10K was available as a loan.

I’m the anon who mentioned that $10k out of $20k figure. My bad, you are totally right.

I stand by the rest of my post though.

[Anonymous User]

No way, LW is way harder to get than KE, and has the chambers band ranks to boot. Plus KE has a sweatshop rep.

It's kind of impressive how many things are wrong in this short of a post.

How about you stick out your neck and point to what's wrong rather than giving a throwaway response. OP here is generally correct on these points. At my T-14, LW offers were on par with those around them at v5 and those that went there had offers from peer Vault firms. On the other hand, for KE you mostly just needed a pulse for an offer (this is even more true for lateraling) and I knew several people below median that went to K&E. People forget that these surveys are primarily filled out by first and second years who come in with their law school mentality and bias. While LW certainly has the Chambers recognition to compete with the top, I think they and KE each have their own strengths making this a wash.

As far as sweat shop rep, not to say you won't be working hard at LW but KE has a notorious sweatshop and harsher personalities than you'll find at LW. People also just generally dislike working across from them. This ends of factoring into what is ultimately a very small difference between #5 and #7.

Agreed, similar to what I’ve seen/experienced

lol subtle LW trolls. (1) LW is not GPA selective at all at my T14, whereas K&E is. (2) LW is below K&E for most corporate/restructuring bands.

Obviously speaking to NY offices here.

[Anonymous User]

No way, LW is way harder to get than KE, and has the chambers band ranks to boot. Plus KE has a sweatshop rep.

It's kind of impressive how many things are wrong in this short of a post.

How about you stick out your neck and point to what's wrong rather than giving a throwaway response. OP here is generally correct on these points. At my T-14, LW offers were on par with those around them at v5 and those that went there had offers from peer Vault firms. On the other hand, for KE you mostly just needed a pulse for an offer (this is even more true for lateraling) and I knew several people below median that went to K&E. People forget that these surveys are primarily filled out by first and second years who come in with their law school mentality and bias. While LW certainly has the Chambers recognition to compete with the top, I think they and KE each have their own strengths making this a wash.

As far as sweat shop rep, not to say you won't be working hard at LW but KE has a notorious sweatshop and harsher personalities than you'll find at LW. People also just generally dislike working across from them. This ends of factoring into what is ultimately a very small difference between #5 and #7.

Agreed, similar to what I’ve seen/experienced

Not the quoted og OP

GPA data at my T14 indicates Latham is not selective at all whereas K&E targets around top 40%. Not sure why this debate is being had though. They're both massive firms, they're both dominant in their respective home markets and relatively okay in NY, and they're both the least selective V10s.

[Anonymous User]

No way, LW is way harder to get than KE, and has the chambers band ranks to boot. Plus KE has a sweatshop rep.

It's kind of impressive how many things are wrong in this short of a post.

How about you stick out your neck and point to what's wrong rather than giving a throwaway response. OP here is generally correct on these points. At my T-14, LW offers were on par with those around them at v5 and those that went there had offers from peer Vault firms. On the other hand, for KE you mostly just needed a pulse for an offer (this is even more true for lateraling) and I knew several people below median that went to K&E. People forget that these surveys are primarily filled out by first and second years who come in with their law school mentality and bias. While LW certainly has the Chambers recognition to compete with the top, I think they and KE each have their own strengths making this a wash.

As far as sweat shop rep, not to say you won't be working hard at LW but KE has a notorious sweatshop and harsher personalities than you'll find at LW. People also just generally dislike working across from them. This ends of factoring into what is ultimately a very small difference between #5 and #7.

Agreed, similar to what I’ve seen/experienced

Not the quoted og OP

GPA data at my T14 indicates Latham is not selective at all whereas K&E targets around top 40%. Not sure why this debate is being had though. They're both massive firms, they're both dominant in their respective home markets and relatively okay in NY, and they're both the least selective V10s.

OG op, directly above is wrong - LW is more selective.

At my non-NYC t-14, LW generally requires ~3.8 whereas KE requires just under ~3.7 (generally speaking). That makes LW selectivity on par with GDC/Skad, quite a bit more selective than KE/STB/PW/DPW, and just slightly less selective than SC/Cravath.

Though if you are targeting NYC offices, I would expect LW selectivity to decrease relative to some of the white shoes headquartered there, but definitely not as compared to KE.

[Anonymous User]

Can confirm that LW is substantially more selective than all the other V10s except Wachtell, Cravath (though very close), and S&C at my HYS. Not that I'm sure of why; I don't really see how they're positively differentiated from K&E/DPW/PW etc. Bullpen gets an auto-drop from me tho.

[Anonymous User]

No way, LW is way harder to get than KE, and has the chambers band ranks to boot. Plus KE has a sweatshop rep.

It's kind of impressive how many things are wrong in this short of a post.

How about you stick out your neck and point to what's wrong rather than giving a throwaway response. OP here is generally correct on these points. At my T-14, LW offers were on par with those around them at v5 and those that went there had offers from peer Vault firms. On the other hand, for KE you mostly just needed a pulse for an offer (this is even more true for lateraling) and I knew several people below median that went to K&E. People forget that these surveys are primarily filled out by first and second years who come in with their law school mentality and bias. While LW certainly has the Chambers recognition to compete with the top, I think they and KE each have their own strengths making this a wash.

As far as sweat shop rep, not to say you won't be working hard at LW but KE has a notorious sweatshop and harsher personalities than you'll find at LW. People also just generally dislike working across from them. This ends of factoring into what is ultimately a very small difference between #5 and #7.

Agreed, similar to what I’ve seen/experienced

Not the quoted og OP

GPA data at my T14 indicates Latham is not selective at all whereas K&E targets around top 40%. Not sure why this debate is being had though. They're both massive firms, they're both dominant in their respective home markets and relatively okay in NY, and they're both the least selective V10s.

OG op, directly above is wrong - LW is more selective.

At my non-NYC t-14, LW generally requires ~3.8 whereas KE requires just under ~3.7 (generally speaking). That makes LW selectivity on par with GDC/Skad, quite a bit more selective than KE/STB/PW/DPW, and just slightly less selective than SC/Cravath.

Though if you are targeting NYC offices, I would expect LW selectivity to decrease relative to some of the white shoes headquartered there, but definitely not as compared to KE.

Do you mean NYC non-T14? Those are INCREDIBLY high cutoffs.

Also anecdotally at NYU law Latham is the least selective of all the above mentioned firms with a median gpa of around 3.45-3.50ish.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

SullCrom got straight 1s from me for screwing over their summers during COVID (the only V10 to do so). Until they take some sort of pro-associate action (like initiating a raise) I’ll continue to do so. Plus, they’re kinda dicks anyway.

Sorry, I couldn't find my answer through the search engine. What did S&C do during the pandemic?

IIRC they canceled their summer program but paid summers 20k and gave 100% offers. Tbh, a free 20k to do nothing isn't too bad but also understand that some people were counting on the 40k to reduce debt loads 3L.

Not the best pandemic response but also probably not the worst. Got put in the spotlight cuz they acted quickly and they are a ~prominent~ firm

They also had 10k of that 20k be an advance that was only forgiven this year. And they took forever to decide on this approach, which left the 2020 summers with a great deal of uncertainty during COVID.

Certainly not the worst, but far below what we would expect from a firm of that stature. (It’s not like the firm is doing badly too, RPL still second highest after WLRK I believe.)

Thanks!! Very informative

And like most info on this site, inaccurate. They paid $19,200 in cash and then an additional $10K was available as a loan.

I’m the anon who mentioned that $10k out of $20k figure. My bad, you are totally right.

I stand by the rest of my post though.

Agreed that S&C mishandled. Paying less than Fried Frank when S&C is supposed to be the better firm. Proskauer also didn’t pay full I believe (think they did $25K). But $10K plus a loan would have been horrendous and probably would have knocked S&C below K&E on vault

[Anonymous User]

People must be conflating across offices. Latham DC is selective; Latham NY is really not.

[Anonymous User]

People must be conflating across offices. Latham DC is selective; Latham NY is really not.

I think this is it. There is no way Latham is more selective from NYU than HLS generally. I still think LW NYC is on par with v10 in terms of selectivity, but know for a fact LW in other markets (for example, CA) is typically one of the most selective. Not sure about DC, but anecdotally have heard it is selective.

[Anonymous User]

Agreed that S&C mishandled. Paying less than Fried Frank when S&C is supposed to be the better firm. Proskauer also didn’t pay full I believe (think they did $25K). But $10K plus a loan would have been horrendous and probably would have knocked S&C below K&E on vault

I don't disagree that this was mishandled or that S&C should have paid more. But it is worth noting that lots of what you might call worse firms pay more than S&C for the same number of hours via variable bonuses.

[Sackboy]

People must be conflating across offices. Latham DC is selective; Latham NY is really not.

100% what's happening here. Latham LA and Kirkland CH are as selective as Cravath/S&C. Latham NY and Kirkland NY simply aren't as selective as most of the V10 white shoe firms. All DC offices are going to be extremely selective.

[Anonymous User]

No way, LW is way harder to get than KE, and has the chambers band ranks to boot. Plus KE has a sweatshop rep.

It's kind of impressive how many things are wrong in this short of a post.

How about you stick out your neck and point to what's wrong rather than giving a throwaway response. OP here is generally correct on these points. At my T-14, LW offers were on par with those around them at v5 and those that went there had offers from peer Vault firms. On the other hand, for KE you mostly just needed a pulse for an offer (this is even more true for lateraling) and I knew several people below median that went to K&E. People forget that these surveys are primarily filled out by first and second years who come in with their law school mentality and bias. While LW certainly has the Chambers recognition to compete with the top, I think they and KE each have their own strengths making this a wash.

As far as sweat shop rep, not to say you won't be working hard at LW but KE has a notorious sweatshop and harsher personalities than you'll find at LW. People also just generally dislike working across from them. This ends of factoring into what is ultimately a very small difference between #5 and #7.

Agreed, similar to what I’ve seen/experienced

lol subtle LW trolls. (1) LW is not GPA selective at all at my T14, whereas K&E is. (2) LW is below K&E for most corporate/restructuring bands.

Obviously speaking to NY offices here.

Don't know why I'm engaging this further (but that's why we're all stupid enough to go to law school right?), but you can plainly see on Chambers that LW has 140 ranked departments and 397 ranked attorneys to KE's 101 ranked departments and 292 ranked attorneys (they both approximately the same number of attorneys).

As far as the most popular practice groups, they are a wash on M&A, Banking and Litigation, LW wins on Capital Markets, KE wins on Restructuring. Convenient that you say KE is ahead when you look at corporate and restructuring since you're highlighting one group that KE is of course a leader in. Might as well follow up with noting that PW and Quinn should be ranked higher since they have better litigation groups.

Ultimately, I think these two firms are arguably the most peer firms on the list and are mostly interchangeable unless you are interested in a specific practice group that one might be specifically better in. What is comical though are these KE defenders on here acting like they're head and shoulders above a firm that is almost a mirror image of theirs (looks like the market disagrees ). KE suicide watch is definitely confirmed.

[Anonymous User]

No way, LW is way harder to get than KE, and has the chambers band ranks to boot. Plus KE has a sweatshop rep.

It's kind of impressive how many things are wrong in this short of a post.

How about you stick out your neck and point to what's wrong rather than giving a throwaway response. OP here is generally correct on these points. At my T-14, LW offers were on par with those around them at v5 and those that went there had offers from peer Vault firms. On the other hand, for KE you mostly just needed a pulse for an offer (this is even more true for lateraling) and I knew several people below median that went to K&E. People forget that these surveys are primarily filled out by first and second years who come in with their law school mentality and bias. While LW certainly has the Chambers recognition to compete with the top, I think they and KE each have their own strengths making this a wash.

As far as sweat shop rep, not to say you won't be working hard at LW but KE has a notorious sweatshop and harsher personalities than you'll find at LW. People also just generally dislike working across from them. This ends of factoring into what is ultimately a very small difference between #5 and #7.

Agreed, similar to what I’ve seen/experienced

Not the quoted og OP

GPA data at my T14 indicates Latham is not selective at all whereas K&E targets around top 40%. Not sure why this debate is being had though. They're both massive firms, they're both dominant in their respective home markets and relatively okay in NY, and they're both the least selective V10s.

OG op, directly above is wrong - LW is more selective.

At my non-NYC t-14, LW generally requires ~3.8 whereas KE requires just under ~3.7 (generally speaking). That makes LW selectivity on par with GDC/Skad, quite a bit more selective than KE/STB/PW/DPW, and just slightly less selective than SC/Cravath.

Though if you are targeting NYC offices, I would expect LW selectivity to decrease relative to some of the white shoes headquartered there, but definitely not as compared to KE.

Do you mean NYC non-T14? Those are INCREDIBLY high cutoffs.

Also anecdotally at NYU law Latham is the least selective of all the above mentioned firms with a median gpa of around 3.45-3.50ish.

This is simply just not true ... (1) NYU never provides median numbers, they only provide average callback GPAs, in 3 categories: no GPA requirement, 3.4+ and 3.6+ (the statistical meaning and difference between average and median I'm sure you understand); (2) out of all the above mentioned firms, KE, GDC are also in 3.4 groups, PW corporate (according to my counselor) is way less selective than the above firms. Also just to remind you: 3.4+ is above median at NYU after 1L, traditionally close to top 30%, since median used to be lower than 3.3.

According to my friend at CLS, the Harlan scholar rate of callbacks are significantly higher for LW. LW offers 90%+ callbacks to Harlan scholars (on par with SC/Cravath/DPW), where KE is close to 50%.

They are both good, large firms, and top notch in the market, no sure why people are obsessed over the selectivity. They obvs have difference practice focuses so just pick the one you are more interested in if you are fortunate enough to be picking between those two.

[Anonymous User]

It's kind of impressive how many things are wrong in this short of a post.

How about you stick out your neck and point to what's wrong rather than giving a throwaway response. OP here is generally correct on these points. At my T-14, LW offers were on par with those around them at v5 and those that went there had offers from peer Vault firms. On the other hand, for KE you mostly just needed a pulse for an offer (this is even more true for lateraling) and I knew several people below median that went to K&E. People forget that these surveys are primarily filled out by first and second years who come in with their law school mentality and bias. While LW certainly has the Chambers recognition to compete with the top, I think they and KE each have their own strengths making this a wash.

As far as sweat shop rep, not to say you won't be working hard at LW but KE has a notorious sweatshop and harsher personalities than you'll find at LW. People also just generally dislike working across from them. This ends of factoring into what is ultimately a very small difference between #5 and #7.

Agreed, similar to what I’ve seen/experienced

Not the quoted og OP

GPA data at my T14 indicates Latham is not selective at all whereas K&E targets around top 40%. Not sure why this debate is being had though. They're both massive firms, they're both dominant in their respective home markets and relatively okay in NY, and they're both the least selective V10s.

OG op, directly above is wrong - LW is more selective.

At my non-NYC t-14, LW generally requires ~3.8 whereas KE requires just under ~3.7 (generally speaking). That makes LW selectivity on par with GDC/Skad, quite a bit more selective than KE/STB/PW/DPW, and just slightly less selective than SC/Cravath.

Though if you are targeting NYC offices, I would expect LW selectivity to decrease relative to some of the white shoes headquartered there, but definitely not as compared to KE.

Do you mean NYC non-T14? Those are INCREDIBLY high cutoffs.

Also anecdotally at NYU law Latham is the least selective of all the above mentioned firms with a median gpa of around 3.45-3.50ish.

This is simply just not true ... (1) NYU never provides median numbers, they only provide average callback GPAs, in 3 categories: no GPA requirement, 3.4+ and 3.6+ (the statistical meaning and difference between average and median I'm sure you understand); (2) out of all the above mentioned firms, KE, GDC are also in 3.4 groups, PW corporate (according to my counselor) is way less selective than the above firms. Also just to remind you: 3.4+ is above median at NYU after 1L, traditionally close to top 30%, since median used to be lower than 3.3.

According to my friend at CLS, the Harlan scholar rate of callbacks are significantly higher for LW. LW offers 90%+ callbacks to Harlan scholars (on par with SC/Cravath/DPW), where KE is close to 50%.

They are both good, large firms, and top notch in the market, no sure why people are obsessed over the selectivity. They obvs have difference practice focuses so just pick the one you are more interested in if you are fortunate enough to be picking between those two.

Yes NYU has that thing where they separate it into three groups (which if we're going off that, yes, pulling up my old notes Kirkland, Latham, and GDC are 3.4). The way they do this is kinda dumb though because they take the middle of the lowest gpa accepted and the highest gpa accepted and then that is the gpa presented in the graph. But, if you talk to OCS you can ask them what the median gpas are. I met with my advisors a few times and I would walk through firms and they would pull out this excel sheet they had and they told me the median Latham callback typically was between 3.45 and 3.5 (or at least that is what my notes here say). Latham (NY) and Skadden (NY), at least in my time, was well know for being the firms that median candidates (3.3) would bid at because they had a reasonable shot. Kirkland, less so. Latham, at NYU, is not on par gpa wise with DPW/Cravath/S&C. For that matter, S&C is not really on par with DPW/Cravath which had like a hard 3.7 gpa cutoff.

Anyways, I completely agree, this selectivity thing is complete BS.

[Anonymous User]

It's kind of impressive how many things are wrong in this short of a post.

How about you stick out your neck and point to what's wrong rather than giving a throwaway response. OP here is generally correct on these points. At my T-14, LW offers were on par with those around them at v5 and those that went there had offers from peer Vault firms. On the other hand, for KE you mostly just needed a pulse for an offer (this is even more true for lateraling) and I knew several people below median that went to K&E. People forget that these surveys are primarily filled out by first and second years who come in with their law school mentality and bias. While LW certainly has the Chambers recognition to compete with the top, I think they and KE each have their own strengths making this a wash.

As far as sweat shop rep, not to say you won't be working hard at LW but KE has a notorious sweatshop and harsher personalities than you'll find at LW. People also just generally dislike working across from them. This ends of factoring into what is ultimately a very small difference between #5 and #7.

Agreed, similar to what I’ve seen/experienced

Not the quoted og OP

GPA data at my T14 indicates Latham is not selective at all whereas K&E targets around top 40%. Not sure why this debate is being had though. They're both massive firms, they're both dominant in their respective home markets and relatively okay in NY, and they're both the least selective V10s.

OG op, directly above is wrong - LW is more selective.

At my non-NYC t-14, LW generally requires ~3.8 whereas KE requires just under ~3.7 (generally speaking). That makes LW selectivity on par with GDC/Skad, quite a bit more selective than KE/STB/PW/DPW, and just slightly less selective than SC/Cravath.

Though if you are targeting NYC offices, I would expect LW selectivity to decrease relative to some of the white shoes headquartered there, but definitely not as compared to KE.

Do you mean NYC non-T14? Those are INCREDIBLY high cutoffs.

Also anecdotally at NYU law Latham is the least selective of all the above mentioned firms with a median gpa of around 3.45-3.50ish.

This is simply just not true ... (1) NYU never provides median numbers, they only provide average callback GPAs, in 3 categories: no GPA requirement, 3.4+ and 3.6+ (the statistical meaning and difference between average and median I'm sure you understand); (2) out of all the above mentioned firms, KE, GDC are also in 3.4 groups, PW corporate (according to my counselor) is way less selective than the above firms. Also just to remind you: 3.4+ is above median at NYU after 1L, traditionally close to top 30%, since median used to be lower than 3.3.

According to my friend at CLS, the Harlan scholar rate of callbacks are significantly higher for LW. LW offers 90%+ callbacks to Harlan scholars (on par with SC/Cravath/DPW), where KE is close to 50%.

They are both good, large firms, and top notch in the market, no sure why people are obsessed over the selectivity. They obvs have difference practice focuses so just pick the one you are more interested in if you are fortunate enough to be picking between those two.

Seems like a KE troll or two are generating mass confusion. Agree with the above and previous OP re LW being much more selective than KE and on par with the traditional New York elites. Ymmv depending on which LW office

[Anonymous User]

How about you stick out your neck and point to what's wrong rather than giving a throwaway response. OP here is generally correct on these points. At my T-14, LW offers were on par with those around them at v5 and those that went there had offers from peer Vault firms. On the other hand, for KE you mostly just needed a pulse for an offer (this is even more true for lateraling) and I knew several people below median that went to K&E. People forget that these surveys are primarily filled out by first and second years who come in with their law school mentality and bias. While LW certainly has the Chambers recognition to compete with the top, I think they and KE each have their own strengths making this a wash.

As far as sweat shop rep, not to say you won't be working hard at LW but KE has a notorious sweatshop and harsher personalities than you'll find at LW. People also just generally dislike working across from them. This ends of factoring into what is ultimately a very small difference between #5 and #7.

Agreed, similar to what I’ve seen/experienced

Not the quoted og OP

GPA data at my T14 indicates Latham is not selective at all whereas K&E targets around top 40%. Not sure why this debate is being had though. They're both massive firms, they're both dominant in their respective home markets and relatively okay in NY, and they're both the least selective V10s.

OG op, directly above is wrong - LW is more selective.

At my non-NYC t-14, LW generally requires ~3.8 whereas KE requires just under ~3.7 (generally speaking). That makes LW selectivity on par with GDC/Skad, quite a bit more selective than KE/STB/PW/DPW, and just slightly less selective than SC/Cravath.

Though if you are targeting NYC offices, I would expect LW selectivity to decrease relative to some of the white shoes headquartered there, but definitely not as compared to KE.

Do you mean NYC non-T14? Those are INCREDIBLY high cutoffs.

Also anecdotally at NYU law Latham is the least selective of all the above mentioned firms with a median gpa of around 3.45-3.50ish.

This is simply just not true ... (1) NYU never provides median numbers, they only provide average callback GPAs, in 3 categories: no GPA requirement, 3.4+ and 3.6+ (the statistical meaning and difference between average and median I'm sure you understand); (2) out of all the above mentioned firms, KE, GDC are also in 3.4 groups, PW corporate (according to my counselor) is way less selective than the above firms. Also just to remind you: 3.4+ is above median at NYU after 1L, traditionally close to top 30%, since median used to be lower than 3.3.

According to my friend at CLS, the Harlan scholar rate of callbacks are significantly higher for LW. LW offers 90%+ callbacks to Harlan scholars (on par with SC/Cravath/DPW), where KE is close to 50%.

They are both good, large firms, and top notch in the market, no sure why people are obsessed over the selectivity. They obvs have difference practice focuses so just pick the one you are more interested in if you are fortunate enough to be picking between those two.

Seems like a KE troll or two are generating mass confusion. Agree with the above and previous OP re LW being much more selective than KE and on par with the traditional New York elites. Ymmv depending on which LW office

GPA data provided by Cornell's CSO showed higher cutoffs for K&E than LW for 2021 OCI. But, as already mentioned ITT, this debate is dumb.

Also, anyone who thinks LW NY is as "prestigious" or "selective" as other NY firms like S&C, DPW, STB, or even firms like Cleary and Debevoise are likely relying exclusively on Vault rankings and talking out of their ass.

To put it in perspective: LW has 12 US offices. K&E has 11.

NYC-centric firms: S&C 4; DPW 3; STB 5; Cleary 3; Debevoise 3.

So yeah, based on Vault ranking and name recognition, makes sense LW and K&E are inflated. And yes, as anon posted above, they're dominant in their home markets. But in NY? Cmon.