2023 Vault/Firsthand Rankings Forum

[Anonymous User]

DPW should raise to 250. Separate the wheat from the chaff. All firms being at the same general idea of market is an aberration. Let's see who has the financial resources to keep up.

Edit:

I get this unfortunate attitude because I've been on both ends. At my V10, all I had was prestige because I sure as hell wasn't going to advance within the firm past maybe year 5. I had good relationships with my colleagues but, substantively, amounted to no more than a well-liked paper-churning cog. Now having lateraled to a V50 I'm getting put in front of rainmakers and being told, in detail, the firm's long term plans for me (including client interaction, etc). By the standards of many on TLS I've taken a huge L but it's become very clear to me how divergent that is from the reality of my day-to-day where I feel much more valued and secure long term.

Do you think you'd be given the same interactions if you hadn't started at the V10? Genuinely curious how much the branding helps

[Anonymous User]

DPW should raise to 250. Separate the wheat from the chaff. All firms being at the same general idea of market is an aberration. Let's see who has the financial resources to keep up.

Edit:

I get this unfortunate attitude because I've been on both ends. At my V10, all I had was prestige because I sure as hell wasn't going to advance within the firm past maybe year 5. I had good relationships with my colleagues but, substantively, amounted to no more than a well-liked paper-churning cog. Now having lateraled to a V50 I'm getting put in front of rainmakers and being told, in detail, the firm's long term plans for me (including client interaction, etc). By the standards of many on TLS I've taken a huge L but it's become very clear to me how divergent that is from the reality of my day-to-day where I feel much more valued and secure long term.

Do you think you'd be given the same interactions if you hadn't started at the V10? Genuinely curious how much the branding helps

(Re-framing after re-reading your question)

I never would have had this opportunity in the first place without those 2-3 years of experience at the V10. My pedigree coming from that firm was a huge reason I was recruited so aggressively. To that extent, the prestige definitely does matter - I think the point I'm (inarticulately) trying to make is that as you get more senior that prestige matters far less and it becomes a legitimate (and arguably more optimal) option to leverage it into whatever ideal situation you can create for yourself. Vault does arguably matter for law students, but for lawyers year 3+ you should really be advancing your career objectives on your own instead of arguing about prestige, because odds are you won't be advancing at a V10 (unless you count NSP as real advancement, lol).

[Anonymous User]

I get this unfortunate attitude because I've been on both ends. At my V10, all I had was prestige because I sure as hell wasn't going to advance within the firm past maybe year 5. I had good relationships with my colleagues but, substantively, amounted to no more than a well-liked paper-churning cog. Now having lateraled to a V50 I'm getting put in front of rainmakers and being told, in detail, the firm's long term plans for me (including client interaction, etc). By the standards of many on TLS I've taken a huge L but it's become very clear to me how divergent that is from the reality of my day-to-day where I feel much more valued and secure long term.

I left a V10 for a firm within the V50 range and I do not regret it at all. I would have left for Milbank just as easily because I knew even prior to this jump that they were market leaders.

The other V10 anon talking about "real prestige" is missing the big picture.

[Anonymous User]

As a recent grad going to a V5, I 100% agree with the sentiments above.

I plan on doing two years and bouncing to a lower ranked Vault firm or a midlaw firm ASAP. I know I’m not alone in that viewpoint either, and may be a part of the business model for the firm I am going to.

But, with all firms being somewhat even in pay—preftige is starting to matter less to my generation.

[tlsguy2020]

Yes, it is ridiculous... ppl might choose milbank over paul hastings/omelveny/some other random sub v20ish firm, but the idea that they can actually pull associate talent on par with ~v15 above is crazy. You'd be insane to take a Milbank offer over sidley or weil, let alone PW/GDC. In fact, the thought of choosing milbank over PW/GDC is actually comical

Do people in New York care this much about firm vault prestige or is this just a law student being a weirdo? Because this seems like a really weird take from my west coast perspective.

Totally reasonable to pick WSGR over Cooley even though Cooley is a higher “V.” Also reasonable to pick OMM over a Latham or DPW etc because you liked the people you met from OMM better.

Different firms also do different things. Jenner (V65) has a great appellate and state AG practice. Gunderson (V75) is among the best for VC. Wilkie (V38) has a good entertainment practice. Susman (V41) does plaintiffs work and Munger (V42) is filled with SCOTUS-clerk level litigators. Why would someone go to like Weil or something over those if Weil doesn’t do that type of work?

Anyways enjoy the preftige I guess?

[Anonymous User]

DPW should raise to 250. Separate the wheat from the chaff. All firms being at the same general idea of market is an aberration. Let's see who has the financial resources to keep up.

Edit:

I get this unfortunate attitude because I've been on both ends. At my V10, all I had was prestige because I sure as hell wasn't going to advance within the firm past maybe year 5. I had good relationships with my colleagues but, substantively, amounted to no more than a well-liked paper-churning cog. Now having lateraled to a V50 I'm getting put in front of rainmakers and being told, in detail, the firm's long term plans for me (including client interaction, etc). By the standards of many on TLS I've taken a huge L but it's become very clear to me how divergent that is from the reality of my day-to-day where I feel much more valued and secure long term.

Do you think you'd be given the same interactions if you hadn't started at the V10? Genuinely curious how much the branding helps

(Re-framing after re-reading your question)

I never would have had this opportunity in the first place without those 2-3 years of experience at the V10. My pedigree coming from that firm was a huge reason I was recruited so aggressively. To that extent, the prestige definitely does matter - I think the point I'm (inarticulately) trying to make is that as you get more senior that prestige matters far less and it becomes a legitimate (and arguably more optimal) option to leverage it into whatever ideal situation you can create for yourself. Vault does arguably matter for law students, but for lawyers year 3+ you should really be advancing your career objectives on your own instead of arguing about prestige, because odds are you won't be advancing at a V10 (unless you count NSP as real advancement, lol).

Summary, Vs can matter for some people. This is all a matter of what you want from your V firm.

[Anonymous User]

Paying more money than other firms or raising the market is prestigious. And Vault is about prestige. So jumping for moving money is reasonable. You forget Milbank jumped 15 spots after it first raised market.

You think we respect Wachtell so highly because they work their associates more than other firms? No, it's the money. They also have a reputation justified or not for being exceedingly intelligent/doing more complex work than even their "peers."

Milbank has no real prestige. Dead stop.

Sorry they rejected you at OCI. And thanks for the anon non-argument.

Milbank to V10.

Lolz currently at a real v10. You cant just purchase true prestige… guess I presumed too much

No extra hate on Milbank, and even appreciate them pushing the salary envelope, but cmon

Nobody will remember you in 100 years. But stay SIMPing for prestige that nobody in this world cares about.

I get this unfortunate attitude because I've been on both ends. At my V10, all I had was prestige because I sure as hell wasn't going to advance within the firm past maybe year 5. I had good relationships with my colleagues but, substantively, amounted to no more than a well-liked paper-churning cog. Now having lateraled to a V50 I'm getting put in front of rainmakers and being told, in detail, the firm's long term plans for me (including client interaction, etc). By the standards of many on TLS I've taken a huge L but it's become very clear to me how divergent that is from the reality of my day-to-day where I feel much more valued and secure long term.

In case this isn't a subtle troll: you're still a paper-churning cog at your V50, and the partners are feeding your ego to make you stay and churn more paper.

[Anonymous User]

I know the regional Vault rankings matter even less than the pointless nationwide rankings but for shits & giggles…

Big losers in NYC:
• S&C: -2 (#3 to #5)
• Cleary: -3 (#8 to #11)
• Debevoise: -3 (#9 to #12)

Those haven't been updated yet. The only update is to the 100 ranking.

When do these lists get updated?

[Anonymous User]

SullCrom should raise to 230 and get that V5 back.

[Anonymous User]

DPW should raise to 250. Separate the wheat from the chaff. All firms being at the same general idea of market is an aberration. Let's see who has the financial resources to keep up.

Edit:

I get this unfortunate attitude because I've been on both ends. At my V10, all I had was prestige because I sure as hell wasn't going to advance within the firm past maybe year 5. I had good relationships with my colleagues but, substantively, amounted to no more than a well-liked paper-churning cog. Now having lateraled to a V50 I'm getting put in front of rainmakers and being told, in detail, the firm's long term plans for me (including client interaction, etc). By the standards of many on TLS I've taken a huge L but it's become very clear to me how divergent that is from the reality of my day-to-day where I feel much more valued and secure long term.

Do you think you'd be given the same interactions if you hadn't started at the V10? Genuinely curious how much the branding helps

(Re-framing after re-reading your question)

I never would have had this opportunity in the first place without those 2-3 years of experience at the V10. My pedigree coming from that firm was a huge reason I was recruited so aggressively. To that extent, the prestige definitely does matter - I think the point I'm (inarticulately) trying to make is that as you get more senior that prestige matters far less and it becomes a legitimate (and arguably more optimal) option to leverage it into whatever ideal situation you can create for yourself. Vault does arguably matter for law students, but for lawyers year 3+ you should really be advancing your career objectives on your own instead of arguing about prestige, because odds are you won't be advancing at a V10 (unless you count NSP as real advancement, lol).

For what is worth I had a similar experience lateraling to a v50ish from a well regarded but not super well known boutique (i.e. a firm that most consider less "prestigious" than a V10).

The above is partially just an aspect of lateral hiring where you are being brought in to serve a particular need through a process that is expensive for the firm. Firm leadership has a strong incentive to present you with a real long term plan and integrate you into the team to make sure their investment pays off. It does create a bit of a weird dynamic because I think there are probably homegrown associates who are bit miffed they hired someone for this role as opposed to having one of them fill it.

So I don't think you have to start out at a V10 to have this type of outcome if you can market yourself well and hustle a bit. Surviving until your 3/4 year is probably the single biggest factor, since there is seemingly always demand for competent lateral mid-level hires.

This is all from a lit perspective; corporate folks who lateraled I'm 2021 to a firm desperate for bodies ASAP may have a different experience because the firms incentives were different for those hires.

[Anonymous User]

Yes, it is ridiculous... ppl might choose milbank over paul hastings/omelveny/some other random sub v20ish firm, but the idea that they can actually pull associate talent on par with ~v15 above is crazy. You'd be insane to take a Milbank offer over sidley or weil, let alone PW/GDC. In fact, the thought of choosing milbank over PW/GDC is actually comical

Do people in New York care this much about firm vault prestige or is this just a law student being a weirdo? Because this seems like a really weird take from my west coast perspective.

Totally reasonable to pick WSGR over Cooley even though Cooley is a higher “V.” Also reasonable to pick OMM over a Latham or DPW etc because you liked the people you met from OMM better.

Different firms also do different things. Jenner (V65) has a great appellate and state AG practice. Gunderson (V75) is among the best for VC. Wilkie (V38) has a good entertainment practice. Susman (V41) does plaintiffs work and Munger (V42) is filled with SCOTUS-clerk level litigators. Why would someone go to like Weil or something over those if Weil doesn’t do that type of work?

Anyways enjoy the preftige I guess?

This isn’t a west coast perspective… no one with the stats is taking omelveny or Jenner (lol) over LW/GDC out here in Southern California. Unless maybe over GDC for corp, but not as familiar

But to the extent you want tech yeah I’ve seen ppl go wsgr/cooley and of course munger/susman is kinda it’s own thing. But prestige still matters out here

[Anonymous User]

Do we have any hopes of a another round of raises given the economy?

[Anonymous User]

What the heck is going on with McDermott Will & Emery? #1 in almost everything work/life & summer related, including a jump in "Compensation" from #28 to #1, "Transparency" from unranked to #1, and "Best Law Firm to Work For" from #41 to #1

Did folks see this coming? Is it really a big law heaven?

[Anonymous User]

Do we have any hopes of a another round of raises given the economy?

Assuming that Milbank is still profitable across most or all groups, I'd say there is definitely the possibility.

[Anonymous User]

Do we have any hopes of a another round of raises given the economy?

Assuming that Milbank is still profitable across most or all groups, I'd say there is definitely the possibility.

Don’t get my hopes up haha

[Anonymous User]

What the heck is going on with McDermott Will & Emery? #1 in almost everything work/life & summer related, including a jump in "Compensation" from #28 to #1, "Transparency" from unranked to #1, and "Best Law Firm to Work For" from #41 to #1

Did folks see this coming? Is it really a big law heaven?

No one cares Mr MWE Recruiting

[Anonymous User]

What the heck is going on with McDermott Will & Emery? #1 in almost everything work/life & summer related, including a jump in "Compensation" from #28 to #1, "Transparency" from unranked to #1, and "Best Law Firm to Work For" from #41 to #1

Did folks see this coming? Is it really a big law heaven?

No one cares Mr MWE Recruiting

Same anon, not at this firm, nor a "Mr." Just genuinely flabbergasted because I have no idea HOW a jump like that could occur, esp. with respect to something like compensation when firms like WLRK and Kirkland pay bigger bonuses and are on the same pay scale, and MWE wasn't even the firm to kick off the salary increases...

[Anonymous User]

What the heck is going on with McDermott Will & Emery? #1 in almost everything work/life & summer related, including a jump in "Compensation" from #28 to #1, "Transparency" from unranked to #1, and "Best Law Firm to Work For" from #41 to #1

Did folks see this coming? Is it really a big law heaven?

No one cares Mr MWE Recruiting

Same anon, not at this firm, nor a "Mr." Just genuinely flabbergasted because I have no idea HOW a jump like that could occur, esp. with respect to something like compensation when firms like WLRK and Kirkland pay bigger bonuses and are on the same pay scale, and MWE wasn't even the firm to kick off the salary increases...

Because specialty rankings for firms are irrelevant just like they are for schools.

[Anonymous User]

What the heck is going on with McDermott Will & Emery? #1 in almost everything work/life & summer related, including a jump in "Compensation" from #28 to #1, "Transparency" from unranked to #1, and "Best Law Firm to Work For" from #41 to #1

Did folks see this coming? Is it really a big law heaven?

No one cares Mr MWE Recruiting

Same anon, not at this firm, nor a "Mr." Just genuinely flabbergasted because I have no idea HOW a jump like that could occur, esp. with respect to something like compensation when firms like WLRK and Kirkland pay bigger bonuses and are on the same pay scale, and MWE wasn't even the firm to kick off the salary increases...

Because specialty rankings for firms are irrelevant just like they are for schools.

Fair enough, thanks.

[Moneytrees]

What the heck is going on with McDermott Will & Emery? #1 in almost everything work/life & summer related, including a jump in "Compensation" from #28 to #1, "Transparency" from unranked to #1, and "Best Law Firm to Work For" from #41 to #1

Did folks see this coming? Is it really a big law heaven?

No one cares Mr MWE Recruiting

Same anon, not at this firm, nor a "Mr." Just genuinely flabbergasted because I have no idea HOW a jump like that could occur, esp. with respect to something like compensation when firms like WLRK and Kirkland pay bigger bonuses and are on the same pay scale, and MWE wasn't even the firm to kick off the salary increases...

Because specialty rankings for firms are irrelevant just like they are for schools.

Fair enough, thanks.

They were n.1 for virtually every category last year, too. Doesn't make any sense, and I'm actually surprised Vault let something like that happen, since it seems to highlight the fact that their rankings can easily be gamed.

[thepsychedelic]

What the heck is going on with McDermott Will & Emery? #1 in almost everything work/life & summer related, including a jump in "Compensation" from #28 to #1, "Transparency" from unranked to #1, and "Best Law Firm to Work For" from #41 to #1

Did folks see this coming? Is it really a big law heaven?

No one cares Mr MWE Recruiting

Same anon, not at this firm, nor a "Mr." Just genuinely flabbergasted because I have no idea HOW a jump like that could occur, esp. with respect to something like compensation when firms like WLRK and Kirkland pay bigger bonuses and are on the same pay scale, and MWE wasn't even the firm to kick off the salary increases...

Because specialty rankings for firms are irrelevant just like they are for schools.

Fair enough, thanks.

They were n.1 for virtually every category last year, too. Doesn't make any sense, and I'm actually surprised Vault let something like that happen, since it seems to highlight the fact that their rankings can easily be gamed.

The specialty rankings haven't updated for this year yet. Those rankings are still from last year.

[Jchance]

Did everyone miss Cooley's rise of its rank by 5 into v20?

After another round of salary raise, I am predicting Milbank at v6 or within v5. Com'on Milbank!

[Anonymous User]

SullCrom should raise to 230 and get that V5 back.

SullCrom got straight 1s from me for screwing over their summers during COVID (the only V10 to do so). Until they take some sort of pro-associate action (like initiating a raise) I’ll continue to do so. Plus, they’re kinda dicks anyway.

[NoLongerALurker]

Also was super early sending everyone back to office

[Anonymous User]

SullCrom should raise to 230 and get that V5 back.

SullCrom got straight 1s from me for screwing over their summers during COVID (the only V10 to do so). Until they take some sort of pro-associate action (like initiating a raise) I’ll continue to do so. Plus, they’re kinda dicks anyway.

Sorry, I couldn't find my answer through the search engine. What did S&C do during the pandemic?