Appellate AUSA or Biglaw? Forum

[Anonymous User]

(anon because this post clearly outs myself)

I am coming off of an A3 clerkship, and I have been offered a job as an appellate AUSA, starting salary 97k. But I also have an outstanding biglaw offer, coming in as a 2nd year with clerkship bonus. Which would you take?

[Anonymous User]

Appellate AUSA. Biglaw will be there for you after you've racked up some arguments and briefing experience.

[Anonymous User]

Appellate AUSA unless you really want/need the money.

[Anonymous User]

(anon because this post clearly outs myself)

I am coming off of an A3 clerkship, and I have been offered a job as an appellate AUSA, starting salary 97k. But I also have an outstanding biglaw offer, coming in as a 2nd year with clerkship bonus. Which would you take?

This is tough. I'm clerking now, and in the past few months, I've had 3-5 hour long callbacks with five biglaw firms, all of which have ghosted me or rejected me. The only offer I have now is bigfed at $120,000 starting ... but if I had gotten a V5 offer with bonus, it would have been extremely hard for me, because I need the money to pay off my loans and take care of my family.

Is your offer from a really, really good firm, or just a V50 or V100?

My bigfed position would have me come in as a generalist, and I think I would have wiggle room to become an AUSA or return to biglaw.

You would be doing nothing but civil appeals or criminal appeals. Is that what you want to do for the foreseeable future? IDK the exit of AUSA appellate--state SG?

OTOH, the absolute job security of AUSA is hard to turn down. I think it's impossible to be fired, and this has value of its own.

Also, even though I'm feeling down about my experience trying to lateral to biglaw, I understand that it's almost impossible to get my particular bigfed job, and I imagine it's the same for your AUSA Appellate job.

Maybe best to think about it that way. If you enter a specialized biglaw appellate practice, you'd need to do that for a few years, you'd reapply, but then you'd be competing with a hoarde of other applicants with COA creds and years of biglaw appellate exp. ...

[Anonymous User]

Not sure anyone can answer this for you. What do you actually want to do? Do you have a preference for one kind of work over the other? How much does the money matter (obviously all else being equal, more is better than less, but people have different circumstances/priorities)? What are your long term goals?

Personally I’d take the appellate AUSA gig in a heartbeat, but government salaries are still more than I ever made in my pre-top-law-schools.com and I like appellate work and autonomy and not being beholden to a client. As an appellate AUSA you will largely be in charge of managing your workload, very unlike big law. I know a lot of appellate AUSAs who’ve spent their entire career in the same gig because they like it so much. You will probably help the trial attorneys out with major pretrial litigation and thorny trial issues, and I’ve seen appellate attorneys do a fair amount of training, so you don’t have to be entirely isolated if you don’t want to be.

But you may not like those things. Maybe firm life appeals to you more.

I do also agree with the other comment that you can probably move from appellate AUSA to other stuff. I think there are overall a lot more biglaw gigs out there than there are appellate AUSA gigs, and while I think there’s far less of a revolving door btw USAOs and big firms than there used to be (or it may depend a bit on where you are and what experience you get), you should still have options if you decide you want to leave. (Re loans, keep in mind you’ll get PSLF after 10 years.)

[Anonymous User]

(anon because this post clearly outs myself)

I am coming off of an A3 clerkship, and I have been offered a job as an appellate AUSA, starting salary 97k. But I also have an outstanding biglaw offer, coming in as a 2nd year with clerkship bonus. Which would you take?

I personally would take the biglaw offer. You'll get paid much more and appellate AUSAs don't always have the same exit options as trial AUSAs or top specialist AUSAs.

[Anonymous User]

(anon because this post clearly outs myself)

I am coming off of an A3 clerkship, and I have been offered a job as an appellate AUSA, starting salary 97k. But I also have an outstanding biglaw offer, coming in as a 2nd year with clerkship bonus. Which would you take?

I personally would take the biglaw offer. You'll get paid much more and appellate AUSAs don't always have the same exit options as trial AUSAs or top specialist AUSAs.

This is insanity. Obviously the pay is higher. But so many people apply for these jobs (for honors alone there were over 1,500 for 150ish spots). If you have a A3 clerkship, big law will be there if you realize you want to go that route after a few years at DOJ.

[Anonymous User]

Appellate AUSA

[nealric]

(anon because this post clearly outs myself)

I am coming off of an A3 clerkship, and I have been offered a job as an appellate AUSA, starting salary 97k. But I also have an outstanding biglaw offer, coming in as a 2nd year with clerkship bonus. Which would you take?

I personally would take the biglaw offer. You'll get paid much more and appellate AUSAs don't always have the same exit options as trial AUSAs or top specialist AUSAs.

This is insanity. Obviously the pay is higher. But so many people apply for these jobs (for honors alone there were over 1,500 for 150ish spots). If you have a A3 clerkship, big law will be there if you realize you want to go that route after a few years at DOJ.

I think it's more about whether you really want to do appellate. While biglaw does do appellate, it tends to be a less profitable prestige practice. But for that reason, it's also hard to break into. People also find it desirable because it's considered more intellectual and sexier than your garden variety biglaw commercial lit.

[Anonymous User]

The appellate AUSA I knew had a very chill lifestyle, maximum job security, pretty interesting work, lots and lots of argument experience in the federal COA. Retired early and is now living in Florida at 60 writing novels.

It would be hard to turn that down if you are at all interested because there is no guarantee that the offer will be there again for you down the line. Only thing that would push me the other way is money, if I had big loan debt or if my family had financial needs etc.

[12YrsAnAssociate]

Appellate AUSA. Biglaw will be there for you after you've racked up some arguments and briefing experience.

I strongly disagree with this. Unless this is SDNY or CD. Cal., then we're not hiring 7th year litigators from the local USAO's appellate group. There are reasons to be an AUSA, but I don't think a pathway back to biglaw is necessarily one of them.

[Anonymous User]

Appellate AUSA. Biglaw will be there for you after you've racked up some arguments and briefing experience.

I strongly disagree with this. Unless this is SDNY or CD. Cal., then we're not hiring 7th year litigators from the local USAO's appellate group. There are reasons to be an AUSA, but I don't think a pathway back to biglaw is necessarily one of them.

Overall I mostly agree with this. I think there are 2 exceptions - if you have the qualifications to get biglaw now and you leave the USAO after a couple of years (not as a 7th year), you may well find something. Or you could stay until you’re senior enough to get hired away as some kind of specialist partner type, but that this will depend a lot (as suggested above) on where the USAO is and therefore what kind of work you get there. I do think people are too quick to assume that USAO work translates to a biglaw gig - lots of it doesn’t.

I think appellate AUSA is a dream lifestyle if you like appellate work and don’t feel compelled to work 60-80 hours weeks to prove you’re worthy, as long as the money isn’t going to be a dealbreaker.

[Anonymous User]

Appellate AUSA. Biglaw will be there for you after you've racked up some arguments and briefing experience.

I strongly disagree with this. Unless this is SDNY or CD. Cal., then we're not hiring 7th year litigators from the local USAO's appellate group. There are reasons to be an AUSA, but I don't think a pathway back to biglaw is necessarily one of them.

I will push back gently against this. Maybe what you could do is write:

I write to express my interest in joining Kirkland & Latham LLP as a litigation associate, WITH FLEXIBILITY AS TO CLASS CREDIT.

[Anonymous User]

Appellate AUSA. Biglaw will be there for you after you've racked up some arguments and briefing experience.

I strongly disagree with this. Unless this is SDNY or CD. Cal., then we're not hiring 7th year litigators from the local USAO's appellate group. There are reasons to be an AUSA, but I don't think a pathway back to biglaw is necessarily one of them.

Overall I mostly agree with this. I think there are 2 exceptions - if you have the qualifications to get biglaw now and you leave the USAO after a couple of years (not as a 7th year), you may well find something. Or you could stay until you’re senior enough to get hired away as some kind of specialist partner type, but that this will depend a lot (as suggested above) on where the USAO is and therefore what kind of work you get there. I do think people are too quick to assume that USAO work translates to a biglaw gig - lots of it doesn’t.

I think appellate AUSA is a dream lifestyle if you like appellate work and don’t feel compelled to work 60-80 hours weeks to prove you’re worthy, as long as the money isn’t going to be a dealbreaker.

Even at year 3 or 4, what skillset would an appellate AUSA have? This is very different from, say, the SDNY Securities and Commodities Fraud Taskforce.

[Anonymous User]

Appellate AUSA. Biglaw will be there for you after you've racked up some arguments and briefing experience.

I strongly disagree with this. Unless this is SDNY or CD. Cal., then we're not hiring 7th year litigators from the local USAO's appellate group. There are reasons to be an AUSA, but I don't think a pathway back to biglaw is necessarily one of them.

Overall I mostly agree with this. I think there are 2 exceptions - if you have the qualifications to get biglaw now and you leave the USAO after a couple of years (not as a 7th year), you may well find something. Or you could stay until you’re senior enough to get hired away as some kind of specialist partner type, but that this will depend a lot (as suggested above) on where the USAO is and therefore what kind of work you get there. I do think people are too quick to assume that USAO work translates to a biglaw gig - lots of it doesn’t.

I think appellate AUSA is a dream lifestyle if you like appellate work and don’t feel compelled to work 60-80 hours weeks to prove you’re worthy, as long as the money isn’t going to be a dealbreaker.

Even at year 3 or 4, what skillset would an appellate AUSA have? This is very different from, say, the SDNY Securities and Commodities Fraud Taskforce.

If you don’t think appellate work confers any skills I don’t imagine I’ll be able to convince you otherwise. And you may well be right that I’m overestimating their competitiveness. I just don’t think it would be a career killer if you jumped early. But I could be overly optimistic.

[Anonymous User]

Appellate work is incredibly difficult to get, so if you want it long-term, you would be a fool to turn down an AUSA appeals job. That’s the sort of job biglaw appeals lawyers want as exits. I also think there are likely some private-practice exits, e.g. a white-collar boutique I worked at would likely be interested, but it would probably be hard in major-market biglaw, which has little need for appeals lawyers.

[msk1111]

I am graduating law school this year and starting a COA clerkship in August. How did you get the appellate AUSA job? I’d love to do that.

[hdivschool]

It is hard to answer in a vacuum because it depends on your long term goals. Exit options from an appellate AUSA gig are limited, but it is a nice job with good job security.

[Anonymous User]

[Accidental anon please delete]

[SNightHighlights]

(anon because this post clearly outs myself)

I am coming off of an A3 clerkship, and I have been offered a job as an appellate AUSA, starting salary 97k. But I also have an outstanding biglaw offer, coming in as a 2nd year with clerkship bonus. Which would you take?

Echo the prior posters - tough to decide in a vacuum. Are you 24-25 KJD? Then you could take the AUSA job and go do some cool stuff for 3 years. It's pretty likely that you will find a landing spot in Biglaw if you want it, and you'll be in your late 20s with plenty of time left to rake in some Biglaw bucks. Completely different calculus if you would be nearing 40 under the same circumstances. The money is also a significant consideration. Sometimes people try to downplay it because of the taxes and COL, but the fact is that you'll make much more money in Biglaw - there is a very different perspective on life when you can see $500k sitting in a savings/investment account after a surprisingly short amount of time. That said, the Biglaw lifestyle is pretty rough. It's anything but a 9-5 job and the odds of you making it more than 5 years are slim (though 5 years in Biglaw will net you a cool $1.5M pre-tax). 97k is pretty low comparatively - but work-life-balance and fulfillment is also pretty important.

There's no right answer here and no magic bullet - you should really just do some soul searching about what you're looking for in a life and in a career.

[Anonymous User]

OP here, responding to a few questions:

Debt load: 100k
Family Obligations: Minimal (no kids)
Life goals: To be happy in the work I do while still being able to afford things like NFL Redzone without really thinking about it.
Age: 25-30, KJD.

[temp69420]

OP here, responding to a few questions:

Debt load: 100k
Family Obligations: Minimal (no kids)
Life goals: To be happy in the work I do while still being able to afford things like NFL Redzone without really thinking about it.
Age: 25-30, KJD.

Personally, I'd take the AUSA job. In biglaw you'll have far more than enough money for NFL redzone, but there's a good probability that you won't be happy and you won't have as much time as you want to actually watch the nfl. In the ausa job there's some chance you'll end up unhappy with the money, but also a far higher chance you'll like the work.

[Anonymous User]

OP here, responding to a few questions:

Debt load: 100k
Family Obligations: Minimal (no kids)
Life goals: To be happy in the work I do while still being able to afford things like NFL Redzone without really thinking about it.
Age: 25-30, KJD.

Personally, I find that the AUSA salary lets you live perfectly comfortably - the increases add up pretty quickly. Caveat is that live in a lower COL area and not only do I not have kids, I don't want them. So if I were trying to get by in NYC or SF and wanted to plan for kids and their education I might weigh things differently. It can also depend on if you're partnered and what your partner's income/goals are - my spouse makes about 40% less than I do, but does plan to work forever, and we (obviously) have no plans for either of us to be a SAHparent. That said, though, it's a relatively kid-friendly job and I know tons of AUSAs with kids, all of whom seem to do fine financially (some of them have come from biglaw and/or have spouses in higher-paying jobs, but plenty don't).

A lot of this boils down to your goals for your kids, though (if your dealbreakers are that your kid MUST go to the best private school from K-up, and commit to every expensive extracurricular around, and have their college education paid for at any school they want, all while taking vacations to Europe every year etc., your baseline needs will be higher; most of the AUSAs' kids I know go to public schools, for instance, but we're in an area with great schools).

Also, if you commit to PSLF and are on an income-based repayment plan, that helps in terms of standard of living. I'm about to get my debt (originally about the same as yours) paid off via PSLF, but my office also offers a loan repayment assistance plan that I've taken advantage of a couple of years (DOJ has one, too, but it's not really geared toward PSLF in that it requires you to match payments so it didn't make sense to me).

I do think AUSA is one of the more sustainable jobs for long-term happiness - I'm not saying that everyone is guaranteed to love it, but people who don't like it tend to get out relatively quickly (you likely don't have golden handcuffs sucking you in), and the people who do like it stay forever (or move up in other federal jobs). I know a ton of lifers and AUSAs are almost obnoxious about congratulating themselves on having the best law job ever (maybe everyone who's happy in their law job does this, but I haven't heard much about anyone in biglaw saying this, even partners, though happy to be contradicted).

[Anonymous User]

Life goals: To be happy in the work I do while still being able to afford things like NFL Redzone without really thinking about it.

Damn, this is a perfect way to say what I've been trying to say for years. If I can pay for Sunday Ticket and MLB.TV without thinking twice then I know my job pays enough.

[msk1111]

How did you get the appellate AUSA job? I just graduated law school and will starting a COA clerkship in the fall and would love to do something like that.