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crazywafflez

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Re: Appellate AUSA or Biglaw?

Post by crazywafflez » Fri May 27, 2022 2:13 pm

msk1111 wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 1:38 pm
How did you get the appellate AUSA job? I just graduated law school and will starting a COA clerkship in the fall and would love to do something like that.
Frankly, these gigs are very hard to get. You should ask your judge about connections and tell them this is the career path you are interested in and go meet with folks.

msk1111

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Re: Appellate AUSA or Biglaw?

Post by msk1111 » Fri May 27, 2022 2:26 pm

Thanks, good to know! Still competitive if you have a COA clerkship with a semi-feeder and all the resume bells and whistles necessary to get that clerkship? Do you apply with specific USAOs or DOJ Honors?

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Re: Appellate AUSA or Biglaw?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri May 27, 2022 4:05 pm

msk1111 wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 2:26 pm
Thanks, good to know! Still competitive if you have a COA clerkship with a semi-feeder and all the resume bells and whistles necessary to get that clerkship? Do you apply with specific USAOs or DOJ Honors?
As to your second question, both. If you go from law school —> COA, you’re eligible to apply through Honors. (If you have any post-bar employment that’s not fellowship-related or a clerkship, you’re not.) That said, Honors positions are usually described as generic line attorney positions (and the border districts at least need line attorneys, not appellate), though I can’t say no USAO would ever put an Honors hire into appellate - I just think it would be unusual.

Otherwise, you apply to specific USAOs. However, most require at least 3 years of experience for entry level jobs. Those that don’t usually require 1 year, though a clerkship counts. Where there is an experience requirement it is hard and fast, no point applying if you don’t have it because they won’t even review your application. (The District of Nevada is currently hiring for an appellate position if you want to go see what the posting looks like.)

Also, most USAOs only accept applications for posted openings when they actually need someone. Some do take rolling applications, but most don’t. So for specific offices, you will need to look for postings, usually through USAjobs. (I don’t know how the offices who take rolling apps handle the timing of hiring - generally an office needs authorization from EOUSA to hire so I don’t know whether they seek authorization when they find someone they like, or they save up applications till they have an opening, or something else). I mention this just because it can be hard to get an opening to line up with finishing a clerkship, though obv as the OP shows, not impossible.

As to your first question, you’re certainly competitive as a baseline. But there are usually quite a lot of competitive applicants so I agree that talking to your judge and making connections are really important. There are also very few appellate openings because there are always far fewer appellate attorneys in each office (if I had to guess, it’s maybe 5-10% of total number of attorneys in the office); some offices expect the line attorney who tried the case to handle the appeal where possible, and of course trials are much less common than pleas, which limit appeals.

msk1111

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Re: Appellate AUSA or Biglaw?

Post by msk1111 » Fri May 27, 2022 8:30 pm

Thank you for your response! That’s very helpful.

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 4:05 pm
msk1111 wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 2:26 pm
Thanks, good to know! Still competitive if you have a COA clerkship with a semi-feeder and all the resume bells and whistles necessary to get that clerkship? Do you apply with specific USAOs or DOJ Honors?
As to your second question, both. If you go from law school —> COA, you’re eligible to apply through Honors. (If you have any post-bar employment that’s not fellowship-related or a clerkship, you’re not.) That said, Honors positions are usually described as generic line attorney positions (and the border districts at least need line attorneys, not appellate), though I can’t say no USAO would ever put an Honors hire into appellate - I just think it would be unusual.

Otherwise, you apply to specific USAOs. However, most require at least 3 years of experience for entry level jobs. Those that don’t usually require 1 year, though a clerkship counts. Where there is an experience requirement it is hard and fast, no point applying if you don’t have it because they won’t even review your application. (The District of Nevada is currently hiring for an appellate position if you want to go see what the posting looks like.)

Also, most USAOs only accept applications for posted openings when they actually need someone. Some do take rolling applications, but most don’t. So for specific offices, you will need to look for postings, usually through USAjobs. (I don’t know how the offices who take rolling apps handle the timing of hiring - generally an office needs authorization from EOUSA to hire so I don’t know whether they seek authorization when they find someone they like, or they save up applications till they have an opening, or something else). I mention this just because it can be hard to get an opening to line up with finishing a clerkship, though obv as the OP shows, not impossible.

As to your first question, you’re certainly competitive as a baseline. But there are usually quite a lot of competitive applicants so I agree that talking to your judge and making connections are really important. There are also very few appellate openings because there are always far fewer appellate attorneys in each office (if I had to guess, it’s maybe 5-10% of total number of attorneys in the office); some offices expect the line attorney who tried the case to handle the appeal where possible, and of course trials are much less common than pleas, which limit appeals.

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Re: Appellate AUSA or Biglaw?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri May 27, 2022 9:41 pm

msk1111 wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 1:38 pm
How did you get the appellate AUSA job? I just graduated law school and will starting a COA clerkship in the fall and would love to do something like that.
I'm not OP, but check the DOJ website like a hawk for open attorney positions. I think you could subscribe to their mailing list as well.

Of course, each of these job listings will tell you there's exactly one job opening.

See, e.g.,

https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/j ... late-staff

You literally just send your cover letter, resume, and writing sample to a listed contact.

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lavarman84

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Re: Appellate AUSA or Biglaw?

Post by lavarman84 » Sun May 29, 2022 1:29 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 4:05 pm
msk1111 wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 2:26 pm
Thanks, good to know! Still competitive if you have a COA clerkship with a semi-feeder and all the resume bells and whistles necessary to get that clerkship? Do you apply with specific USAOs or DOJ Honors?
As to your second question, both. If you go from law school —> COA, you’re eligible to apply through Honors. (If you have any post-bar employment that’s not fellowship-related or a clerkship, you’re not.) That said, Honors positions are usually described as generic line attorney positions (and the border districts at least need line attorneys, not appellate), though I can’t say no USAO would ever put an Honors hire into appellate - I just think it would be unusual.

Otherwise, you apply to specific USAOs. However, most require at least 3 years of experience for entry level jobs. Those that don’t usually require 1 year, though a clerkship counts. Where there is an experience requirement it is hard and fast, no point applying if you don’t have it because they won’t even review your application. (The District of Nevada is currently hiring for an appellate position if you want to go see what the posting looks like.)

Also, most USAOs only accept applications for posted openings when they actually need someone. Some do take rolling applications, but most don’t. So for specific offices, you will need to look for postings, usually through USAjobs. (I don’t know how the offices who take rolling apps handle the timing of hiring - generally an office needs authorization from EOUSA to hire so I don’t know whether they seek authorization when they find someone they like, or they save up applications till they have an opening, or something else). I mention this just because it can be hard to get an opening to line up with finishing a clerkship, though obv as the OP shows, not impossible.

As to your first question, you’re certainly competitive as a baseline. But there are usually quite a lot of competitive applicants so I agree that talking to your judge and making connections are really important. There are also very few appellate openings because there are always far fewer appellate attorneys in each office (if I had to guess, it’s maybe 5-10% of total number of attorneys in the office); some offices expect the line attorney who tried the case to handle the appeal where possible, and of course trials are much less common than pleas, which limit appeals.
I'll say that it does happen. I interviewed for an appellate AUSA position through Honors. Although, technically, the position was going to involve some trial-level work too. One other thing to keep in mind is to look for jobs in state SG offices. Some will hire straight out of a clerkship, especially if it's a prestigious COA clerkship. The work can be very interesting.

Plus, since you need a few years of experience before you can apply for most appellate AUSA jobs, it'll give you a couple of years of legitimate appellate work where you're basically running your own cases and getting to work on complex, high-level work as a part of a team. (You may even get to assist in SCOTUS-level work.)

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Re: Appellate AUSA or Biglaw?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun May 29, 2022 11:01 am

lavarman84 wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 1:29 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 4:05 pm
msk1111 wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 2:26 pm
Thanks, good to know! Still competitive if you have a COA clerkship with a semi-feeder and all the resume bells and whistles necessary to get that clerkship? Do you apply with specific USAOs or DOJ Honors?
As to your second question, both. If you go from law school —> COA, you’re eligible to apply through Honors. (If you have any post-bar employment that’s not fellowship-related or a clerkship, you’re not.) That said, Honors positions are usually described as generic line attorney positions (and the border districts at least need line attorneys, not appellate), though I can’t say no USAO would ever put an Honors hire into appellate - I just think it would be unusual.

Otherwise, you apply to specific USAOs. However, most require at least 3 years of experience for entry level jobs. Those that don’t usually require 1 year, though a clerkship counts. Where there is an experience requirement it is hard and fast, no point applying if you don’t have it because they won’t even review your application. (The District of Nevada is currently hiring for an appellate position if you want to go see what the posting looks like.)

Also, most USAOs only accept applications for posted openings when they actually need someone. Some do take rolling applications, but most don’t. So for specific offices, you will need to look for postings, usually through USAjobs. (I don’t know how the offices who take rolling apps handle the timing of hiring - generally an office needs authorization from EOUSA to hire so I don’t know whether they seek authorization when they find someone they like, or they save up applications till they have an opening, or something else). I mention this just because it can be hard to get an opening to line up with finishing a clerkship, though obv as the OP shows, not impossible.

As to your first question, you’re certainly competitive as a baseline. But there are usually quite a lot of competitive applicants so I agree that talking to your judge and making connections are really important. There are also very few appellate openings because there are always far fewer appellate attorneys in each office (if I had to guess, it’s maybe 5-10% of total number of attorneys in the office); some offices expect the line attorney who tried the case to handle the appeal where possible, and of course trials are much less common than pleas, which limit appeals.
I'll say that it does happen. I interviewed for an appellate AUSA position through Honors. Although, technically, the position was going to involve some trial-level work too. One other thing to keep in mind is to look for jobs in state SG offices. Some will hire straight out of a clerkship, especially if it's a prestigious COA clerkship. The work can be very interesting.

Plus, since you need a few years of experience before you can apply for most appellate AUSA jobs, it'll give you a couple of years of legitimate appellate work where you're basically running your own cases and getting to work on complex, high-level work as a part of a team. (You may even get to assist in SCOTUS-level work.)
Do most states have an SG office? Some states that I’ve been looking at where my COA clerkship is located (think Northeast) don’t specifically have an SG office, but I’m interested in appellate work for left-leaning states after clerking. Is there a list of SG offices out there somewhere?

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Re: Appellate AUSA or Biglaw?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun May 29, 2022 11:16 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 11:01 am
lavarman84 wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 1:29 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 4:05 pm
msk1111 wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 2:26 pm
Thanks, good to know! Still competitive if you have a COA clerkship with a semi-feeder and all the resume bells and whistles necessary to get that clerkship? Do you apply with specific USAOs or DOJ Honors?
As to your second question, both. If you go from law school —> COA, you’re eligible to apply through Honors. (If you have any post-bar employment that’s not fellowship-related or a clerkship, you’re not.) That said, Honors positions are usually described as generic line attorney positions (and the border districts at least need line attorneys, not appellate), though I can’t say no USAO would ever put an Honors hire into appellate - I just think it would be unusual.

Otherwise, you apply to specific USAOs. However, most require at least 3 years of experience for entry level jobs. Those that don’t usually require 1 year, though a clerkship counts. Where there is an experience requirement it is hard and fast, no point applying if you don’t have it because they won’t even review your application. (The District of Nevada is currently hiring for an appellate position if you want to go see what the posting looks like.)

Also, most USAOs only accept applications for posted openings when they actually need someone. Some do take rolling applications, but most don’t. So for specific offices, you will need to look for postings, usually through USAjobs. (I don’t know how the offices who take rolling apps handle the timing of hiring - generally an office needs authorization from EOUSA to hire so I don’t know whether they seek authorization when they find someone they like, or they save up applications till they have an opening, or something else). I mention this just because it can be hard to get an opening to line up with finishing a clerkship, though obv as the OP shows, not impossible.

As to your first question, you’re certainly competitive as a baseline. But there are usually quite a lot of competitive applicants so I agree that talking to your judge and making connections are really important. There are also very few appellate openings because there are always far fewer appellate attorneys in each office (if I had to guess, it’s maybe 5-10% of total number of attorneys in the office); some offices expect the line attorney who tried the case to handle the appeal where possible, and of course trials are much less common than pleas, which limit appeals.
I'll say that it does happen. I interviewed for an appellate AUSA position through Honors. Although, technically, the position was going to involve some trial-level work too. One other thing to keep in mind is to look for jobs in state SG offices. Some will hire straight out of a clerkship, especially if it's a prestigious COA clerkship. The work can be very interesting.

Plus, since you need a few years of experience before you can apply for most appellate AUSA jobs, it'll give you a couple of years of legitimate appellate work where you're basically running your own cases and getting to work on complex, high-level work as a part of a team. (You may even get to assist in SCOTUS-level work.)
Do most states have an SG office? Some states that I’ve been looking at where my COA clerkship is located (think Northeast) don’t specifically have an SG office, but I’m interested in appellate work for left-leaning states after clerking. Is there a list of SG offices out there somewhere?
If you're on the 7th, clerking in a chambers next to a weird statue, then your judge has good connections to the Indiana SG.

lavarman84

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Re: Appellate AUSA or Biglaw?

Post by lavarman84 » Sun May 29, 2022 5:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 11:01 am
Do most states have an SG office? Some states that I’ve been looking at where my COA clerkship is located (think Northeast) don’t specifically have an SG office, but I’m interested in appellate work for left-leaning states after clerking. Is there a list of SG offices out there somewhere?
The vast majority of states have a SG. How big their office is differs a lot from state to state. It's very competitive to land with a left-leaning state, but it sounds like you have pretty stellar credentials. Plus, some offices have fellowships. You may have to apply more broadly (if you're geographically flexible) because there aren't a ton of spots available nationwide.

It's sometimes not very easy to figure out which states have them and which states don't (might take a lot of googling and linkedin effort, as some states have only recently added a SG). I know New York and Massachusetts definitely do in the Northeast. Frankly, the best thing you could do might be to look at some of the offices that would interest you and then see if you could connect with lawyers there to talk to them about their practice. When there are openings, they don't always advertise them. So having somebody on the inside to reach out to during your clerkship is useful, if it sounds like something that interests you.

But yes, you're right that doing appellate work is still an option even if the state doesn't have a SG's office. There's still going to be that same sort of role somewhere in the state hierarchy.

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Re: Appellate AUSA or Biglaw?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun May 29, 2022 5:56 pm

lavarman84 wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 5:07 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 11:01 am
Do most states have an SG office? Some states that I’ve been looking at where my COA clerkship is located (think Northeast) don’t specifically have an SG office, but I’m interested in appellate work for left-leaning states after clerking. Is there a list of SG offices out there somewhere?
The vast majority of states have a SG. How big their office is differs a lot from state to state. It's very competitive to land with a left-leaning state, but it sounds like you have pretty stellar credentials. Plus, some offices have fellowships. You may have to apply more broadly (if you're geographically flexible) because there aren't a ton of spots available nationwide.

It's sometimes not very easy to figure out which states have them and which states don't (might take a lot of googling and linkedin effort, as some states have only recently added a SG). I know New York and Massachusetts definitely do in the Northeast. Frankly, the best thing you could do might be to look at some of the offices that would interest you and then see if you could connect with lawyers there to talk to them about their practice. When there are openings, they don't always advertise them. So having somebody on the inside to reach out to during your clerkship is useful, if it sounds like something that interests you.

But yes, you're right that doing appellate work is still an option even if the state doesn't have a SG's office. There's still going to be that same sort of role somewhere in the state hierarchy.
Awesome advice. Thank you!

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Re: Appellate AUSA or Biglaw?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun May 29, 2022 6:43 pm

Red states have really led the charge with SGs, though, and for blue states I think only CA, DC, WA, and NY have operations comparable to e.g. Alabama or Texas. I believe that CO also has an SG fellowship but I feel like you don’t see them often on big cases. Some states have someone with the SG title but not really an SG’s office.

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