IP Transactions at a v10 or General Corporate at v50? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 3L and I summered last summer at a v50 in their corporate group. Didn't mind the work but kind of chose corporate as a default during OCI as I felt it would increase my chances of getting an offer (T14, average grades). I really like that corporate work is broad and has good in-house opportunities.

I just interviewed for an IP Transactions group at a v10 and got the offer and am heavily considering taking it. I have a strong interest in tech work but wasn't sure about a few things:

1. Is this a growing practice area? Is demand for lawyers expected to increase? Decline?

2. Are there robust in-house opportunities for IPT lawyers? Or is this area "too niche" and the opportunities are limited (like Tax)?

3. Going off #2 - How does the compensation for in-house opportunities for Tech Transactions lawyers compare to those of general corporate? What do those opportunities look like?

4. What are hours at an IPT practice at a law firm like? Predictable?

I'm leaning towards taking it because I have a strong interest in Tech and feel I would really enjoy the work but I don't want to screw myself into an extremely niche practice area with no future outside of law firms.

I have to give an answer by the end of the month and I also have to study for the bar so anything to relieve my stress levels right now is greatly appreciated

[existentialcrisis]

I'm a 3L and I summered last summer at a v50 in their corporate group. Didn't mind the work but kind of chose corporate as a default during OCI as I felt it would increase my chances of getting an offer (T14, average grades). I really like that corporate work is broad and has good in-house opportunities.

I just interviewed for an IP Transactions group at a v10 and got the offer and am heavily considering taking it. I have a strong interest in tech work but wasn't sure about a few things:

1. Is this a growing practice area? Is demand for lawyers expected to increase? Decline?

2. Are there robust in-house opportunities for IPT lawyers? Or is this area "too niche" and the opportunities are limited (like Tax)?

3. Going off #2 - How does the compensation for in-house opportunities for Tech Transactions lawyers compare to those of general corporate? What do those opportunities look like?

4. What are hours at an IPT practice at a law firm like? Predictable?

I'm leaning towards taking it because I have a strong interest in Tech and feel I would really enjoy the work but I don't want to screw myself into an extremely niche practice area with no future outside of law firms.

I have to give an answer by the end of the month and I also have to study for the bar so anything to relieve my stress levels right now is greatly appreciated

Do you know if the IP group is primarily just deal support? I suspect it might be if it’s a v10.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 3L and I summered last summer at a v50 in their corporate group. Didn't mind the work but kind of chose corporate as a default during OCI as I felt it would increase my chances of getting an offer (T14, average grades). I really like that corporate work is broad and has good in-house opportunities.

I just interviewed for an IP Transactions group at a v10 and got the offer and am heavily considering taking it. I have a strong interest in tech work but wasn't sure about a few things:

1. Is this a growing practice area? Is demand for lawyers expected to increase? Decline?

2. Are there robust in-house opportunities for IPT lawyers? Or is this area "too niche" and the opportunities are limited (like Tax)?

3. Going off #2 - How does the compensation for in-house opportunities for Tech Transactions lawyers compare to those of general corporate? What do those opportunities look like?

4. What are hours at an IPT practice at a law firm like? Predictable?

I'm leaning towards taking it because I have a strong interest in Tech and feel I would really enjoy the work but I don't want to screw myself into an extremely niche practice area with no future outside of law firms.

I have to give an answer by the end of the month and I also have to study for the bar so anything to relieve my stress levels right now is greatly appreciated

Do you know if the IP group is primarily just deal support? I suspect it might be if it’s a v10.

At K&E it's pretty much all deal support in the IP and Tech Transactions groups. Despite that, the exit options there still seem to be very, very good, you'd just want to factor in the potential lifestyle implications.

[Anonymous User]

Would IP transactions at a WSGR/Cooley/Fenwick/Gunderson be better?

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 3L and I summered last summer at a v50 in their corporate group. Didn't mind the work but kind of chose corporate as a default during OCI as I felt it would increase my chances of getting an offer (T14, average grades). I really like that corporate work is broad and has good in-house opportunities.

I just interviewed for an IP Transactions group at a v10 and got the offer and am heavily considering taking it. I have a strong interest in tech work but wasn't sure about a few things:

1. Is this a growing practice area? Is demand for lawyers expected to increase? Decline?

2. Are there robust in-house opportunities for IPT lawyers? Or is this area "too niche" and the opportunities are limited (like Tax)?

3. Going off #2 - How does the compensation for in-house opportunities for Tech Transactions lawyers compare to those of general corporate? What do those opportunities look like?

4. What are hours at an IPT practice at a law firm like? Predictable?

I'm leaning towards taking it because I have a strong interest in Tech and feel I would really enjoy the work but I don't want to screw myself into an extremely niche practice area with no future outside of law firms.

I have to give an answer by the end of the month and I also have to study for the bar so anything to relieve my stress levels right now is greatly appreciated

Do you know if the IP group is primarily just deal support? I suspect it might be if it’s a v10.

At K&E it's pretty much all deal support in the IP and Tech Transactions groups. Despite that, the exit options there still seem to be very, very good, you'd just want to factor in the potential lifestyle implications.

OP here - Yes it is mostly deal support although they handle some small(er) deals on their own, per the partner that interviewed me. What do you mean by "lifestyle implications"?

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 3L and I summered last summer at a v50 in their corporate group. Didn't mind the work but kind of chose corporate as a default during OCI as I felt it would increase my chances of getting an offer (T14, average grades). I really like that corporate work is broad and has good in-house opportunities.

I just interviewed for an IP Transactions group at a v10 and got the offer and am heavily considering taking it. I have a strong interest in tech work but wasn't sure about a few things:

1. Is this a growing practice area? Is demand for lawyers expected to increase? Decline?

2. Are there robust in-house opportunities for IPT lawyers? Or is this area "too niche" and the opportunities are limited (like Tax)?

3. Going off #2 - How does the compensation for in-house opportunities for Tech Transactions lawyers compare to those of general corporate? What do those opportunities look like?

4. What are hours at an IPT practice at a law firm like? Predictable?

I'm leaning towards taking it because I have a strong interest in Tech and feel I would really enjoy the work but I don't want to screw myself into an extremely niche practice area with no future outside of law firms.

I have to give an answer by the end of the month and I also have to study for the bar so anything to relieve my stress levels right now is greatly appreciated

Do you know if the IP group is primarily just deal support? I suspect it might be if it’s a v10.

At K&E it's pretty much all deal support in the IP and Tech Transactions groups. Despite that, the exit options there still seem to be very, very good, you'd just want to factor in the potential lifestyle implications.

OP here - Yes it is mostly deal support although they handle some small(er) deals on their own, per the partner that interviewed me. What do you mean by "lifestyle implications"?

If you're supporting an M&A deal (e.g., IP diligence and writing that part of the diligence memo), you might be at the mercy of M&A deadlines vs what more conventional IP-specific timelines and job demands look like. To be clear this would be totally firm/group dependent - just something to feel out.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 3L and I summered last summer at a v50 in their corporate group. Didn't mind the work but kind of chose corporate as a default during OCI as I felt it would increase my chances of getting an offer (T14, average grades). I really like that corporate work is broad and has good in-house opportunities.

I just interviewed for an IP Transactions group at a v10 and got the offer and am heavily considering taking it. I have a strong interest in tech work but wasn't sure about a few things:

1. Is this a growing practice area? Is demand for lawyers expected to increase? Decline?

2. Are there robust in-house opportunities for IPT lawyers? Or is this area "too niche" and the opportunities are limited (like Tax)?

3. Going off #2 - How does the compensation for in-house opportunities for Tech Transactions lawyers compare to those of general corporate? What do those opportunities look like?

4. What are hours at an IPT practice at a law firm like? Predictable?

I'm leaning towards taking it because I have a strong interest in Tech and feel I would really enjoy the work but I don't want to screw myself into an extremely niche practice area with no future outside of law firms.

I have to give an answer by the end of the month and I also have to study for the bar so anything to relieve my stress levels right now is greatly appreciated

Do you know if the IP group is primarily just deal support? I suspect it might be if it’s a v10.

At K&E it's pretty much all deal support in the IP and Tech Transactions groups. Despite that, the exit options there still seem to be very, very good, you'd just want to factor in the potential lifestyle implications.

OP here - Yes it is mostly deal support although they handle some small(er) deals on their own, per the partner that interviewed me. What do you mean by "lifestyle implications"?

If you're supporting an M&A deal (e.g., IP diligence and writing that part of the diligence memo), you might be at the mercy of M&A deadlines vs what more conventional IP-specific timelines and job demands look like. To be clear this would be totally firm/group dependent - just something to feel out.

OP again - What are more conventional IP-specific jobs/practices? Not deal support but stand alone IP groups?

Sorry if these questions are very basic. The whole industry is brand new to me.

[Anonymous User]

There’s no question that you should take the IP transactions group, even if it’s just deal support. You can always lateral to a Bay Area-based firm (Cooley, Gunderson, Fenwick, etc.) and actually do commercial work. I used to be in tech trans at a major Bay Area firm and am now in a great in house position. This is all due to the strength of my group/firm.

[Anonymous User]

There’s no question that you should take the IP transactions group, even if it’s just deal support. You can always lateral to a Bay Area-based firm (Cooley, Gunderson, Fenwick, etc.) and actually do commercial work. I used to be in tech trans at a major Bay Area firm and am now in a great in house position. This is all due to the strength of my group/firm.

OP - thanks for this. Am I only going to be able to get a great in-house position if I end up lateraling? Is it bad to "set myself up" to lateral?

Also, do you mind speaking to the general comp and hours of your in house position? Is it at a FAANG?

[Anonymous User]

this depends on the v10. at mine, for instance, the ip group (despite what they will tell you) is, unless you're one of a handful of chosen associates, exclusively deal support.

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

this depends on the v10. at mine, for instance, the ip group (despite what they will tell you) is, unless you're one of a handful of chosen associates, exclusively deal support.

Are there the same/similar good exits for IP deal support as there are for Tech Transactions?

[Anonymous User]

Not directly on point but I've heard FAANG is on the higher end of in-house comp. Can anyone confirm?

[Anonymous User]

Not directly on point but I've heard FAANG is on the higher end of in-house comp. Can anyone confirm?

Still not as much as their software engineers, who are probably 5+ years younger at that point.

[Anonymous User]

Since you're not thrilled about returning to your summer firm in general corporate, I think you should take the IP gig. The V10 brand will give you portability for when you want to make a move. It is fine to plan for a couple years there, then make a lateral move to another firm, then go in house, etc.

IP Transactions groups in biglaw are still very much biglaw. I imagine at a V10 it will mostly be deal support, which means you will get very good at diligence (useful experience). There will be crazy time demands during certain deals. But general corporate definitely has the most frequent late nights because they incorporate all of the specialists' comments and control the deal documents. While you'll probably have a better life than corporate folks, everyone works hard.

Right now, IP Transactions is definitely an efficient path to go in house. There are lots of jobs at tech companies that hire IP Transactions lawyers. It would be a very easy and predictable path to go from V10 IP Transactions to a Silicon Valley firm's Tech Transactions group to FAANG in house. You may be able to skip that middle step, too, but as another poster suggested, FAANG and other companies often hire out of certain groups.

FWIW, my fiancee was in house commercial / products counsel at FAANG for a while. It's easier than biglaw for most of the year, and FAANG throws out big numbers. But the actual received compensation is lower than you'd think (lots of stock options never vest) and there can be difficulty advancing. I suppose folks are attracted to in house positions simply because they aren't biglaw, and biglaw is scary. But if you find the right group in biglaw, it really isn't so bad. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

Lastly, I disagree with OP's statement that Tax is "too niche" with limited opportunities. Every area of practice is its own niche, and tax folks are in demand more than most other lawyers. IP Transactions is just as much as a specialist group as Tax, Employee Benefits, etc. Some Tech Transactions groups run their own deals, but even then, it ain't broad like corporate...

Good luck!

[d39524s]

Since you're not thrilled about returning to your summer firm in general corporate, I think you should take the IP gig. The V10 brand will give you portability for when you want to make a move. It is fine to plan for a couple years there, then make a lateral move to another firm, then go in house, etc.

IP Transactions groups in biglaw are still very much biglaw. I imagine at a V10 it will mostly be deal support, which means you will get very good at diligence (useful experience). There will be crazy time demands during certain deals. But general corporate definitely has the most frequent late nights because they incorporate all of the specialists' comments and control the deal documents. While you'll probably have a better life than corporate folks, everyone works hard.

Right now, IP Transactions is definitely an efficient path to go in house. There are lots of jobs at tech companies that hire IP Transactions lawyers. It would be a very easy and predictable path to go from V10 IP Transactions to a Silicon Valley firm's Tech Transactions group to FAANG in house. You may be able to skip that middle step, too, but as another poster suggested, FAANG and other companies often hire out of certain groups.

FWIW, my fiancee was in house commercial / products counsel at FAANG for a while. It's easier than biglaw for most of the year, and FAANG throws out big numbers. But the actual received compensation is lower than you'd think (lots of stock options never vest) and there can be difficulty advancing. I suppose folks are attracted to in house positions simply because they aren't biglaw, and biglaw is scary. But if you find the right group in biglaw, it really isn't so bad. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

Lastly, I disagree with OP's statement that Tax is "too niche" with limited opportunities. Every area of practice is its own niche, and tax folks are in demand more than most other lawyers. IP Transactions is just as much as a specialist group as Tax, Employee Benefits, etc. Some Tech Transactions groups run their own deals, but even then, it ain't broad like corporate...

Good luck!

Did your fiancee end up going back to biglaw? Are you in biglaw now?

[Anonymous User]

Yes and yes. Cash is nice.

[d39524s]

Yes and yes. Cash is nice.

Cash is indeed nice What year are you both?

[Anonymous User]

Fiancee is counsel, I'm associate.

[Anonymous User]

Since you're not thrilled about returning to your summer firm in general corporate, I think you should take the IP gig. The V10 brand will give you portability for when you want to make a move. It is fine to plan for a couple years there, then make a lateral move to another firm, then go in house, etc.

IP Transactions groups in biglaw are still very much biglaw. I imagine at a V10 it will mostly be deal support, which means you will get very good at diligence (useful experience). There will be crazy time demands during certain deals. But general corporate definitely has the most frequent late nights because they incorporate all of the specialists' comments and control the deal documents. While you'll probably have a better life than corporate folks, everyone works hard.

Right now, IP Transactions is definitely an efficient path to go in house. There are lots of jobs at tech companies that hire IP Transactions lawyers. It would be a very easy and predictable path to go from V10 IP Transactions to a Silicon Valley firm's Tech Transactions group to FAANG in house. You may be able to skip that middle step, too, but as another poster suggested, FAANG and other companies often hire out of certain groups.

FWIW, my fiancee was in house commercial / products counsel at FAANG for a while. It's easier than biglaw for most of the year, and FAANG throws out big numbers. But the actual received compensation is lower than you'd think (lots of stock options never vest) and there can be difficulty advancing. I suppose folks are attracted to in house positions simply because they aren't biglaw, and biglaw is scary. But if you find the right group in biglaw, it really isn't so bad. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

Lastly, I disagree with OP's statement that Tax is "too niche" with limited opportunities. Every area of practice is its own niche, and tax folks are in demand more than most other lawyers. IP Transactions is just as much as a specialist group as Tax, Employee Benefits, etc. Some Tech Transactions groups run their own deals, but even then, it ain't broad like corporate...

Good luck!

This is extremely helpful. Thank you. Would you mind giving some sense of what the comp is like (general base salary and bonus) in house at a FAANG? Is it hard to get?

[Anonymous User]

Former NYC V10 associate in IP/Tech Trans, now in-house commercial counsel at non-FAANG SV tech company.

-- IP/Tech Trans at most v10s is going to be basically 80% deal support and 20% "standalone" work. Partners will try to convince you that it's 50/50 or something like that, but take that with a massive grain of salt unless you have it on good authority that's the case (and is the case for ALL associates, not just their favorite superstar).

-- The 80% deal support will depend on what your firm's main corporate specialties are. If you're at a big M&A shop, then you'll mostly support M&A. If your firm does a ton of capital markets/financings, you'll be supporting that.

-- The 20% "standalone" work will likely comprise of a small portion of "sexy" tech/data/pharma licensing or bespoke commercial contracting that the firm is specifically engaged by a client on (usually reserved for more senior associates, or maybe their favorite star junior associates) and then the rest will be random ancillary/overflow drafting work (i.e., drafting a IP license as part of an M&A carve-out deal, drafting a bunch of assignment agreements as part of a corporate reorg led by your bankruptcy team).

-- For purposes of going in-house from a v10 IP/Tech Trans practice, the order of precedent for useful experience is as follows: Standalone commercial/IP and data licensing work >>>> M&A IP support >> Capital Market/Financing IP support. Seriously, M&A support usually sucks more, but capital markets/financing support is trash for moving in-house.

-- If you want to go in house at a tech company, you'll be at a disadvantage as compared to others who went to a practice that emphasizes more standalone work (e.g., Gunderson and the SV firms), meaning you'll have to work harder to spin your experience as relevant when pressed in interviews, and it may take longer to find a fit. For instance, my strategy during interviews was to largely gloss over how much deal support I did and really focus on talking up the few "impressive" commercial/licensing deals I had worked on.

-- With that said, all my friends were able to land decent in-house roles, so it's NOT at all a bar to doing so. I think there are plenty of places out there that will give you points for name recognition (even if your experience isn't perfectly on point) and there are enough places that have a philosophy of hiring smart people they can train up rather than a weaker candidate with more relevant experience.

[Anonymous User]

This is just one data point, but going from biglaw senior associate to in-house as products legal counsel, FAANG comp was ~$250k base plus ~$50k cash bonus plus ~$100k in stock. Signing bonus was ~$100k cash (to cover missed biglaw bonus) plus ~$100k stock.

On paper, it sounds like FAANG matches senior associate pay at a firm pretty well, but the reality is different. Cash flow is much lower after stock buy-in and other benefits. Stock also generally had a multi-year vesting period. They give out big stock numbers, knowing they will get a lot of it back when you leave. Stock typically appreciates nicely.

Once you're in, you have to put in YEARS before a promotion or substantial raise happens.

FWIW, software developers at FAANG get way bigger bonuses than lawyers ($200k+ stock signing bonuses, etc.). Lawyers at FAANG are treated more as back office (loss generators) than at a law firm, where lawyers are profit generators. Some people may like that dynamic better, though. Plus the hours are slightly less in house.

[Anonymous User]

This is just one data point, but going from biglaw senior associate to in-house as products legal counsel, FAANG comp was ~$250k base plus ~$50k cash bonus plus ~$100k in stock. Signing bonus was ~$100k cash (to cover missed biglaw bonus) plus ~$100k stock.

On paper, it sounds like FAANG matches senior associate pay at a firm pretty well, but the reality is different. Cash flow is much lower after stock buy-in and other benefits. Stock also generally had a multi-year vesting period. They give out big stock numbers, knowing they will get a lot of it back when you leave. Stock typically appreciates nicely.

Once you're in, you have to put in YEARS before a promotion or substantial raise happens.

FWIW, software developers at FAANG get way bigger bonuses than lawyers ($200k+ stock signing bonuses, etc.). Lawyers at FAANG are treated more as back office (loss generators) than at a law firm, where lawyers are profit generators. Some people may like that dynamic better, though. Plus the hours are slightly less in house.

Why do people here keep making these comparisons? We're lawyers, not coders. It's not relevant.

[d39524s]

Former NYC V10 associate in IP/Tech Trans, now in-house commercial counsel at non-FAANG SV tech company.

-- IP/Tech Trans at most v10s is going to be basically 80% deal support and 20% "standalone" work. Partners will try to convince you that it's 50/50 or something like that, but take that with a massive grain of salt unless you have it on good authority that's the case (and is the case for ALL associates, not just their favorite superstar).

-- The 80% deal support will depend on what your firm's main corporate specialties are. If you're at a big M&A shop, then you'll mostly support M&A. If your firm does a ton of capital markets/financings, you'll be supporting that.

-- The 20% "standalone" work will likely comprise of a small portion of "sexy" tech/data/pharma licensing or bespoke commercial contracting that the firm is specifically engaged by a client on (usually reserved for more senior associates, or maybe their favorite star junior associates) and then the rest will be random ancillary/overflow drafting work (i.e., drafting a IP license as part of an M&A carve-out deal, drafting a bunch of assignment agreements as part of a corporate reorg led by your bankruptcy team).

-- For purposes of going in-house from a v10 IP/Tech Trans practice, the order of precedent for useful experience is as follows: Standalone commercial/IP and data licensing work >>>> M&A IP support >> Capital Market/Financing IP support. Seriously, M&A support usually sucks more, but capital markets/financing support is trash for moving in-house.

-- If you want to go in house at a tech company, you'll be at a disadvantage as compared to others who went to a practice that emphasizes more standalone work (e.g., Gunderson and the SV firms), meaning you'll have to work harder to spin your experience as relevant when pressed in interviews, and it may take longer to find a fit. For instance, my strategy during interviews was to largely gloss over how much deal support I did and really focus on talking up the few "impressive" commercial/licensing deals I had worked on.

-- With that said, all my friends were able to land decent in-house roles, so it's NOT at all a bar to doing so. I think there are plenty of places out there that will give you points for name recognition (even if your experience isn't perfectly on point) and there are enough places that have a philosophy of hiring smart people they can train up rather than a weaker candidate with more relevant experience.

What is your comp like if you don't mind me asking? Trying to gather data points.

[Anonymous User]

What is your comp like if you don't mind me asking? Trying to gather data points.

Not at all:

-- Late stage private tech company with ~1000 employees. I left my firm as a mid-level and am the junior-most attorney in our in-house legal.

-- Base ~180K, ~ 20% YE bonus target, ~ 20K signing bonus, ~150K options vesting over 4 years with 1 year cliff. Decent but not FAANG type of benefits and perks (i.e., we have employer paid health, 401K matching, decent wellness/tech reimbursements, but nothing that blows you away / isn't par for course at SV tech company). So annual cash comp is about 210K (ignoring one time sign-on bonus and equity, and dollar value of better benefits/perks).

-- Since we're private, equity value at any point in time is basically a black box. We've technically been growing since I joined, so that $150K/4 year should be higher, but very unclear due to recent downturn in tech stocks.

-- Another important thing to note for private company equity: you're generally illiquid unless there's a liquidity event (IPO/acquisition/buyback). So while I can claim that my total comp is 210K + 35K in yearly options = ~245K, it's really not until it is. Along with the idea that equity valuation is a black box until it isn't, my options could be worth $0 by the time we are able to sell.

IMO my package is definitely NOT top of market like some FAANGs, and more middle of the road for what I've seen similarly situated friends get. The illiquidity kind of sucks TBH.