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Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:45 pm
by Anonymous User
Hi all,
I'm working to improve, but in light of some personal issues this past year, my grades have been mixed as a 1L at UChi. I have ranged anywhere from 171 to 180 in my classes and am sitting at around 175.5 right now. I am mostly interested in Trust and Estate Law and don't necessarily care about going into big law, but would like a solid small or mid-size firm to work and gain experience at before going into solo practice.
I have significant work experience and am a minority. I also think I'm a decent interviewer, as I had more than a handful of summer job offers.
Open to Chicago or CA markets. Would probably do NYC if I had to.
Any thoughts / advice on how I might do?
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:50 pm
by Anonymous User
Also, generally open to any markets where trust and estates seem important/thriving? FL etc?
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:02 pm
by pkeller
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:50 pm
Also, generally open to any markets where trust and estates seem important/thriving? FL etc?
Florida might be harder than you think, especially if you don't have ties there. There were a couple threads on Florida firms/summer associate positions, and they're pretty competitive.
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:04 pm
by pkeller
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:45 pm
Hi all,
I'm working to improve, but in light of some personal issues this past year, my grades have been mixed as a 1L at UChi. I have ranged anywhere from 171 to 180 in my classes and am sitting at around 175.5 right now. I am mostly interested in Trust and Estate Law and don't necessarily care about going into big law, but would like a solid small or mid-size firm to work and gain experience at before going into solo practice.
I have significant work experience and am a minority. I also think I'm a decent interviewer, as I had more than a handful of summer job offers.
Open to Chicago or CA markets. Would probably do NYC if I had to.
Any thoughts / advice on how I might do?
Use career services as much as you can. Do practice interviews, even if you think you don't need them. Do you have ties to CA?
Try to network this summer--attend happy hours, receptions, etc. You can also email alums from your school at the firms you're interested in for informational interviews.
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:06 pm
by Anonymous User
Yep, strong ties to CA as I'm from there. I will definitely be networking!
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:18 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:45 pm
Hi all,
I'm working to improve, but in light of some personal issues this past year, my grades have been mixed as a 1L at UChi. I have ranged anywhere from 171 to 180 in my classes and am sitting at around 175.5 right now. I am mostly interested in Trust and Estate Law and don't necessarily care about going into big law, but would like a solid small or mid-size firm to work and gain experience at before going into solo practice.
I have significant work experience and am a minority. I also think I'm a decent interviewer, as I had more than a handful of summer job offers.
Open to Chicago or CA markets. Would probably do NYC if I had to.
Any thoughts / advice on how I might do?
You will definitely need to apply broadly and concentrate your bids in NYC. Try applying to Weil, STB, Skadden (all NYC) and prep for interviews well
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:09 am
by Anonymous User
Am I crazy here because I don't understand all the doom and gloom. Chi has weird grading but what percentile does 175 correspond to? Curve is 177 so surely it's not that bad. You're in a school that feeds 80% BL+FC. That mean plenty of bottom quartile students are getting biglaw.
Obviously network and pre OCI and expand your footprint to NY and CA, but statistically you're in a good place.
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:07 am
by Anonymous User
Not a Chi, but a 175.5 should be like 30-40th percentile. Someone who's a bit below median should have no difficulty landing corporate BL in this market.
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:59 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:07 am
Not a Chi, but a 175.5 should be like 30-40th percentile. Someone who's a bit below median should have no difficulty landing corporate BL in this market.
Its a tight curve, there's talk in the old Uchi thread about ~60-70% ending up between a 176 and a 178 after 1L year.
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:54 pm
by Anonymous User
OP here. Am i basically out of the running for CA/Chicago, even boutique or mid-law firms?
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:02 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:54 pm
OP here. Am i basically out of the running for CA/Chicago, even boutique or mid-law firms?
You still have a whole quarter (and one with more credits than the last two) to pull yourself up to median. Focus on that.
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:37 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:54 pm
OP here. Am i basically out of the running for CA/Chicago, even boutique or mid-law firms?
No, not at all. I think I ended 1L around a 175/176 average (in 2018) and got multiple CA offers (including pre-OCI). Network hard this summer, attend the events, write thank yous to the attorneys you meet after and get coffee/chat with them (be normal about it though). I also think you should also definitely target corporate -- litigation seems to be a little tougher to swing with lower grades.
Also, I'd be wary of targeting NY firms that have CA offices too hard. When I was applying, I was told that it can look kind of bad/weird to apply to both the NY and CA offices because it can confuse the recruiting team and make it seem like you aren't serious enough about one office over the other. Whether that's actually true or not, who knows, just what I was told. Definitely apply to NYC firms with big classes that don't have CA offices though (e.g. Debevoise, Fried Frank, etc.)
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:39 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:37 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:54 pm
OP here. Am i basically out of the running for CA/Chicago, even boutique or mid-law firms?
No, not at all. I think I ended 1L around a 175/176 average (in 2018) and got multiple CA offers (including pre-OCI). Network hard this summer, attend the events, write thank yous to the attorneys you meet after and get coffee/chat with them (be normal about it though). I also think you should also definitely target corporate -- litigation seems to be a little tougher to swing with lower grades.
Also, I'd be wary of targeting NY firms that have CA offices too hard. When I was applying, I was told that it can look kind of bad/weird to apply to both the NY and CA offices because it can confuse the recruiting team and make it seem like you aren't serious enough about one office over the other. Whether that's actually true or not, who knows, just what I was told. Definitely apply to NYC firms with big classes that don't have CA offices though (e.g. Debevoise, Fried Frank, etc.)
Is debevoise really a backup firm at uchi?
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:43 pm
by Anonymous User
Yeah NYC biglaw (esp transactional) is really, really easy at Chicago.
OP, I wouldn’t freak out, but try to get those grades up. They’re not outlandishly low or anything but since you’re interested in relatively picky markets raising will help.
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:49 pm
by Anonymous User
Advice for OP: try networking with people at your target markets. Even if you don't find UChicago Law or whatever undergrad you went to, you'd be surprised at the number of people who'd be happy to talk to a law student about their experiences. Especially! If you're a URM from UChicago Law. You'll be fine. Network over the summer and bid California and Florida. Ties help, but they're not dispositive
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:40 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:39 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:37 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:54 pm
OP here. Am i basically out of the running for CA/Chicago, even boutique or mid-law firms?
No, not at all. I think I ended 1L around a 175/176 average (in 2018) and got multiple CA offers (including pre-OCI). Network hard this summer, attend the events, write thank yous to the attorneys you meet after and get coffee/chat with them (be normal about it though). I also think you should also definitely target corporate -- litigation seems to be a little tougher to swing with lower grades.
Also, I'd be wary of targeting NY firms that have CA offices too hard. When I was applying, I was told that it can look kind of bad/weird to apply to both the NY and CA offices because it can confuse the recruiting team and make it seem like you aren't serious enough about one office over the other. Whether that's actually true or not, who knows, just what I was told. Definitely apply to NYC firms with big classes that don't have CA offices though (e.g. Debevoise, Fried Frank, etc.)
Is debevoise really a backup firm at uchi?
It might be. NY spots are easier to get from Chicago than they are from Columbia or even HLS. There’s just less competition
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:51 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:40 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:39 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:37 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:54 pm
OP here. Am i basically out of the running for CA/Chicago, even boutique or mid-law firms?
No, not at all. I think I ended 1L around a 175/176 average (in 2018) and got multiple CA offers (including pre-OCI). Network hard this summer, attend the events, write thank yous to the attorneys you meet after and get coffee/chat with them (be normal about it though). I also think you should also definitely target corporate -- litigation seems to be a little tougher to swing with lower grades.
Also, I'd be wary of targeting NY firms that have CA offices too hard. When I was applying, I was told that it can look kind of bad/weird to apply to both the NY and CA offices because it can confuse the recruiting team and make it seem like you aren't serious enough about one office over the other. Whether that's actually true or not, who knows, just what I was told. Definitely apply to NYC firms with big classes that don't have CA offices though (e.g. Debevoise, Fried Frank, etc.)
Is debevoise really a backup firm at uchi?
It might be. NY spots are easier to get from Chicago than they are from Columbia or even HLS. There’s just less competition
Just out of curiosity, roughly what % of interviewees from uchicago get callbacks at places like deb and stb?
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:33 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:51 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:40 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:39 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:37 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:54 pm
OP here. Am i basically out of the running for CA/Chicago, even boutique or mid-law firms?
No, not at all. I think I ended 1L around a 175/176 average (in 2018) and got multiple CA offers (including pre-OCI). Network hard this summer, attend the events, write thank yous to the attorneys you meet after and get coffee/chat with them (be normal about it though). I also think you should also definitely target corporate -- litigation seems to be a little tougher to swing with lower grades.
Also, I'd be wary of targeting NY firms that have CA offices too hard. When I was applying, I was told that it can look kind of bad/weird to apply to both the NY and CA offices because it can confuse the recruiting team and make it seem like you aren't serious enough about one office over the other. Whether that's actually true or not, who knows, just what I was told. Definitely apply to NYC firms with big classes that don't have CA offices though (e.g. Debevoise, Fried Frank, etc.)
Is debevoise really a backup firm at uchi?
It might be. NY spots are easier to get from Chicago than they are from Columbia or even HLS. There’s just less competition
Just out of curiosity, roughly what % of interviewees from uchicago get callbacks at places like deb and stb?
It's hard to tell, but that's a pointless question. Look at the GPA stats and figure out whether you're like to get a CB or not. I will say that both of these firms are used to getting turned down by Chicago students, though.
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:13 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:33 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:51 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:40 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:39 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:37 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:54 pm
OP here. Am i basically out of the running for CA/Chicago, even boutique or mid-law firms?
No, not at all. I think I ended 1L around a 175/176 average (in 2018) and got multiple CA offers (including pre-OCI). Network hard this summer, attend the events, write thank yous to the attorneys you meet after and get coffee/chat with them (be normal about it though). I also think you should also definitely target corporate -- litigation seems to be a little tougher to swing with lower grades.
Also, I'd be wary of targeting NY firms that have CA offices too hard. When I was applying, I was told that it can look kind of bad/weird to apply to both the NY and CA offices because it can confuse the recruiting team and make it seem like you aren't serious enough about one office over the other. Whether that's actually true or not, who knows, just what I was told. Definitely apply to NYC firms with big classes that don't have CA offices though (e.g. Debevoise, Fried Frank, etc.)
Is debevoise really a backup firm at uchi?
It might be. NY spots are easier to get from Chicago than they are from Columbia or even HLS. There’s just less competition
Just out of curiosity, roughly what % of interviewees from uchicago get callbacks at places like deb and stb?
It's hard to tell, but that's a pointless question. Look at the GPA stats and figure out whether you're like to get a CB or not. I will say that both of these firms are used to getting turned down by Chicago students, though.
Looking at the most recently available data, it looks like over half of screeners got callbacks at Deb, though I'd also wager there are far fewer screener spots in the first place for UChi students than Columbia, NYU and the like.
OP- seconding all of the advice above. If you have any interest in corporate work, you'll be fine. As a heads up, sometimes larger firms in CA do not visit OCI for whatever reason (Latham LA, for example, did not come last year). Make sure when the firm list comes out to do pre-OCI for these firms that will have more spots to fill.
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:44 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:09 am
Am I crazy here because I don't understand all the doom and gloom. Chi has weird grading but what percentile does 175 correspond to? Curve is 177 so surely it's not that bad. You're in a school that feeds 80% BL+FC. That mean plenty of bottom quartile students are getting biglaw.
Obviously network and pre OCI and expand your footprint to NY and CA, but statistically you're in a good place.
Chi alum here. A 175.5 is closer to the bottom 15%. To OP, New York is the answer and look at the callback report for grade insensitive firms and don’t waste bids on the grade sensitive ones. Even if you start in New York, you can lateral back to CA. Barring something stellar on your resume, there are limited spots in CA due to smaller class sizes and your grades are too low not to do New York.
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:59 am
by Anonymous User
Do bottom 15% students at Chi generally go for the same tier of NY firms that bottom 15% students at NYU/CLS go for? (i.e., FF, SRZ, Willkie, Shearman — or perhaps those firms don't even bother appearing for Chi OCI?)
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:00 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:59 am
Do bottom 15% students at Chi generally go for the same tier of NY firms that bottom 15% students at NYU/CLS go for? (i.e., FF, SRZ, Willkie, Shearman — or perhaps those firms don't even bother appearing for Chi OCI?)
If OCI is remote still, maybe they all do show up now. As of a few years ago, FF and Willkie came but SRZ and Shearman did not.
People have short memories but it’s all economy-dependent. 175.5 may have been a chill GPA for 2021 OCI, but as recently as 2019 it would have been pretty challenging absent additional factors (e.g. URM)
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:53 pm
by Anonymous User
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Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:17 pm
by Anonymous User
OP here. am I better off holding off on OCI until next year to get my grades up?
Re: Mixed/low grades at UChicago and OCI Chances
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:32 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:17 pm
OP here. am I better off holding off on OCI until next year to get my grades up?
No, that’s not a thing. OCI as a 3L works for people who did a SA their 2L summer and have an offer to return and want to change firms. It’s not a second chance to get into biglaw for the first time. (Unless you’re doing a joint degree or something that extends your degree another year, of course.)