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MBA, Clerkship, or both?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:12 am
by Anonymous User
HYSC 1L, interested mostly in transactional work and business exits. I was strongly considering tacking on an MBA (apparently it's fairly easy to get into the b-school once you're already in the law school), but due to some professor relationships, fedsoc, and my grades I've been told that I'm a very strong candidate for several competitive COA clerkships.
Now, I could apply for 2024-2025, and give up on the idea of adding the MBA. I could apply for 2025-2026, add the MBA, and then figure out what to do. Or I could apply for 2025, strike out on the MBA, and just go the COA route. Or, I could apply for both and strike out at both.
Which of these make sense? My instinct is that it's one or the other, but I know some 3Ls who a) have clerkships and b) are in the first year of the MBA program, so it's not like it's truly exclusive. I'm still not interested in being a lawyer for the rest of my life, which cuts against the clerkship, but I keep being told it's the best thing you can ever do. WWYD, TLS?
Edit: should note that loans/lost income shouldn't go into this calculation; it's more about positioning for top exits down the line (especially into finance)
Re: MBA, Clerkship, or both?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:00 am
by nixy
I can’t speak to the MBA side of things, but I think most profs assume you want traditional law jobs and that’s where the COA advice comes from. It’s certainly an excellent legal credential in a vacuum and it’s a great experience for litigators but it doesn’t sound like something that fits with your goals at all.
Re: MBA, Clerkship, or both?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:03 am
by Anonymous User
If you plan on transactional work and eventually finance, I'm not sure there's any point to clerking. Your profs want you to clerk bc the school looks better if more people clerk, but it's not necessarily your best path. If you have any interest in academia or a boutique lit firm sure. But it doesn't sound like you do. Your career goals will be met just fine by going to a V10, which should be easy with good grades at HLS.
I'm also not sure there's enough value add to justify adding another year for the MBA. If you can do the joint degree in 3 years, do it. But again, you're already well positioned for your goals. Unless you decide to ditch the law thing entirely and go into finance straight out of school, in which case maybe it makes sense.
Tldr, decide what you want. Finance (non law)? MBA. Lit / academia / unicorn? Clerkship. Regular biglaw transaction? Neither.
Re: MBA, Clerkship, or both?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:10 am
by Anonymous User
+1 re: skip the clerkship. The only reason to clerk if you want to go on the corporate side of things is if you want to teach later (see, e.g.,
https://www.law.virginia.edu/faculty/pr ... 9h/1186861). Do you know if you're in the running for SCOTUS? I still don't think that would move the needle for you on corporate exits, but I can see the "life goals be damned why would you pass that up" argument. FWIW I know someone who was 1000% SCOTUS eligible and ended up just going straight to the tax group at a V10.
Re: MBA, Clerkship, or both?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:22 am
by Anonymous User
The argument for clerking if SCOTUS is a possibility is that (especially if fedsoc) Jones Day suddenly becomes a strong career choice. 400k signing bonus + likely above market pay after. Then after a couple of years or whenever the next GOP admin is in office, some fancy DOJ position or whatever. It's both financially and prestige wise a completely different tier. But just COA isn't worth it if you're not interested in litigation (or academia), and it isn't a reason to become interested in those things if you aren't already.
Re: MBA, Clerkship, or both?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:18 am
by BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?)
Don't think coa clerkship adds much value with your goals. Neither does an MBA. You can get any biglaw transactional with good grades from your school. You can also get into management consulting/i-banking with a law degree (although it's harder without an MBA, you have top credentials. So, hustle instead of wasting money and atleast year).
Re: MBA, Clerkship, or both?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:57 am
by Sackboy
Agree that you can just hustle and probably get IB/consulting instead of biglaw or work in transactional biglaw for 2-3 years and hustle to end up on the business side. Hustling + top legal credentials + top firm corporate experience can definitely make up for the lack of an expensive MBA.
Re: MBA, Clerkship, or both?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:27 am
by CanadianWolf
Do you have any prior post undergraduate work experience ?
If not, then the MBA should be postponed unless you are at Stanford and, possibly, Harvard. (Admission to the MBA programs at Yale & Columbia is easier than for Stanford GBS & Harvard Business School.)
I disagree that a federal COA clerkship is only beneficial to future litigators (although this line of thought is more correct with respect to federal District Court clerkships).
Consider applying for both options as neither is guaranteed--although my thought is that admission to Columbia's MBA program & to Yale SOM would be highly likely for incoming law students at those schools.
More value in a COA clerkship than in a non-Stanford or non-Harvard MBA.
P.S. Curious as to your thoughts about the benefits & purpose of these options (COA clerkship & MBA degree) as I suspect that your perspective may not fully understand what these experiences yield to one of, presumably, such a young age (mid to late twenties). Feel free to PM/DM.
P.P.S.Also, if your business interest is focused on finance, then there are better MBA programs that you should consider such as Penn's Wharton School.
Re: MBA, Clerkship, or both?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:52 am
by Anonymous User
Think this depends on why you want an MBA. Is it necessary for your goals??
Re: MBA, Clerkship, or both?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:51 pm
by Anonymous User
Piggybacking on the topic, it seems not a lot of corporate attorneys actually manage to transition to finance after a few years? Heard it was more of a 90s thing. Is the only practical way to transition now inhouse in a bank/PE then transition to a business role?
Re: MBA, Clerkship, or both?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:52 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:12 am
HYSC 1L, interested mostly in transactional work and business exits. I was strongly considering tacking on an MBA (apparently it's fairly easy to get into the b-school once you're already in the law school), but due to some professor relationships, fedsoc, and my grades I've been told that I'm a very strong candidate for several competitive COA clerkships.
Now, I could apply for 2024-2025, and give up on the idea of adding the MBA. I could apply for 2025-2026, add the MBA, and then figure out what to do. Or I could apply for 2025, strike out on the MBA, and just go the COA route. Or, I could apply for both and strike out at both.
Which of these make sense? My instinct is that it's one or the other, but I know some 3Ls who a) have clerkships and b) are in the first year of the MBA program, so it's not like it's truly exclusive. I'm still not interested in being a lawyer for the rest of my life, which cuts against the clerkship, but I keep being told it's the best thing you can ever do. WWYD, TLS?
Edit: should note that loans/lost income shouldn't go into this calculation; it's more about positioning for top exits down the line (especially into finance)
Re: MBA, Clerkship, or both?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 1:16 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:12 am
HYSC 1L, interested mostly in transactional work and business exits. I was strongly considering tacking on an MBA (apparently it's fairly easy to get into the b-school once you're already in the law school), but due to some professor relationships, fedsoc, and my grades I've been told that I'm a very strong candidate for several competitive COA clerkships.
Now, I could apply for 2024-2025, and give up on the idea of adding the MBA. I could apply for 2025-2026, add the MBA, and then figure out what to do. Or I could apply for 2025, strike out on the MBA, and just go the COA route. Or, I could apply for both and strike out at both.
Which of these make sense? My instinct is that it's one or the other, but I know some 3Ls who a) have clerkships and b) are in the first year of the MBA program, so it's not like it's truly exclusive. I'm still not interested in being a lawyer for the rest of my life, which cuts against the clerkship, but I keep being told it's the best thing you can ever do. WWYD, TLS?
Edit: should note that loans/lost income shouldn't go into this calculation; it's more about positioning for top exits down the line (especially into finance)
I recommend the MBA given that you seem most interested in business long term, especially if you are at Harvard, Stanford, or Chicago. I think some of the above posters really are underestimating the difficulty of transitioning from biglaw to actual IB. I worked for a Bulge bracket bank prior to law school and it is not an easy transition to make. I personally only know of two people who pulled this off during my three years at the bank and they both came in as IB VPs from a V5 firm. I cannot recall any other person joining from law. The vast majority of new IB hires are recruited straight from MBA programs (start as associates) or right out of undergrad (start as analysts). I honestly don't know how much help the MBA will add if you still go the biglaw route first anyway though because the biggest advantage for the MBAs is that they have access to the entry level recruiting for IB and Consulting. However, I do think it will be viewed favorably.
I also think the clerkship could add value. A clerkship with a prominent conservative judge would serve as a good signaling effect if you have interest in regulatory or administrative work with a future republican administration. But pretty much no one in the private financial sector will even know what a clerkship is.
Re: MBA, Clerkship, or both?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:00 pm
by Anonymous User
If money is not a big issue and you are not entirely sure about what you want to do, do both.
The MBA will broaden your career outlook and network, give you another year of summer internships, and make you feel more confident about your business acumen. You'll be exposed to the MBA hiring pipeline and the personalities that inhabit different post-MBA fields. The clerkship will tell you about a completely different career path (and likely personality type) and increase your legal confidence. During and after these experiences, you can judge where you best fit, although you might have to negotiate with employers to get flexibility with timing. Take the opportunity to explore career routes and gain a strong foundation while you still can.
Re: MBA, Clerkship, or both?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:28 pm
by Anonymous User
OP here. To clarify a few points:
1. Prior work experience: I had ug internships in IB & (middle market) PE, but decided to do some public interest stuff (think peace corps/americorps) for two years right out of undergrad. My understanding is that while that's not ideal for MBA admissions or securing the best MBA exits, it's fine for both when attached to the JD.
2. I'm not really in range for SCOTUS. When I say competitive COA, think non-feeders in competitive cities or MAYBE a low-tier feeder. I also don't have any real desire to do a SCOTUS clerkship.
3. As for the rationale behind the MBA, it's essentially a) access to MBA recruiting, b) access to MBA finance classes (possible w/o doing the degree, but harder), c) long-term value of the credential. Ideally I'd like to go either directly into finance as an Associate or spend a few years in finance adjacent biglaw (specifically restructuring) then make the pivot as a VP, which I've been told is significantly easier with the MBA.
I'm leaning towards ditching the COA push and only going for the MBA, since it aligns far more with my goals, but ugh the pressure to get those clerkship numbers up is immense.
Re: MBA, Clerkship, or both?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:41 pm
by ninthcircuitattorney
Very few people in finance are going to be impressed by any clerkship because they don't know what it is. Other than finance folks who have close family relations to litigators, finance folks think that "clerks" are the poor saps at the intake office of the Clerk's Office. (Not joking.)
Re: MBA, Clerkship, or both?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:15 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:51 pm
Piggybacking on the topic, it seems not a lot of corporate attorneys actually manage to transition to finance after a few years? Heard it was more of a 90s thing. Is the only practical way to transition now inhouse in a bank/PE then transition to a business role?
Hard to say it’s
common, but [top RX shop → RX banking or RX buyside] isn’t unheard of for star midlevels/seniors. Someone else would have to weigh in on whether the MBA is value-add for someone like OP traveling along that path.
Re: MBA, Clerkship, or both?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:27 pm
by Anonymous User
CanadianWolf wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:27 am
Do you have any prior post undergraduate work experience ?
If not, then the MBA should be postponed unless you are at Stanford and, possibly, Harvard. (Admission to the MBA programs at Yale & Columbia is easier than for Stanford GBS & Harvard Business School.)
I disagree that a federal COA clerkship is only beneficial to future litigators (although this line of thought is more correct with respect to federal District Court clerkships).
Consider applying for both options as neither is guaranteed--although my thought is that admission to Columbia's MBA program & to Yale SOM would be highly likely for incoming law students at those schools.
More value in a COA clerkship than in a non-Stanford or non-Harvard MBA.
P.S. Curious as to your thoughts about the benefits & purpose of these options (COA clerkship & MBA degree) as I suspect that your perspective may not fully understand what these experiences yield to one of, presumably, such a young age (mid to late twenties). Feel free to PM/DM.
P.P.S.Also, if your business interest is focused on finance, then there are better MBA programs that you should consider such as Penn's Wharton School.
C is presumably Chicago, meaning Booth
Re: MBA, Clerkship, or both?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:32 pm
by Anonymous User
Fwiw clerking then going into corporate seems reasonably common from grads of my school at WLRK in particular. There’s even a WLRK corporate associate clerking at SCOTUS for Gorsuch soon. This seems unique to Wachtell, though, and as a litigator I’m not really well-positioned to give you advice. The one JD/MBA in my class (HYSC) also went to Wachtell.
Matt Levine clerked, worked at Wachtell corporate, then worked on the finance side at Goldman, which seems like basically the path you want. He’s mentioned that clerking was his favorite job.
Re: MBA, Clerkship, or both?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:55 pm
by CanadianWolf
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:28 pm
OP here. To clarify a few points:
1. Prior work experience: I had ug internships in IB & (middle market) PE, but decided to do some public interest stuff (think peace corps/americorps) for two years right out of undergrad. My understanding is that while that's not ideal for MBA admissions or securing the best MBA exits, it's fine for both when attached to the JD.
2. I'm not really in range for SCOTUS. When I say competitive COA, think non-feeders in competitive cities or MAYBE a low-tier feeder. I also don't have any real desire to do a SCOTUS clerkship.
3. As for the rationale behind the MBA, it's essentially a) access to MBA recruiting, b) access to MBA finance classes (possible w/o doing the degree, but harder), c) long-term value of the credential. Ideally I'd like to go either directly into finance as an Associate or spend a few years in finance adjacent biglaw (specifically restructuring) then make the pivot as a VP, which I've been told is significantly easier with the MBA.
I'm leaning towards ditching the COA push and only going for the MBA, since it aligns far more with my goals, but ugh the pressure to get those clerkship numbers up is immense.
The opportunity to earn an MBA from an elite program remains at least through one's early thirties (later on an EMBA is widely available from elite programs).
An MBA without prior relevant work experience is not worth as much, in my view, as a COA clerkship. I think that you and most other posters in this thread see the value of these opportunities from the perspective of a young professional.
Is your potential MBA option from Stanford, Chicago, or Harvard ? If, as others suggest, if it is from Chicago, then your law degree may mesh together with an MBA better than the other options if Chicago law still leans towards economic analysis.
Some recent MBA stats:
Acceptance rates:
Stanford GSB = 6.2%
Harvard Business School = 12.5%
Columbia business school = 15.7%
Penn-Wharton = 18.2%
Chicago-Booth = 22.6%
Yale SOM = 23.6%
Average starting base salaries from elite MBA programs classes of 2021:
Chicago-Booth = $149,000
Penn-Wharton = $153,400
Stanford GSB = $162,000
Harvard Business School = $153,000
NYU-Stern = $149,500
Median starting salaries:
Chicago-Booth = $155,000
Penn-Wharton = $155,000
Harvard Business School = $150,500
Columbia business school = $150,000
Yale SOM = $140,100
MBAs often receive signing bonuses of about $35,000.
Big Law starting salary = $215,000.
My advice:
If you would forego a COA clerkship opportunity to pursue an MBA (with or without relevant work experience), then do not go to law school.
Re: MBA, Clerkship, or both?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:05 pm
by Anonymous User
CanadianWolf wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:55 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:28 pm
OP here. To clarify a few points:
1. Prior work experience: I had ug internships in IB & (middle market) PE, but decided to do some public interest stuff (think peace corps/americorps) for two years right out of undergrad. My understanding is that while that's not ideal for MBA admissions or securing the best MBA exits, it's fine for both when attached to the JD.
2. I'm not really in range for SCOTUS. When I say competitive COA, think non-feeders in competitive cities or MAYBE a low-tier feeder. I also don't have any real desire to do a SCOTUS clerkship.
3. As for the rationale behind the MBA, it's essentially a) access to MBA recruiting, b) access to MBA finance classes (possible w/o doing the degree, but harder), c) long-term value of the credential. Ideally I'd like to go either directly into finance as an Associate or spend a few years in finance adjacent biglaw (specifically restructuring) then make the pivot as a VP, which I've been told is significantly easier with the MBA.
I'm leaning towards ditching the COA push and only going for the MBA, since it aligns far more with my goals, but ugh the pressure to get those clerkship numbers up is immense.
The opportunity to earn an MBA from an elite program remains at least through one's early thirties (later on an EMBA is widely available from elite programs).
An MBA without prior relevant work experience is not worth as much, in my view, as a COA clerkship. I think that you and most other posters in this thread see the value of these opportunities from the perspective of a young professional.
Is your potential MBA option from Stanford, Chicago, or Harvard ? If, as others suggest, if it is from Chicago, then your law degree may mesh together with an MBA better than the other options if Chicago law still leans towards economic analysis.
Some recent MBA stats:
Acceptance rates:
Stanford GSB = 6.2%
Harvard Business School = 12.5%
Columbia business school = 15.7%
Penn-Wharton = 18.2%
Chicago-Booth = 22.6%
Yale SOM = 23.6%
Average starting base salaries from elite MBA programs classes of 2021:
Chicago-Booth = $149,000
Penn-Wharton = $153,400
Stanford GSB = $162,000
Harvard Business School = $153,000
NYU-Stern = $149,500
Median starting salaries:
Chicago-Booth = $155,000
Penn-Wharton = $155,000
Harvard Business School = $150,500
Columbia business school = $150,000
Yale SOM = $140,100
MBAs often receive signing bonuses of about $35,000.
Big Law starting salary = $215,000.
My advice:
If you would forego a COA clerkship opportunity to pursue an MBA (with or without relevant work experience), then do not go to law school.
Is the argument here that biglaw > median bschool exit? Unsure that they're really comparable metrics given the breadth of bschool exits.
Re: MBA, Clerkship, or both?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:11 pm
by CanadianWolf
Just information to help the OP think about his situation.
We readers do not have enough information about the OP in order to make strong recommendations beyond if one plans to attend law school and practice law, then the opportunity to clerk for a federal COA is more meaningful than prematurely earning an MBA for a future exit option.
Also, not sure why one would spend 3 years in law school if the ultimate goal is a job in finance pursuant to earning an MBA.
P.S. FWIW Here are the most recent US News EMBA (Executive MBA) rankings (not all MBA programs offer an EMBA):
1) Northwestern-Kellogg
2) Penn-Wharton
3) Chicago-Booth
4) Columbia
5) Michigan-Ross
6) NYU-Stern
7) UC-Berkeley
Duke-Fuqua
9) MIT-Sloan
10) UCLA-Anderson
11) UNC-Kenan-Flagler
12) Cornell-Johnson
Most EMBA programs are best suited for those in middle to upper management with about 8 to 10 years of work experience (some programs may regard law school years as a type of post undergraduate work experience).
My only point is that if OP wants to practice law do not forego the opportunity to clerk at a federal COA. Opportunity to earn an MBA remains well past one's law school years. Additionally, I question the value of earning an MBA after one academic year in graduate business school during one's law school years, then practicing law for several years. MBA courses can become somewhat outdated due to rapid changes in technology & in international business.
Nevertheless, if OP is not given a COA clerkship opportunity, then one year of graduate business school is a reasonable use of that individual's law school years even the the primary benefit of attending an elite MBA program of being recruited for immediate job opportunities would be wasted in OP's situation.
Re: MBA, Clerkship, or both?
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:22 pm
by Anonymous User
Setting aside SCOTUS clerkships, clerkships don't help a corporate lawyer's career the way they help a litigator's. But that doesn't mean they don't help. I'd consider SDNY, 2nd circuit, and Delaware chancery. Of those, chancery is probably best from a usefulness standpoint.