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Defective poll - delete
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:15 am
by Anonymous User
Defective poll - delete
Re: When do associates start getting pushed out?
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:27 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:15 am
What class year does it start in noticeable amounts. Thanks.
None of these. As long as you're doing ~2k hours of relatively good work my firm will keep you until 8-11 years - about the time at which you would be up (and passed over) for partnership. I know someone who was fine, but not stellar, who nonetheless stuck around for like 14 or 15 years waiting for the boot.
"Noticeable amounts" of attrition during years 1-6 has more to do with burnout and other forms of self-selection, not getting pushed out.
Re: When do associates start getting pushed out?
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:43 am
by papermateflair
I voted 5th year, but only because I think that's when if someone really isn't working out and hasn't self-selected out yet that the firm has to start taking action if they aren't making money on that person, or if the associate isn't able to do more complex work, it becomes a bigger problem to keep them around. Or if the partners haven't really invested in an associate (because they decided they didn't have what it takes as a third year) then a couple of years of lower hours will catch up to you by the time you're a 5th year. But there's no hard line, and I agree that in many cases associates leaving has to do with self-selecting out.
Re: When do associates start getting pushed out?
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:44 am
by Prudent_Jurist
When you stop figuring out what seniors/partners meant to instill in you with their redlines.
Only the gunners survive.
Re: When do associates start getting pushed out?
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:04 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:15 am
What class year does it start in noticeable amounts. Thanks.
Depends how bad at the job you are. If truly a disaster, even a 1st year can get canned. Historically a lot of people get the suggestion to look for a new job when making the 2nd to 3rd year transition, when you are expected to start showing at least some degree of competence and engagement.
Re: When do associates start getting pushed out?
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:12 am
by Anonymous User
obviously this depends but there has to be a point/class year where firms do try to push out (which also includes firms making it more difficult for you to get 2k or whatever hours you need to be "safe") an average associate at a higher rate. curious about this as well as a mid who wants to stick out for 2 more years but definitely worried about getting pushed out earlier. i think my hours and work product (for the level) probably average or below average.
Re: When do associates start getting pushed out?
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:02 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:12 am
obviously this depends but there has to be a point/class year where firms do try to push out (which also includes firms making it more difficult for you to get 2k or whatever hours you need to be "safe") an average associate at a higher rate. curious about this as well as a mid who wants to stick out for 2 more years but definitely worried about getting pushed out earlier. i think my hours and work product (for the level) probably average or below average.
If you're worried about getting pushed out before you leave in 2 years just lateral now. You'll get a signing bonus and ramp-up period, and 2 years is too short for them to realize you're below average and try to push you out.
Re: When do associates start getting pushed out?
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:08 am
by Anonymous User
I'd say 5% after 1 year.
It rachetts up after 2 years and especially 3 years.
Re: When do associates start getting pushed out?
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:18 am
by Anonymous User
Thoughts on this scnenario..
lateraled in as a 4th year.. now 6th year.. definitely will make hours no problem but main parnters clearly aren't thrilled with your work. lots of 8-10 year associates at the firm. think they'll push me out or can i ride this train for another 3-4 before going in house? l&e group.
Re: When do associates start getting pushed out?
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:31 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:02 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:12 am
obviously this depends but there has to be a point/class year where firms do try to push out (which also includes firms making it more difficult for you to get 2k or whatever hours you need to be "safe") an average associate at a higher rate. curious about this as well as a mid who wants to stick out for 2 more years but definitely worried about getting pushed out earlier. i think my hours and work product (for the level) probably average or below average.
If you're worried about getting pushed out before you leave in 2 years just lateral now. You'll get a signing bonus and ramp-up period, and 2 years is too short for them to realize you're below average and try to push you out.
a good idea, just that i already lateraled so i dont think i can lateral anymore. this firm is likely my last firm.
Re: When do associates start getting pushed out?
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:44 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:31 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:02 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:12 am
obviously this depends but there has to be a point/class year where firms do try to push out (which also includes firms making it more difficult for you to get 2k or whatever hours you need to be "safe") an average associate at a higher rate. curious about this as well as a mid who wants to stick out for 2 more years but definitely worried about getting pushed out earlier. i think my hours and work product (for the level) probably average or below average.
If you're worried about getting pushed out before you leave in 2 years just lateral now. You'll get a signing bonus and ramp-up period, and 2 years is too short for them to realize you're below average and try to push you out.
a good idea, just that i already lateraled so i dont think i can lateral anymore. this firm is likely my last firm.
Maybe time to hunker down and do whatever it takes to be good at your job then?
Re: When do associates start getting pushed out?
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:03 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:18 am
Thoughts on this scnenario..
lateraled in as a 4th year.. now 6th year.. definitely will make hours no problem but main parnters clearly aren't thrilled with your work. lots of 8-10 year associates at the firm. think they'll push me out or can i ride this train for another 3-4 before going in house? l&e group.
smart money says you're out within 2 years, i'd try to go inhouse now.
Re: When do associates start getting pushed out?
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:12 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:03 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:18 am
Thoughts on this scnenario..
lateraled in as a 4th year.. now 6th year.. definitely will make hours no problem but main parnters clearly aren't thrilled with your work. lots of 8-10 year associates at the firm. think they'll push me out or can i ride this train for another 3-4 before going in house? l&e group.
smart money says you're out within 2 years, i'd try to go inhouse now.
What are some of the things you’ve been told. How can you tell they aren’t thrilled?
Re: When do associates start getting pushed out?
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:14 pm
by Anonymous User
This is a badly constructed poll. V25 firms are often not pushing people out until 10+ years in a career. It's very different than it was 10-20 years ago though I don't think this fact has sufficiently percolated through the "common wisdom" that law students get yet (it will in time). As others have said, many law firms, particularly those that are thriving, are very happy to have people stay around effectively forever as long as they're continuing to bill and do good work and are happy "only" making their 500-800k rather than the millions that they'd get through equity.
If you're asking about when attrition starts hitting firms (which is a different question), the answer is especially around years 3-4 and then I think there's another bump around years 6-8. The first group is for people who stick around for a couple years, sometimes to just pay off debt, but realize after a year or two how much they hate practicing in biglaw. The next group is for people who go through a life stage change, which often happens around senior associate years (marriage / kids / suburbs start happening) and there's a portion of people who reevaluate whether they want to be in biglaw around this time.
Re: When do associates start getting pushed out?
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:34 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:14 pm
This is a badly constructed poll. V25 firms are often not pushing people out until 10+ years in a career. It's very different than it was 10-20 years ago though I don't think this fact has sufficiently percolated through the "common wisdom" that law students get yet (it will in time). As others have said, many law firms, particularly those that are thriving, are very happy to have people stay around effectively forever as long as they're continuing to bill and do good work and are happy "only" making their 500-800k rather than the millions that they'd get through equity.
If you're asking about when
attrition starts hitting firms (which is a different question), the answer is especially around years 3-4 and then I think there's another bump around years 6-8. The first group is for people who stick around for a couple years, sometimes to just pay off debt, but realize after a year or two how much they hate practicing in biglaw. The next group is for people who go through a life stage change, which often happens around senior associate years (marriage / kids / suburbs start happening) and there's a portion of people who reevaluate whether they want to be in biglaw around this time.
I'd add that the 6-8 bump also includes some those who recognize they don't have a (good) shot at elevation and decide to cut their losses. These people are not "pushed out." Rather, they look to their left and right and see that either they don't stack up to some rock star peer or their odds just aren't that good.
Re: When do associates start getting pushed out?
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:39 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:14 pm
This is a badly constructed poll. V25 firms are often not pushing people out until 10+ years in a career. It's very different than it was 10-20 years ago though I don't think this fact has sufficiently percolated through the "common wisdom" that law students get yet (it will in time). As others have said, many law firms, particularly those that are thriving, are very happy to have people stay around effectively forever as long as they're continuing to bill and do good work and are happy "only" making their 500-800k rather than the millions that they'd get through equity.
If you're asking about when
attrition starts hitting firms (which is a different question), the answer is especially around years 3-4 and then I think there's another bump around years 6-8. The first group is for people who stick around for a couple years, sometimes to just pay off debt, but realize after a year or two how much they hate practicing in biglaw. The next group is for people who go through a life stage change, which often happens around senior associate years (marriage / kids / suburbs start happening) and there's a portion of people who reevaluate whether they want to be in biglaw around this time.
The poll is about being PUSHED OUT against your will. Thanks for your views.
Re: When do associates start getting pushed out?
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:54 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:39 pm
The poll is about being PUSHED OUT against your will. Thanks for your views.
And your options aren't reflective when someone would get pushed out... You need to add 7, 8, 9, and 10+.
As asked, the best answer is none of the above, which isn't even an option. So it's a poorly crafted poll.
Re: When do associates start getting pushed out?
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:01 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:54 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:39 pm
The poll is about being PUSHED OUT against your will. Thanks for your views.
And your options aren't reflective when someone would get pushed out... You need to add 7, 8, 9, and 10+.
As asked, the best answer is none of the above, which isn't even an option. So it's a poorly crafted poll.
Not the OP and maybe this is not what OP is asking in the polls, but the more relevant question is at which class year do you get pushed out for doing "average or below average work" (i.e. not "good work"). Obviously, if you are consistently hitting 2k hours and do good work, you aren't going to be get pushed out in the first 1-6 years (or is anyone actually worried about being pushed out at year 3/4 as a "good associate"?.