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Incoming 1L at YSCH. I know it’s biglaw so everywhere is hell and you’re basically forced to start out in a big market like NY, but I’ve heard places like San Diego have fairly bearable hour requirements. Any other locations come to kind or could any SD associate confirm this?

You’re absolutely not required to start out in NY, especially in litigation—even at the top schools a good number of people start in secondary and tertiary markets. For example, I know of recent Supreme Court clerks who began private practice in Birmingham, Columbus, and Cleveland. My YSHC class had people start private practice in Atlanta, Baltimore, Boston, Cleveland, Denver, Des Moines, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Nashville, St. Louis, and Orange County, just off the top of my head (though weirdly nobody in SD specifically that I can think of).

I moved to San Diego because I figured it was the best place to live where I could be paid on the normal biglaw pay scale. It worked out for me. My firm is decidedly more chill than the one I previously worked for, which is in a more traditional legal market (though that firm wasn't bad and it's also just one data point). I hit 2000 hours a year and people are happy with it. People are nice. I see the ocean every day. I don't know what any other firm in San Diego is like.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:25 pm

I know of recent Supreme Court clerks who began private practice in Birmingham, Columbus, and Cleveland.

Genius move, especially Cleveland. You could buy a literal mansion there with just the signing bonus.

How are Florida cities (excluding Miami)?

Also go to one of those schools and have had discussions about this with the school advisors. Generalizing a ton, but DC is usually described as the worst work/life balance, followed closely by NYC. West Coast is described as being more "chill" but my understanding is that's misleading. Those firms might not require as much face time, but many of the top firms still require a similar amount of hours...though I haven't heard of any firms in CA that implicitly expect 2200 hours or more, whereas that sounds more normal in some NYC shops. All this to say it's not enough to filer by location, you also need to look into the specific firms and learn which are known to be the sweatshops in the area (and associates are, in my experience, happy to share)

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:57 pm

Also go to one of those schools and have had discussions about this with the school advisors. Generalizing a ton, but DC is usually described as the worst work/life balance, followed closely by NYC. West Coast is described as being more "chill" but my understanding is that's misleading. Those firms might not require as much face time, but many of the top firms still require a similar amount of hours...though I haven't heard of any firms in CA that implicitly expect 2200 hours or more, whereas that sounds more normal in some NYC shops. All this to say it's not enough to filer by location, you also need to look into the specific firms and learn which are known to be the sweatshops in the area (and associates are, in my experience, happy to share)

I've always thought NYC was considered more intense than DC by quite a bit - at least outside of the top boutiques in DC. Is that incorrect?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:57 pm

Generalizing a ton, but DC is usually described as the worst work/life balance, followed closely by NYC.

wut

Any word on Houston?

Thinking market paying biglaw firms for corporate

You can go anywhere and bill 1,900, which is palatable, and survive. Even in NY, nobody is getting fired for consistently pulling 1,900 hours. At current V10 first year rates, that'd be $1.2 million in revenue. By the time you're a 4th-5th year and charging nearly $1,000, you're at $1.9 million, which is the current non-Wachtell top for RPL. People who bill 2200+ are people who do not know how to set boundaries, are workaholics, or are at places so toxic where you cannot set boundaries.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:57 pm

Also go to one of those schools and have had discussions about this with the school advisors. Generalizing a ton, but DC is usually described as the worst work/life balance, followed closely by NYC. West Coast is described as being more "chill" but my understanding is that's misleading. Those firms might not require as much face time, but many of the top firms still require a similar amount of hours...though I haven't heard of any firms in CA that implicitly expect 2200 hours or more, whereas that sounds more normal in some NYC shops. All this to say it's not enough to filer by location, you also need to look into the specific firms and learn which are known to be the sweatshops in the area (and associates are, in my experience, happy to share)

I've always thought NYC was considered more intense than DC by quite a bit - at least outside of the top boutiques in DC. Is that incorrect?

Again, generalizing a ton, but my understanding and the general info we receive (my school sends quite a few students to DC) is that DC and NYC are at least equal in terms of intensity, and if anything DC is slightly more intense. This doesn't include the DC boutiques known to be sweatshops

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:57 pm

Also go to one of those schools and have had discussions about this with the school advisors. Generalizing a ton, but DC is usually described as the worst work/life balance, followed closely by NYC. West Coast is described as being more "chill" but my understanding is that's misleading. Those firms might not require as much face time, but many of the top firms still require a similar amount of hours...though I haven't heard of any firms in CA that implicitly expect 2200 hours or more, whereas that sounds more normal in some NYC shops. All this to say it's not enough to filer by location, you also need to look into the specific firms and learn which are known to be the sweatshops in the area (and associates are, in my experience, happy to share)

I've always thought NYC was considered more intense than DC by quite a bit - at least outside of the top boutiques in DC. Is that incorrect?

Again, generalizing a ton, but my understanding and the general info we receive (my school sends quite a few students to DC) is that DC and NYC are at least equal in terms of intensity, and if anything DC is slightly more intense. This doesn't include the DC boutiques known to be sweatshops

Have never heard this. Anyone who's worked in both or have some firsthand info care to chime in?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:37 pm

Any word on Houston?

Thinking market paying biglaw firms for corporate

not going to be much different in terms of billables vs nyc

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:57 pm

Generalizing a ton, but DC is usually described as the worst work/life balance, followed closely by NYC.

my understanding is it's exactly the opposite--my firm is supposedly sweaty for DC but the same hours requirements would be roughly average in NYC

Having worked at a DC firm with many friends and former classmates working in NY firms, can confirm that NY firms are far less "chill" than DC firms on average. Almost everyone I know in NY works longer and later hours and is expected to be responsive around the clock. At my firm, when I have to work on weekends, partners and senior associates are apologetic. At NY firms, that seems to be the expectation with little recognition that you may be canceling plans to work instead. Even within my firm, I've found that associates in the NY office work more hours and are expected to be responding to emails at all hours of the day to partners who are far less understanding that they may have obligations outside the office.

IME, for transactional work, NYC is the most intense because of large teams and high expectations. Expansive, exciting, expensive, exhausting city.

Bay Area can get intense, but it feels different. A little more optimistic than the east coast. Tons to do outside within driving distance, and people try to take advantage of it. An incredibly expensive place to be an adult.

Austin and Dallas are both more balanced than Houston, which is actually pretty intense. Austin is prettier and more interesting than Dallas, but Dallas has great sports and, surprisingly, gets better touring acts. Texas itself is fun and makes financial sense but it is hot and isolated geographically (you have to fly to get anywhere else).

Atlanta isn't particularly chill. The city always feels overly busy to me. Still, it's pretty and the people are nice (once outside of their cars). The airport is kind of far away from where most people live, but once there, it is very well connected.

Charlotte is great. Fewer things to fight here. Not the most exciting city by any stretch, but having beaches and mountains within easy driving distance makes planning things spontaneously way easier. Lots of nice homes here, and not as expensive as Austin.

TLDR: Assuming market pay, I like Charlotte, Austin, and Dallas, probably in that order. But had I responded a few years ago, or if pay was different, my list would change.

towel13661 wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:57 pm

Generalizing a ton, but DC is usually described as the worst work/life balance, followed closely by NYC.

my understanding is it's exactly the opposite--my firm is supposedly sweaty for DC but the same hours requirements would be roughly average in NYC

New poster. I think this boils down to differing opinion about what makes a firm "intense." DC is much more selective and requires much better grades. DC partners may expect more of DC associates in terms of their research and legal writing skills. However, DC lawyers work significantly fewer hours and get off work much earlier.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:57 pm

Also go to one of those schools and have had discussions about this with the school advisors. Generalizing a ton, but DC is usually described as the worst work/life balance, followed closely by NYC. West Coast is described as being more "chill" but my understanding is that's misleading. Those firms might not require as much face time, but many of the top firms still require a similar amount of hours...though I haven't heard of any firms in CA that implicitly expect 2200 hours or more, whereas that sounds more normal in some NYC shops. All this to say it's not enough to filer by location, you also need to look into the specific firms and learn which are known to be the sweatshops in the area (and associates are, in my experience, happy to share)

I've always thought NYC was considered more intense than DC by quite a bit - at least outside of the top boutiques in DC. Is that incorrect?

Again, generalizing a ton, but my understanding and the general info we receive (my school sends quite a few students to DC) is that DC and NYC are at least equal in terms of intensity, and if anything DC is slightly more intense. This doesn't include the DC boutiques known to be sweatshops

I’ve never heard this in my life, and as others have said, IME, it is not true

Any Denver insight?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 14, 2022 8:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:57 pm

Also go to one of those schools and have had discussions about this with the school advisors. Generalizing a ton, but DC is usually described as the worst work/life balance, followed closely by NYC. West Coast is described as being more "chill" but my understanding is that's misleading. Those firms might not require as much face time, but many of the top firms still require a similar amount of hours...though I haven't heard of any firms in CA that implicitly expect 2200 hours or more, whereas that sounds more normal in some NYC shops. All this to say it's not enough to filer by location, you also need to look into the specific firms and learn which are known to be the sweatshops in the area (and associates are, in my experience, happy to share)

I've always thought NYC was considered more intense than DC by quite a bit - at least outside of the top boutiques in DC. Is that incorrect?

Again, generalizing a ton, but my understanding and the general info we receive (my school sends quite a few students to DC) is that DC and NYC are at least equal in terms of intensity, and if anything DC is slightly more intense. This doesn't include the DC boutiques known to be sweatshops

I’ve never heard this in my life, and as others have said, IME, it is not true

Okay good, I have only heard the opposite. I agree with the other poster that said because DC has a higher threshold of acceptable grades, etc. that they might expect more from associates, but I don't think the hour/responsiveness is the same as NYC.

On the DC vs. NY point, I'm at the DC office of my firm but pretty routinely work cross office with people in NY. It is very clear that the NY folks are much more likely to be online late at night or on the weekends and you even see a bit of a difference in how they speak to you on this (e.g., NY partners will ask for weekend calls and make jokes about how the weekend isn't any different from a week day whereas DC partners will always give lots of heads up and express sympathy for the fact that the work needs to be done on a weekend in the less frequent occurrence that it happens).

Any insights on LA?

Can't speak for Austin, but the Texas cities are far less chill than they used to be perceived (query whether the hours were ever that different from other markets).

I am in Dallas, and the hours in my office to be universally similar to our NY and DC offices. Houston is as bad if not worse depending on the group.

There a lot of advantages to TX Biglaw, but hours aren't one of them.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 15, 2022 8:26 am

Any insights on LA?

Hit or miss, but several severe sweatshops that stack up with anything in NY. At least the dress code is more relaxed s/

The answer is the west coast, Bay Area in particular. Part of that is driven by the strength of the in-house market there. I watch attorneys on west coast teams just leave if the work gets too much; they don't care because they can walk into a FAANG or FAANG-adjacent job in a week. This makes cross-country deals fun when you have a NY work culture bumping up against a Palo Alto work culture *plus* the time difference ....