Avoiding RTO Forum

[Anonymous User]

Getting back to the topic here, a strategy I've been employing to minimize time in the office is just showing up for half the day (either 9-12 or 12-3) for like 3 days a week, just enough so that the partners see my face but in reality I'm only really there for like 1.5 days every week. Then I leave some papers on my desk (maybe a coffee cup or something if I'm really committed to the bit) and dip.

Only way it works is that my office is a short walk from my apartment, otherwise this strategy will not work since it's a huge pain getting to/from the office for just 3ish hours.

Probably the best strategy possible for people who can easily get to the office. During my firm's last ill-fated RTO (before Omicron), I basically did the same thing and came in for 2-3 hours in order to be seen. Now I'm just not showing up at all.

[Anonymous User]

"By asking firms to change [to RTO], you're imposing your preferences on the status quo, not them."

I submit that the baseline you've chosen (pre-pandemic, every one in office) is arbitrary. WFH people would have the same arguments then that they have now. They were then having their values trampled upon as they would in an RTO-world. The "R" just was not a thing in the pre-pandemic world.

"As I've belabored before, in my office so few people follow the RTO guidelines that it's laughable. That means that nobody gets the important mentorship opportunities that are necessary for growth."

Again, this is you imposing your preferences on others. People get mentorship in a variety of different ways. Who is to say that the person sitting at home isn't learning very valuable things that they wouldn't be learning if they were forced to work in an office all day?

"if you do as you suggest and run errands or do other stuff while working from home during business hours, you are absolutely imposing on others who might need you on short notice. Hauling you into the office and having you sit there 9-5 is the only way to make sure you're available during business hours."

I am not the earlier anon, I am a new person, and I am not advocating for fucking around during the workday. TBH, I would work more in a fully virtual world -- I am more productive there. My availability is superficial if I am turning into a potato at my desk. Yes, I will tell you that I'll review x, y, or z, but I'm not going to be very efficient at it if I am miserable. I don't feel very miserable sitting at home, hanging with my dog and wife, listening to my music, and drinking my fancy coffee. That's how I operate best and I simply cannot do that in a RTO world.

Can two people impose on each other at the same time? Asking for a friend, who happens to be imposing this on me cuz I'm imposing on him by using his TLS account.

You incessant RTO folks just cannot understand a two sided argument can you? We got you to finally see that it's a judgment call, but now you just complain about "who is imposing on whom." I get it. You want to WFH all day every day. Totally reasonable request. But that's just like your opinion man.

If you could step out of your antisocial homebody world for literally two seconds, how is it okay for you to say "I'm more productive at home with my wife" but not for a partner to say "I'm more productive when I can just walk down the hall and talk to the boots on the ground"? IDGAF if you feel imposed on, you work for the partner, the reason you get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars is because the partners hired you, so fuck if I know I'm going to let the partner pick. Someone said we're going to get more burnout. Fuck if I know, but my guess is aside from the self-selecting anti-social TLS types most of us would actually feel better seeing their colleagues. Call me a bootlicker, but if you don't like it, either leave or wait it out and prove me wrong.

Anyway, we part-time RTO people have dropped numerous valid arguments to appease your fragile, imposed-upon egos. Mentorship is just the beginning of it all. Face to face time builds loyalty (even if you work for jerks, you commiserate with colleagues). Personal relationships do mean something in the workplace, and if you don't care then that's your loss. Collaboration is indisputably easier in person. I'm done talking about how hard it is on you for us to go back to how it's been for literally all of ever.

It's really hard to describe just how cringe this post is. lol Sincerely hope you never manage people.

[Anonymous User]

It's really hard to describe just how cringe this post is. lol Sincerely hope you never manage people.

Always happy to build up a shit employee , even if it's at the detriment of my own reputation. Matches my management style (buck stops here), so I guess that's why so many keep trying to work with me, both more senior and more junior. May also have to do with my ability to see two sides of every story, unlike you cringe WFH fetishists who can't see past your own antisocial homebody world. Enjoy missing out!

MOD NOTE: USER CORNERSTONE OUTED FOR ANON ABUSE

[Anonymous User]

Getting back to the topic here, a strategy I've been employing to minimize time in the office is just showing up for half the day (either 9-12 or 12-3) for like 3 days a week, just enough so that the partners see my face but in reality I'm only really there for like 1.5 days every week. Then I leave some papers on my desk (maybe a coffee cup or something if I'm really committed to the bit) and dip.

Only way it works is that my office is a short walk from my apartment, otherwise this strategy will not work since it's a huge pain getting to/from the office for just 3ish hours.

I’ll admit that my favorite thing about the office being open and being encouraged to come in (rather than official RTO) was coming in half days. It was so nice to be able to grab lunch and head home, or eat lunch and head out. (Access to my kitchen is one of my favorite things about WFH.) Like you, though, I live close to where I work, so yeah, otherwise there isn’t much point.

[Anonymous User]

I’m also not even sure what people are arguing about at this point. Is anyone (here) saying that everyone should be back in the office 5 days a week? Or are people just feeling like their own preferences have been attacked?

I do find it a little weird that a lot of the RTO crowd seem to say “back in the office at least to some extent” with room for WFH as well, and a lot of the WFH crowd seem to consider any requirement to be back in the office ever as illegitimate. Are there any WFH people who could get behind a minimal office requirement? Or is it just that RTO is pointless right now because when you go in no one’s there anyway? If that weren’t case, would your take be different?

This is the only sensible thing that's been said on this thread for awhile. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who was vigorously RTO 5 days a week - most people (myself included) who come in several days a week like having the flexibility and would be supremely annoyed were it to get yanked entirely, but also understand the value of some face time for the various career development reasons people have talked about ITT (the economic collapse argument of abandoned office buildings, by contrast, is . . . not convincing). The WFH absolutists are both oddly unable to acknowledge that there is at least some value to live, in-person human interaction and deluded because there is almost no way that permanent WFH is going to happen across the industry. Maybe that's why they're so vituperative -- because they know they're on a sinking ship.

[Anonymous User]

Getting back to the topic here, a strategy I've been employing to minimize time in the office is just showing up for half the day (either 9-12 or 12-3) for like 3 days a week, just enough so that the partners see my face but in reality I'm only really there for like 1.5 days every week. Then I leave some papers on my desk (maybe a coffee cup or something if I'm really committed to the bit) and dip.

Only way it works is that my office is a short walk from my apartment, otherwise this strategy will not work since it's a huge pain getting to/from the office for just 3ish hours.

I’ll admit that my favorite thing about the office being open and being encouraged to come in (rather than official RTO) was coming in half days. It was so nice to be able to grab lunch and head home, or eat lunch and head out. (Access to my kitchen is one of my favorite things about WFH.) Like you, though, I live close to where I work, so yeah, otherwise there isn’t much point.

One awesome thing about the RTO push is all the free lunches/dinners firms are now offering in order to lure us back in. Honestly, I am most likely outing myself as a lazy/fat POS, but if my firm ordered us lunch everyday I'd probably be in-person like 4x/week. The time saved on cooking/dishes makes the commute much, much more manageable. (Partners, if you're listening, feed us more pls and thank.)

[Anonymous User]

One awesome thing about the RTO push is all the free lunches/dinners firms are now offering in order to lure us back in. Honestly, I am most likely outing myself as a lazy/fat POS, but if my firm ordered us lunch everyday I'd probably be in-person like 4x/week. The time saved on cooking/dishes makes the commute much, much more manageable. (Partners, if you're listening, feed us more pls and thank.)

I can DoorDash lunch (or walk outside for 5 minutes to pick it up) for like $20-25 on the high end after tax and tip. Seems like you're a pretty cheap date. No judgment, just think it's funny that we are talking $100 a week max to change behavior in this way for a job that pays as much as ours does.

[Anonymous User]

One awesome thing about the RTO push is all the free lunches/dinners firms are now offering in order to lure us back in. Honestly, I am most likely outing myself as a lazy/fat POS, but if my firm ordered us lunch everyday I'd probably be in-person like 4x/week. The time saved on cooking/dishes makes the commute much, much more manageable. (Partners, if you're listening, feed us more pls and thank.)

I can DoorDash lunch (or walk outside for 5 minutes to pick it up) for like $20-25 on the high end after tax and tip. Seems like you're a pretty cheap date. No judgment, just think it's funny that we are talking $100 a week max to change behavior in this way for a job that pays as much as ours does.

Agreed. My office is now offering weekly raffles ($10-25 gift cards) for those who are in the office, with winners announced in office-wide emails. Really?

[Anonymous User]

I’m also not even sure what people are arguing about at this point. Is anyone (here) saying that everyone should be back in the office 5 days a week? Or are people just feeling like their own preferences have been attacked?

I do find it a little weird that a lot of the RTO crowd seem to say “back in the office at least to some extent” with room for WFH as well, and a lot of the WFH crowd seem to consider any requirement to be back in the office ever as illegitimate. Are there any WFH people who could get behind a minimal office requirement? Or is it just that RTO is pointless right now because when you go in no one’s there anyway? If that weren’t case, would your take be different?

This is the only sensible thing that's been said on this thread for awhile. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who was vigorously RTO 5 days a week - most people (myself included) who come in several days a week like having the flexibility and would be supremely annoyed were it to get yanked entirely, but also understand the value of some face time for the various career development reasons people have talked about ITT (the economic collapse argument of abandoned office buildings, by contrast, is . . . not convincing). The WFH absolutists are both oddly unable to acknowledge that there is at least some value to live, in-person human interaction and deluded because there is almost no way that permanent WFH is going to happen across the industry. Maybe that's why they're so vituperative -- because they know they're on a sinking ship.

I just want to add a few things that have come to mind as I'm reading. Hope they help people consider from a different perspective; not trying to re-hash a fight that some other people are having, but feeling like some points could be brought up. I'm doing a bit of stream of consciousness here, so bear with me. Also, stay healthy out there everyone!

• 1. WFH is actually the standard now, not office work. We all acknowledge that, as of right now, WFH is still the dominant work trend and/or the mainstream for lawyers. So, this idea that "permanent work from home will never happen," I think is frustrating to read/listen to/hear repeated. It's happening right now. It's been 2.5 years, not 12 days to slow the spread, and a little at-home vacation. This is actually how life is now and it is frustrating, as someone who wants full RTO to hear people, in my opinion, arguing for a reality that simply just does not exist at this point in time to be the norm for us all. The norm as of right now is WFH, saying it will never happen, in my opinion, feels like denying reality and how can anyone make serious points if we're just denying reality?
  2. Many people have been onboarded virtually. For those people, there is no "return" to the office. The office never existed. This is about creating a brand new habit, which is much harder for someone who has never done the thing that corporations are asking them to do. This idea that having spontaneous interactions with colleagues we've never met in person, to build relationships during an 8-10 billable hour day, should be what sustains our desire to go back is fanciful to me. If my firm cannot train me remotely when it is infinitely cheaper and easier to do it (aka hopping on a call with someone is genuinely easier than going to their office for some of us who work in cross-office teams) then they most likely will not train me in person as well. Going in for the friend time is just not what work is about. I don't open my work laptop to have social time. I don't go to work to make friends. I am simply here to be America's Next Top Model (and bill my time and leave).
  3. I really am extremely frustrated with RTO policies because they are inexcusably vague and unworkable. "we'll let you know if things change," "you have to live 'within commuting distance of the office even when you are WFH,'" "we know covid is an evolving situation," etc. It's been 2.5 years, I get that it's hard to make a policy and that these are 'unprecedented times,' but for some of us, the jxs we barred in or now live have simply become unlivable over the last two years in terms of expenses and QOL. I want a permanent WFH option because I simply cannot afford to keep living as a renter even with this salary (because of my student loans). It's not fair to keep us and our lives in this awful holding pattern. This will it work, won't it work scenario for RTO is unfair to all of us. I want to leave the city I live in and driving back into it to pretend I live within commuting distance of an office that I literally never go to (and neither does anyone else) actually fills me with horrible feelings and terrible mental energy. It's such a drag and we deserve to, and have proven ourselves to be capable of, responsibly working remotely with no detriment to profit.
  4. Please stop blaming the juniors. I know a lot of people think highly of themselves and past selves, and I'm sure many juniors aren't that great. But, I've also worked for a lot of bad senior associates and mid-levels who had a lot of in-office time and that didn't seem to help them become the shining attorneys and managers people are claiming it will. Even if the juniors suck there is literally no metric to convincingly discuss how much suckier they are than they used to be. It's not even a fair argument for why everyone should have to give up their freedoms.
  5. The thing that makes this job bearable is working from home. When I get an urgent overnight request to process comments on a draft of a motion being filed in 2-3 days, not having to go to the office that day or the next morning just to please a partner actually makes turning comments at 3am on a Thursday bearable. If you want 24-hour service, let me do it from bed. It's not humane to force people to work these stupid hours AND give the limited, tiny, small amount of free time they have to take care of themselves back to the corporation which employs them. Availability is not the same thing as free time. We all deserve to have well-rounded, fulfilling lives no matter our job. It is infinitely harder to achieve this for women and people of color who are 100% WRONGLY judged on appearance/bias factors and who may need different accommodations at different points in their careers (child care, elder care, pregnancy). WFH gives all of us a more* equal opportunity to be valued for our contributions and not work ourselves to death doing it. These are serious benefits we should not be asked to forgo against our will simply to raise commercial real estate values or maintain poor urban planning. If there are serious, quantifiable benefits to RTO that overcome these incredible benefits and freedoms of WFH, then the burden of proof is on the law firms. Vaguely saying it's about the "culture" is simply not good enough. It's not my fault New York City thought the future would always be work and opted for 12 miles of skyscrapers and barely enough housing for its inhabitants. I shouldn't have to give up a shot at being treated equally to my male, white colleagues & the only clear pathway of lowering my living costs, just because the "juniors need it" without any further explanation of why, or how it's impossible to provide what juniors need in a remote environment or because something good for the firm might spontaneously happen in an uncertain RTO future.

[Anonymous User]

Can we call a truce between the factions and go back to practical discussion? This thread will not change policy.

Personally, I drive to work (on days I go in ofc). During rush hour it can take 45-hr, but off rush hours it's 20-30 minutes. The other day I went in about 12-7, it was awesome, saved about an hours or more in commuting time. And I made all the in person meetings that day, showed my face etc. That to me is hopefully the new normal.

[Anonymous User]

As a 1L looking for firms to apply to, WFH flexibility is pretty big for me and most other people I know. I would expect firms with strong WFH flexibility to fare better in recruiting, all else being equal, than firms that are mandating RTO.

[Anonymous User]

I haven't seen much discussion on this forum about this but DPW has dictated "mandatory" Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday attendance for lawyers. Any thoughts?

https://abovethelaw.com/2022/04/top-big ... ttendance/

[Anonymous User]

I haven't seen much discussion on this forum about this but DPW has dictated "mandatory" Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday attendance for lawyers. Any thoughts?

https://abovethelaw.com/2022/04/top-big ... ttendance/

For anyone not planning to push for partner and just want to hang around until mid-level (and happy to lateral another time before making the in-house move), these mandates are laughable

[Anonymous User]

I haven't seen much discussion on this forum about this but DPW has dictated "mandatory" Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday attendance for lawyers. Any thoughts?

https://abovethelaw.com/2022/04/top-big ... ttendance/

Tue-Wed-Thu office attendance is also "mandatory" now at Kirkland and it's not really being enforced. Will be curious to see how it goes elsewhere, since I think it strikes the best balance for everyone involved and could become a real "new normal" for biglaw firms too scared to allow full WFH flexibility five days a week.

[Anonymous User]

My (satellite office of a) firm is also going to TWTh. I'd name it if I thought it was useful information. I think that's becoming the new normal for most firms.

As far as "mandatory" goes, even before WFH people had various reasons to work remotely here and there, or meetings, or whatever. And there's not much appetite to fight with irreplaceable associates. So I think we have to wait and see what it means in practice.

[Anonymous User]

I am in-house, which is different from most in this thread, and so the experience may not be directly applicable to firm life. But I'll put in my two cents.

We've already had significant losses from senior/executive level people who don't want to return to the office. It's a real thing. Some of it is older folks just retiring, but there's a good number of others who are willing to jump ship just so they don't have to commute. Remote work is a real way to compete for talent now. To the extent where we're rethinking our return to office plans. It's just not going to ever be the same, and even the most senior execs are realizing that.

I have no reason to think firms won't ultimately be the same. Certainly, as someone reviewing bills, I don't care. One day in the office, maybe two, is understandable. But 3-4 seems unnecessary. I worked in biglaw for a while, and most of the times I didn't interact with the partners I was working with in person, or if I did, it wasn't substantive (and was usually over the phone). The "mentoring" that happens (lol) can easily be pre-planned. Yes, it's a slight imposition on partners to have to use zoom when you want to talk to someone, which previously has been unheard of, but boo hoo. Now that I'm in house, I appreciate the efficiency virtual working has brought to our bills. And we will side with those who continue to deliver more for less, versus those who want to hold bloated, unnecessary meetings in person.

All of this said, it will take a while for long term remote work to take hold, but I have not doubt it will. Too many clients, partners, and good associates want to work remotely, and they outweigh those who want to be in the office every day. Remote work will be the new extra $10k on bonuses.

[Anonymous User]

double post

[Anonymous User]

I'm a V20 5th year. I think it also depends on how much your practice area needs good camaraderie. For instance, in M&A, you work crazy long hours with little sleep and during those late nights, it's just much more tolerable if you are actually with your colleagues eating pizza, fried chicken or what have you, and talking about not only work, but also life. None of that is present if everyone works from home. I do like the flexibility of working from home, but think mandatory two or three days in the office should be fine at least for that office camaraderie.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a V20 5th year. I think it also depends on how much your practice area needs good camaraderie. For instance, in M&A, you work crazy long hours with little sleep and during those late nights, it's just much more tolerable if you are actually with your colleagues eating pizza, fried chicken or what have you, and talking about not only work, but also life. None of that is present if everyone works from home. I do like the flexibility of working from home, but think mandatory two or three days in the office should be fine at least for that office camaraderie.

Counterpoint: the only way I am able to survive the crazy late nights is by being able to take a break and have dinner with my family, say hi to the kids when the get home from school, etc. It gives me a semblance of normality. I don't want to eat pizza with you at the office at midnight. No offense.

Also, if I'm getting to sleep at 2am, I'd really rather not have to get up the next day and shower, shave, commute during rush hour.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a V20 5th year. I think it also depends on how much your practice area needs good camaraderie. For instance, in M&A, you work crazy long hours with little sleep and during those late nights, it's just much more tolerable if you are actually with your colleagues eating pizza, fried chicken or what have you, and talking about not only work, but also life. None of that is present if everyone works from home. I do like the flexibility of working from home, but think mandatory two or three days in the office should be fine at least for that office camaraderie.

Just stop. Idk if you're trolling, but if not, this is one of the worst arguments for RTO I've heard. There are some of us who have lives outside of work. The last thing I want after pulling an all-nighter to close a deal is to be forced into the office away from my wife and kids so you can sit in the conference room and eat fried chicken with your work friends. In a WFH world, you and your buddies can still eat all the fried chicken you want either in-office or at your house. Have at it.

[blair.waldorf]

I'm a V20 5th year. I think it also depends on how much your practice area needs good camaraderie. For instance, in M&A, you work crazy long hours with little sleep and during those late nights, it's just much more tolerable if you are actually with your colleagues eating pizza, fried chicken or what have you, and talking about not only work, but also life. None of that is present if everyone works from home. I do like the flexibility of working from home, but think mandatory two or three days in the office should be fine at least for that office camaraderie.

Counterpoint: the only way I am able to survive the crazy late nights is by being able to take a break and have dinner with my family, say hi to the kids when the get home from school, etc. It gives me a semblance of normality. I don't want to eat pizza with you at the office at midnight. No offense.

Also, if I'm getting to sleep at 2am, I'd really rather not have to get up the next day and shower, shave, commute during rush hour.

Agreed. I don’t have kids yet but the only thing that makes the super long days and nights bearable is sitting in my sweatpants, taking a 10 minute walk with my dog for a screen break, and seeing my partner for a few minutes here and there. Also, if I go to bed at 3 am, I have to get up between 6 and 7 if I need to get ready to go into the office and commute. I can sleep until maybe 8-8:30 if I am working from home. Huge difference in my performance if I sleep 5 hours instead of 3.

I’m pretty social and I really like the people I work with, but there is basically nothing I’d rather do less than be stuck in an office for 18 hours straight just to chat with my colleagues over pizza at 2 am.

[Anonymous User]

I thought we had settled this? You WFH absolutists really need to learn how to view something from someone else's perspective. Perhaps having an in-person conversation would help?

I just want to add a few things that have come to mind as I'm reading. Hope they help people consider from a different perspective; not trying to re-hash a fight that some other people are having, but feeling like some points could be brought up. I'm doing a bit of stream of consciousness here, so bear with me. Also, stay healthy out there everyone!

• 1. WFH is actually the standard now, not office work. We all acknowledge that, as of right now, WFH is still the dominant work trend and/or the mainstream for lawyers. So, this idea that "permanent work from home will never happen," I think is frustrating to read/listen to/hear repeated. It's happening right now. It's been 2.5 years, not 12 days to slow the spread, and a little at-home vacation. This is actually how life is now and it is frustrating, as someone who wants full RTO to hear people, in my opinion, arguing for a reality that simply just does not exist at this point in time to be the norm for us all. The norm as of right now is WFH, saying it will never happen, in my opinion, feels like denying reality and how can anyone make serious points if we're just denying reality?

Lol two and a half years does not a standard make. The vast majority of firms have been clear from the beginning that this is temporary. I get that you're used to it, but absolute statements like "WFH is the actual standard now" fly in the face of what the powers that be have said all along (right or wrong). Guess who sets the standards (hint, it's not you).

• 2. Many people have been onboarded virtually. For those people, there is no "return" to the office. The office never existed. This is about creating a brand new habit, which is much harder for someone who has never done the thing that corporations are asking them to do. This idea that having spontaneous interactions with colleagues we've never met in person, to build relationships during an 8-10 billable hour day, should be what sustains our desire to go back is fanciful to me. If my firm cannot train me remotely when it is infinitely cheaper and easier to do it (aka hopping on a call with someone is genuinely easier than going to their office for some of us who work in cross-office teams) then they most likely will not train me in person as well. Going in for the friend time is just not what work is about. I don't open my work laptop to have social time. I don't go to work to make friends. I am simply here to be America's Next Top Model (and bill my time and leave).

And many more were onboarded not virtually. Again, I get why you may want these things, but I don't know any firm where a majority of people know only remoteness. Your semantic argument about "return to the office" is a distinction without a differerence - firms have been clear all along that remote onboarding, remote working, etc. is temporary. That you've ignored those signs and come to rely on it, though understandable, means nothing.

• 3. I really am extremely frustrated with RTO policies because they are inexcusably vague and unworkable. "we'll let you know if things change," "you have to live 'within commuting distance of the office even when you are WFH,'" "we know covid is an evolving situation," etc. It's been 2.5 years, I get that it's hard to make a policy and that these are 'unprecedented times,' but for some of us, the jxs we barred in or now live have simply become unlivable over the last two years in terms of expenses and QOL. I want a permanent WFH option because I simply cannot afford to keep living as a renter even with this salary (because of my student loans). It's not fair to keep us and our lives in this awful holding pattern. This will it work, won't it work scenario for RTO is unfair to all of us. I want to leave the city I live in and driving back into it to pretend I live within commuting distance of an office that I literally never go to (and neither does anyone else) actually fills me with horrible feelings and terrible mental energy. It's such a drag and we deserve to, and have proven ourselves to be capable of, responsibly working remotely with no detriment to profit.

Your first good point. I agree and have been posting about how despite my 3-day mandatory RTO and preference for in-office interactions, I only come in ~1 day a week because nobody is there anyway. But poor implementation doesn't mean it's a bad policy. And I suspect as the pandemic wanes implementation will improve.

Also I'm not even going to dignify the expense argument. Biglaw associates get paid bank however you slice it - you can afford any city.

• 4. Please stop blaming the juniors. I know a lot of people think highly of themselves and past selves, and I'm sure many juniors aren't that great. But, I've also worked for a lot of bad senior associates and mid-levels who had a lot of in-office time and that didn't seem to help them become the shining attorneys and managers people are claiming it will. Even if the juniors suck there is literally no metric to convincingly discuss how much suckier they are than they used to be. It's not even a fair argument for why everyone should have to give up their freedoms.

Two wrongs don't make a right. It's easier both to manage and be managed in person. We're not blaming juniors, we're blaming WFH and RTO resistance.

Also lol at your milenial fairness and misconceived notions of "freedom." A job by definition means giving up freedoms (typically 8 hours of your day), and biglaw means even more of those (even freaking more). You're niave if giving up "freedoms" and the "unfairness" of your bigboy job come as a surprise.

• 5. The thing that makes this job bearable is working from home. When I get an urgent overnight request to process comments on a draft of a motion being filed in 2-3 days, not having to go to the office that day or the next morning just to please a partner actually makes turning comments at 3am on a Thursday bearable. If you want 24-hour service, let me do it from bed. It's not humane to force people to work these stupid hours AND give the limited, tiny, small amount of free time they have to take care of themselves back to the corporation which employs them. Availability is not the same thing as free time. We all deserve to have well-rounded, fulfilling lives no matter our job. It is infinitely harder to achieve this for women and people of color who are 100% WRONGLY judged on appearance/bias factors and who may need different accommodations at different points in their careers (child care, elder care, pregnancy). WFH gives all of us a more* equal opportunity to be valued for our contributions and not work ourselves to death doing it. These are serious benefits we should not be asked to forgo against our will simply to raise commercial real estate values or maintain poor urban planning. If there are serious, quantifiable benefits to RTO that overcome these incredible benefits and freedoms of WFH, then the burden of proof is on the law firms. Vaguely saying it's about the "culture" is simply not good enough. It's not my fault New York City thought the future would always be work and opted for 12 miles of skyscrapers and barely enough housing for its inhabitants. I shouldn't have to give up a shot at being treated equally to my male, white colleagues & the only clear pathway of lowering my living costs, just because the "juniors need it" without any further explanation of why, or how it's impossible to provide what juniors need in a remote environment or because something good for the firm might spontaneously happen in an uncertain RTO future.

You make good arguments for why WFH is helpful for you, but in the end of the day law firms will make a business decision. If RTO was so detrimental to their bottom line, productivity, diversity goals, etc. then why is pretty much every major firm requiring it? You say "culture" isn't good enough, but others (who have WAY more power than you) say it is. It's a judgment call, and while your opinion is certainly valid for you, you're not the one that gets to make a final decision. If you don't like what your firm decides, then find somewhere else that fits your preferences. I've heard a lot of threats about leaving, but I don't know a single person who has actually done it.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a V20 5th year. I think it also depends on how much your practice area needs good camaraderie. For instance, in M&A, you work crazy long hours with little sleep and during those late nights, it's just much more tolerable if you are actually with your colleagues eating pizza, fried chicken or what have you, and talking about not only work, but also life. None of that is present if everyone works from home. I do like the flexibility of working from home, but think mandatory two or three days in the office should be fine at least for that office camaraderie.

Just stop. Idk if you're trolling, but if not, this is one of the worst arguments for WFH I've heard. There are some of us who have lives outside of work. The last thing I want after pulling an all-nighter to close a deal is to be forced into the office away from my wife and kids so you can sit in the conference room and eat fried chicken with your work friends. In a WFH world, you and your buddies can still eat all the fried chicken you want either in-office or at your house. Have at it.

That quoted midlevel anon. I guess most folks here haven't gone through the days leading up to signing where all-nighters are common. You chit chat and eat stuff with your colleagues because you will be there all night anyway. Whether you have kids should make a difference, and I was never arguing for a full RTO if you read carefully. I don't take my job seriously, but the only things that keep me sane during the worst times in my practice area, M&A, are the pay and good colleagues.

In all honesty, I'd rather just be at home by 2 am and get some sleep, but during the craziest days leading up to signing in some deals, there's no choice. I've done this shit for over 4 years and sometimes there's just no choice other than not sleeping through the entire night. I've gone through those periods while working from home and while being with colleagues, and I prefer the latter.

One more point, what's wrong with being in the office two or three days a week? There can be more flexibility for people with children. I would hate having to be in the office for all 5 week days, but I also think it's ridiculous that offices are empty when the pandemic is not even a serious concern any more. The extremists here should learn to make compromises and live with other people. Look at the world from the other person's perspective.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a V20 5th year. I think it also depends on how much your practice area needs good camaraderie. For instance, in M&A, you work crazy long hours with little sleep and during those late nights, it's just much more tolerable if you are actually with your colleagues eating pizza, fried chicken or what have you, and talking about not only work, but also life. None of that is present if everyone works from home. I do like the flexibility of working from home, but think mandatory two or three days in the office should be fine at least for that office camaraderie.

Just stop. Idk if you're trolling, but if not, this is one of the worst arguments for WFH I've heard. There are some of us who have lives outside of work. The last thing I want after pulling an all-nighter to close a deal is to be forced into the office away from my wife and kids so you can sit in the conference room and eat fried chicken with your work friends. In a WFH world, you and your buddies can still eat all the fried chicken you want either in-office or at your house. Have at it.

That quoted midlevel anon. I guess most folks here haven't gone through the days leading up to signing where all-nighters are common. You chit chat and eat stuff with your colleagues because you will be there all night anyway. Whether you have kids should make a difference, and I was never arguing for a full RTO if you read carefully. I don't take my job seriously, but the only things that keep me sane during the worst times in my practice area, M&A, are the pay and good colleagues.

In all honesty, I'd rather just be at home by 2 am and get some sleep, but during the craziest days leading up to signing in some deals, there's no choice. I've done this shit for over 4 years and sometimes there's just no choice other than not sleeping through the entire night. I've gone through those periods while working from home and while being with colleagues, and I prefer the latter.

One more point, what's wrong with being in the office two or three days a week? There can be more flexibility for people with children. I would hate having to be in the office for all 5 week days, but I also think it's ridiculous that offices are empty when the pandemic is not even a serious concern any more. The extremists here should learn to make compromises and live with other people. Look at the world from the other person's perspective.

No I won't. Because I go home at 6, even with RTO. If I have to stay up, I'll be at home.

ETA - I'm personally fine with 2-3 days 9 to 6 in the office with additional flexibility for various situations such as closings, childcare, etc. But we're not going back to the days of staying in the office all night. Anyone advocating for that is the extremists, not the ppl who want more flexibility.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a V20 5th year. I think it also depends on how much your practice area needs good camaraderie. For instance, in M&A, you work crazy long hours with little sleep and during those late nights, it's just much more tolerable if you are actually with your colleagues eating pizza, fried chicken or what have you, and talking about not only work, but also life. None of that is present if everyone works from home. I do like the flexibility of working from home, but think mandatory two or three days in the office should be fine at least for that office camaraderie.

Just stop. Idk if you're trolling, but if not, this is one of the worst arguments for WFH I've heard. There are some of us who have lives outside of work. The last thing I want after pulling an all-nighter to close a deal is to be forced into the office away from my wife and kids so you can sit in the conference room and eat fried chicken with your work friends. In a WFH world, you and your buddies can still eat all the fried chicken you want either in-office or at your house. Have at it.

That quoted midlevel anon. I guess most folks here haven't gone through the days leading up to signing where all-nighters are common. You chit chat and eat stuff with your colleagues because you will be there all night anyway. Whether you have kids should make a difference, and I was never arguing for a full RTO if you read carefully. I don't take my job seriously, but the only things that keep me sane during the worst times in my practice area, M&A, are the pay and good colleagues.

In all honesty, I'd rather just be at home by 2 am and get some sleep, but during the craziest days leading up to signing in some deals, there's no choice. I've done this shit for over 4 years and sometimes there's just no choice other than not sleeping through the entire night. I've gone through those periods while working from home and while being with colleagues, and I prefer the latter.

One more point, what's wrong with being in the office two or three days a week? There can be more flexibility for people with children. I would hate having to be in the office for all 5 week days, but I also think it's ridiculous that offices are empty when the pandemic is not even a serious concern any more. The extremists here should learn to make compromises and live with other people. Look at the world from the other person's perspective.

No I won't. Because I go home at 6, even with RTO. If I have to stay up, I'll be at home.

Before covid began in 2020, you had no choice. lol at thinking you can do whatever you want during the few days leading up to signing. It's different for each deal, but there were those crazy deals once or twice a year or so. Never liked them of course, but sometimes there's no choice.

You probably entered biglaw in 2020 or 2021 or never yet have gone through the worst times. Things happen, and while maintaining flexibility, it's better to make sure that at least on some days, associates will come in. If things are not so bad and you can go home by 3 am, that's all good. No fucking sane person in the world likes pulling all nighters for Christ's sake.