Summer Classes of 2022 Edition Forum

[Anonymous User]

I would also question whether choosing CSM or S&C over Cleary really is the smarter play here. I know a handful of classmates who turned down offers from V10 (S&C, STB, DPW) for places like Cleary and Debevoise because they don't want to sweat harder for the same pay and marginally better exit ops (if any).

Not sure about Cleary, but surprising to hear this about Debevoise because all of my friends describe it as a sweatshop.

I'm a Class of 2017. Really surprised that Cleary is now deemed a tier below firms like K&E and Latham by law students. Is it because of Vault? So ridiculous.

My perception for NY corporate (going off of Chambers and Vault rankings):

Wachtell >>> S&C, Cravath > Skadden, K&E, STB, DPW > PW, Cleary, Debevoise > Latham, Weil.

The only "true" divisions are Wachtell (and maybe S&C) from the rest. Arguing K&E or Cleary is like arguing UPenn or Northwestern. Somewhat arbitrary and ultimately meaningless.

This eternal TLS debate was settled in the AmLaw thread:

Premier League Table

1. Watchtell
2. Davis Polk
3. Simpson Thacher
4. Kirkland
5. Sullivan & Cromwell
6. Latham
7. Debevoise
8. Paul Weiss
9. Cahill
10. Ropes & Gray
11. Paul Hastings
12. Milbank
13. Weil
14. Cravath
15. Fenwick
16. Skadden
17. Fried Frank
18. Quinn Emmanuel
19. Gibson Dunn
20. Cleary
NP. Cooley
NP. Goodwin

[Anonymous User]

Crowell & Moring

DC

George Washington (2) 2Ls, (1) 1L
Georgetown (1) 2L (1) 1L
Virginia (1) 1L
American (1)
Stanford (1)
Howard(1)
Washington and Lee (1)
George Mason (1)

NY

Georgetown (1)
Cornell (1)

Los Angeles

Usc (1)
Ucla (1)
Loyola (1)

San Francisco

Mitchell Hamline (1)
Berkeley (1)
Ucla (1)

Orange County
UCI (2)
Ucla (1)

Chicago
Case Western (1)
Indiana (1)

Pretty interesting assortment.

[Anonymous User]

Was KE class breakdown posted and I missed it due to derail? Can you guys post breakdown.

Kirkland Chicago
Includes 2Ls + 1Ls

Northwestern (17) (13 2Ls / 4 1Ls)
University of Chicago (9)
Loyola Chicago (7)
Harvard (6)
Michigan (6)
Notre Dame (6)
WUSTL (5)
UIC (5)
UIUC (4)
UVA (3)
VANDERBILT (3)
MINNESOTA (3)
IOWA (3)
KENT (3)
GULC (2)
DePaul (2)
Columbia (1)
Duke (1)
University of Texas (1)
Indiana University (1)
USC (1)
Howard (1)
Boston College (1)
Ohio State (1)

Dang NDLS tying Michigan this year in Chi. When I was a summer at KE there was like one ND guy in Chicago and like 15 Michigan.

not for lack of offers, several folks just ended up going elsewhere. sidley was way more popular this year for whatever reason

[Anonymous User]

I would also question whether choosing CSM or S&C over Cleary really is the smarter play here. I know a handful of classmates who turned down offers from V10 (S&C, STB, DPW) for places like Cleary and Debevoise because they don't want to sweat harder for the same pay and marginally better exit ops (if any).

Not sure about Cleary, but surprising to hear this about Debevoise because all of my friends describe it as a sweatshop.

I'm a Class of 2017. Really surprised that Cleary is now deemed a tier below firms like K&E and Latham by law students. Is it because of Vault? So ridiculous.

My perception for NY corporate (going off of Chambers and Vault rankings):

Wachtell >>> S&C, Cravath > Skadden, K&E, STB, DPW > PW, Cleary, Debevoise > Latham, Weil.

The only "true" divisions are Wachtell (and maybe S&C) from the rest. Arguing K&E or Cleary is like arguing UPenn or Northwestern. Somewhat arbitrary and ultimately meaningless.

This eternal TLS debate was settled in the AmLaw thread:

Premier League Table

1. Watchtell
2. Davis Polk
3. Simpson Thacher
4. Kirkland
5. Sullivan & Cromwell
6. Latham
7. Debevoise
8. Paul Weiss
9. Cahill
10. Ropes & Gray
11. Paul Hastings
12. Milbank
13. Weil
14. Cravath
15. Fenwick
16. Skadden
17. Fried Frank
18. Quinn Emmanuel
19. Gibson Dunn
20. Cleary
NP. Cooley
NP. Goodwin

I don't understand why a rating scale would compare cooley/goodwin/fenwick to Gibson/Quinn to Wachtell. Seems like each group of firms is so different that sticking them on a single ranking doesn't give you anything of value.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Not everyone did an easy major at an easy undergrad. T6 students tend to have gone to stronger quality undergrads and often have done substantive majors. Further, the LSAT is a standardized test. Of course the average kid at Chicago is smarter and harder working than the average kid at a t50, which isn’t to say that lower T1 schools are not strong reputable schools.

Biglaw hires accordingly, knowing there isn’t actually much daylight between median uChicago versus top quarter uChicago. It’s not like TLS gunners have a special knowledge that median anywhere = median everywhere and that median = shit even at Harvard. Some people are just obsessed with grades and demeaning those with worse grades, since they have nothing else in their life to feel good about.

Judges, WLRK, top lit shops, academia etc. may demand top grades from a top school, but ultimately they do that because they can and because they particularly value academic credentials, versus e.g. doing PE M&A at Kirkland — where K&E also cares about your academic chops, but to a lesser extent than Kellogg or Merrick Garland or whoever does

There is a of course a fundamental different in being a Supreme Court clerk and doing PE deals at K&E. One really does require a very high level of raw intelligence, the other could be done by Pinky from Pinky and the Brain (though these days some of the K&E laterals make Pinky look like a sharp dude). This isn't a question of what you "value," its a question of having the minimum level of competence to do the job.

It absolutely is about what the decision-maker values. If a court’s reasoning process is too complicated for the average HLS student or Chicago student to comprehend, that reflects worse on the court than it does on those students. Decisions should be transparent, not impenetrable.

Also you don’t need SCOTUS-clerk grades to do the work of a scotus clerk. Certain conservatives, like the judge who shot down the mask mandate, clearly didn’t. Ketanji Brown was cum laude at HLS — which is what, top 40%? — and she’s literally a justice on the court. Sotomayor got no-offered at Paul, Weiss. Barrett went to Notre Dame. None of your arguments hold up in reality.

And Where exactly did you get the idea that anybody could do M&A at Kirkland? Have you ever tried it? Not simple to run these deals. Sounds like you haven’t a clue about real work.

[Anonymous User]

I would also question whether choosing CSM or S&C over Cleary really is the smarter play here. I know a handful of classmates who turned down offers from V10 (S&C, STB, DPW) for places like Cleary and Debevoise because they don't want to sweat harder for the same pay and marginally better exit ops (if any).

Not sure about Cleary, but surprising to hear this about Debevoise because all of my friends describe it as a sweatshop.

I'm a Class of 2017. Really surprised that Cleary is now deemed a tier below firms like K&E and Latham by law students. Is it because of Vault? So ridiculous.

My perception for NY corporate (going off of Chambers and Vault rankings):

Wachtell >>> S&C, Cravath > Skadden, K&E, STB, DPW > PW, Cleary, Debevoise > Latham, Weil.

The only "true" divisions are Wachtell (and maybe S&C) from the rest. Arguing K&E or Cleary is like arguing UPenn or Northwestern. Somewhat arbitrary and ultimately meaningless.

This eternal TLS debate was settled in the AmLaw thread:

Premier League Table

1. Watchtell
2. Davis Polk
3. Simpson Thacher
4. Kirkland
5. Sullivan & Cromwell
6. Latham
7. Debevoise
8. Paul Weiss
9. Cahill
10. Ropes & Gray
11. Paul Hastings
12. Milbank
13. Weil
14. Cravath
15. Fenwick
16. Skadden
17. Fried Frank
18. Quinn Emmanuel
19. Gibson Dunn
20. Cleary
NP. Cooley
NP. Goodwin

I don't understand why a rating scale would compare cooley/goodwin/fenwick to Gibson/Quinn to Wachtell. Seems like each group of firms is so different that sticking them on a single ranking doesn't give you anything of value.

Yeah this is clearly not the definitive list. For starters, it's NYC centric and leaves off other firms like Williams & Connolly that are absolutely high up on the preftige ladder. Regardless, I refuse to accept a ranking that puts Fenwick above Skadden or Cleary.

[Anonymous User]

.
Compared to firms who also heavily draw from their target schools they are. How many candidates do you think would pick Cleary over CSM/S&C/DPW. Top students go to wachtell/DC lit or clerk, good students go to a top ranked white shoe, and firms like cleary are left with a flock of median students at HLS/CLS/NYU who are indistinguishable from their T50 median peers.

Not sure where you are getting this low quality information from. Cleary mostly draws from above median even from CLS and NYU.

Why do you think HLS median students are indistinguishable from T50 median? Literally no biglaw firms agree with you. and given that Florida State or Indiana medians largely don’t really work in major market biglaw, what’s your frame of reference there?

Sounds like you’re overestimating the importance of grades and may be detached from reality. Raw intellectual horsepower + effort + common sense is what drives performance in my practice group. Sometimes top performers were CLS Kent or HLS magna, but most of the time they’re people who didn’t like law school as much as you probably did.

Another anon here. HLS median students are obviously distinguishable from T50 median. That being said, I can't comment anything about Cleary drawing above median folks from CLS and NYU. Do you have access to data?

CLS student here: Cleary's offer by honors (OBH) percentage hovers around 80-90% (excluding the P/F semester in 2020, when OBH numbers were wack for most firms and the number was 62%). I don't have the data for the Class of 2023 yet. OBH is not the best metric by any means, but CLS doesn't release GPA data so honors is what we end up relying on to make estimates.

I don't know how reliable the offer by honors percentage is because Cleary is free to make offers to honors students. The question is will those honor students accept Cleary's offer over CSM/S&C/DPW, and I think that's what the poster above was getting at.

Is this the same anon or are DPW associates just riding along with the subtle troll?

I would also question whether choosing CSM or S&C over Cleary really is the smarter play here. I know a handful of classmates who turned down offers from V10 (S&C, STB, DPW) for places like Cleary and Debevoise because they don't want to sweat harder for the same pay and marginally better exit ops (if any).

Is this the same anon or are STB associates just riding along with the subtle troll?

[Anonymous User]

I would also question whether choosing CSM or S&C over Cleary really is the smarter play here. I know a handful of classmates who turned down offers from V10 (S&C, STB, DPW) for places like Cleary and Debevoise because they don't want to sweat harder for the same pay and marginally better exit ops (if any).

Not sure about Cleary, but surprising to hear this about Debevoise because all of my friends describe it as a sweatshop.

I'm a Class of 2017. Really surprised that Cleary is now deemed a tier below firms like K&E and Latham by law students. Is it because of Vault? So ridiculous.

My perception for NY corporate (going off of Chambers and Vault rankings):

Wachtell >>> S&C, Cravath > Skadden, K&E, STB, DPW > PW, Cleary, Debevoise > Latham, Weil.

The only "true" divisions are Wachtell (and maybe S&C) from the rest. Arguing K&E or Cleary is like arguing UPenn or Northwestern. Somewhat arbitrary and ultimately meaningless.

This eternal TLS debate was settled in the AmLaw thread:

Premier League Table

1. Watchtell
2. Davis Polk
3. Simpson Thacher
4. Kirkland
5. Sullivan & Cromwell
6. Latham
7. Debevoise
8. Paul Weiss
9. Cahill
10. Ropes & Gray
11. Paul Hastings
12. Milbank
13. Weil
14. Cravath
15. Fenwick
16. Skadden
17. Fried Frank
18. Quinn Emmanuel
19. Gibson Dunn
20. Cleary
NP. Cooley
NP. Goodwin

I don't understand why a rating scale would compare cooley/goodwin/fenwick to Gibson/Quinn to Wachtell. Seems like each group of firms is so different that sticking them on a single ranking doesn't give you anything of value.

Yeah this is clearly not the definitive list. For starters, it's NYC centric and leaves off other firms like Williams & Connolly that are absolutely high up on the preftige ladder. Regardless, I refuse to accept a ranking that puts Fenwick above Skadden or Cleary.

In my world (SV), Fenwick >>>> Skadden/Cleary (imagine working for an east coast firm 0/10), but to each his own.

[Anonymous User]

Not sure about Cleary, but surprising to hear this about Debevoise because all of my friends describe it as a sweatshop.

I'm a Class of 2017. Really surprised that Cleary is now deemed a tier below firms like K&E and Latham by law students. Is it because of Vault? So ridiculous.

My perception for NY corporate (going off of Chambers and Vault rankings):

Wachtell >>> S&C, Cravath > Skadden, K&E, STB, DPW > PW, Cleary, Debevoise > Latham, Weil.

The only "true" divisions are Wachtell (and maybe S&C) from the rest. Arguing K&E or Cleary is like arguing UPenn or Northwestern. Somewhat arbitrary and ultimately meaningless.

This eternal TLS debate was settled in the AmLaw thread:

Premier League Table

1. Watchtell
2. Davis Polk
3. Simpson Thacher
4. Kirkland
5. Sullivan & Cromwell
6. Latham
7. Debevoise
8. Paul Weiss
9. Cahill
10. Ropes & Gray
11. Paul Hastings
12. Milbank
13. Weil
14. Cravath
15. Fenwick
16. Skadden
17. Fried Frank
18. Quinn Emmanuel
19. Gibson Dunn
20. Cleary
NP. Cooley
NP. Goodwin

I don't understand why a rating scale would compare cooley/goodwin/fenwick to Gibson/Quinn to Wachtell. Seems like each group of firms is so different that sticking them on a single ranking doesn't give you anything of value.

Yeah this is clearly not the definitive list. For starters, it's NYC centric and leaves off other firms like Williams & Connolly that are absolutely high up on the preftige ladder. Regardless, I refuse to accept a ranking that puts Fenwick above Skadden or Cleary.

In my world (SV), Fenwick >>>> Skadden/Cleary (imagine working for an east coast firm 0/10), but to each his own.

Growth in RPL and lawyers, or lack of it, was an important metric. Cleary, Skadden, and Cravath were all punished for that reason. Things move slowly in the legal world, but they do move, and the list makes a decent attempt at trying to predict the up and comers. That being said, Cleary, Skadden, and Cravath are the creme-de-la-creme and have been for decades.

[Anonymous User]

.
Compared to firms who also heavily draw from their target schools they are. How many candidates do you think would pick Cleary over CSM/S&C/DPW. Top students go to wachtell/DC lit or clerk, good students go to a top ranked white shoe, and firms like cleary are left with a flock of median students at HLS/CLS/NYU who are indistinguishable from their T50 median peers.

Not sure where you are getting this low quality information from. Cleary mostly draws from above median even from CLS and NYU.

Why do you think HLS median students are indistinguishable from T50 median? Literally no biglaw firms agree with you. and given that Florida State or Indiana medians largely don’t really work in major market biglaw, what’s your frame of reference there?

Sounds like you’re overestimating the importance of grades and may be detached from reality. Raw intellectual horsepower + effort + common sense is what drives performance in my practice group. Sometimes top performers were CLS Kent or HLS magna, but most of the time they’re people who didn’t like law school as much as you probably did.

Another anon here. HLS median students are obviously distinguishable from T50 median. That being said, I can't comment anything about Cleary drawing above median folks from CLS and NYU. Do you have access to data?

CLS student here: Cleary's offer by honors (OBH) percentage hovers around 80-90% (excluding the P/F semester in 2020, when OBH numbers were wack for most firms and the number was 62%). I don't have the data for the Class of 2023 yet. OBH is not the best metric by any means, but CLS doesn't release GPA data so honors is what we end up relying on to make estimates.

I don't know how reliable the offer by honors percentage is because Cleary is free to make offers to honors students. The question is will those honor students accept Cleary's offer over CSM/S&C/DPW, and I think that's what the poster above was getting at.

Is this the same anon or are DPW associates just riding along with the subtle troll?

I would also question whether choosing CSM or S&C over Cleary really is the smarter play here. I know a handful of classmates who turned down offers from V10 (S&C, STB, DPW) for places like Cleary and Debevoise because they don't want to sweat harder for the same pay and marginally better exit ops (if any).

Is this the same anon or are STB associates just riding along with the subtle troll?

Why am I being accused of trolling for knowing people who turned down offers from STB and DPW? Try again buddy.

[Anonymous User]

I would also question whether choosing CSM or S&C over Cleary really is the smarter play here. I know a handful of classmates who turned down offers from V10 (S&C, STB, DPW) for places like Cleary and Debevoise because they don't want to sweat harder for the same pay and marginally better exit ops (if any).

Not sure about Cleary, but surprising to hear this about Debevoise because all of my friends describe it as a sweatshop.

I'm a Class of 2017. Really surprised that Cleary is now deemed a tier below firms like K&E and Latham by law students. Is it because of Vault? So ridiculous.

My perception for NY corporate (going off of Chambers and Vault rankings):

Wachtell >>> S&C, Cravath > Skadden, K&E, STB, DPW > PW, Cleary, Debevoise > Latham, Weil.

The only "true" divisions are Wachtell (and maybe S&C) from the rest. Arguing K&E or Cleary is like arguing UPenn or Northwestern. Somewhat arbitrary and ultimately meaningless.

First time I've ever seen someone indicate that S&C > CSM, is that subtle S&C trolling or is there any merit to that point?

I thought the consensus was that Cravath, S&C and DPW were peers

[Anonymous User]

I would also question whether choosing CSM or S&C over Cleary really is the smarter play here. I know a handful of classmates who turned down offers from V10 (S&C, STB, DPW) for places like Cleary and Debevoise because they don't want to sweat harder for the same pay and marginally better exit ops (if any).

Not sure about Cleary, but surprising to hear this about Debevoise because all of my friends describe it as a sweatshop.

I'm a Class of 2017. Really surprised that Cleary is now deemed a tier below firms like K&E and Latham by law students. Is it because of Vault? So ridiculous.

My perception for NY corporate (going off of Chambers and Vault rankings):

Wachtell >>> S&C, Cravath > Skadden, K&E, STB, DPW > PW, Cleary, Debevoise > Latham, Weil.

The only "true" divisions are Wachtell (and maybe S&C) from the rest. Arguing K&E or Cleary is like arguing UPenn or Northwestern. Somewhat arbitrary and ultimately meaningless.

First time I've ever seen someone indicate that S&C > CSM, is that subtle S&C trolling or is there any merit to that point?

I thought the consensus was that Cravath, S&C and DPW were peers

I think they're pretty close (hence the same tier). But my sense is that S&C has a slight edge in preftige over CSM based on TLS threads and conversations. I also generally think CSM is overhyped as a firm that used to, but no longer, set the market scale. Again, these are nonconsequential differences.

I'm pretty confident, however, that average GPAs for offerees at S&C/CSM are higher than those at DPW. Maybe DPW is on the rise given their recent raises, but historically I'm pretty sure DPW was considered peers with STB more than S&C/CSM.

[Anonymous User]

I would also question whether choosing CSM or S&C over Cleary really is the smarter play here. I know a handful of classmates who turned down offers from V10 (S&C, STB, DPW) for places like Cleary and Debevoise because they don't want to sweat harder for the same pay and marginally better exit ops (if any).

Not sure about Cleary, but surprising to hear this about Debevoise because all of my friends describe it as a sweatshop.

I'm a Class of 2017. Really surprised that Cleary is now deemed a tier below firms like K&E and Latham by law students. Is it because of Vault? So ridiculous.

My perception for NY corporate (going off of Chambers and Vault rankings):

Wachtell >>> S&C, Cravath > Skadden, K&E, STB, DPW > PW, Cleary, Debevoise > Latham, Weil.

The only "true" divisions are Wachtell (and maybe S&C) from the rest. Arguing K&E or Cleary is like arguing UPenn or Northwestern. Somewhat arbitrary and ultimately meaningless.

First time I've ever seen someone indicate that S&C > CSM, is that subtle S&C trolling or is there any merit to that point?

I thought the consensus was that Cravath, S&C and DPW were peers

I think they're pretty close (hence the same tier). But my sense is that S&C has a slight edge in preftige over CSM based on TLS threads and conversations. I also generally think CSM is overhyped as a firm that used to, but no longer, set the market scale. Again, these are nonconsequential differences.

I'm pretty confident, however, that average GPAs for offerees at S&C/CSM are higher than those at DPW. Maybe DPW is on the rise given their recent raises, but historically I'm pretty sure DPW was considered peers with STB more than S&C/CSM.

Vault and law student GPAs are lagging indicators of firm prestige and success because associates and law students are the last to know when the market changes.

[Anonymous User]

Not sure where you are getting this low quality information from. Cleary mostly draws from above median even from CLS and NYU.

Why do you think HLS median students are indistinguishable from T50 median? Literally no biglaw firms agree with you. and given that Florida State or Indiana medians largely don’t really work in major market biglaw, what’s your frame of reference there?

Sounds like you’re overestimating the importance of grades and may be detached from reality. Raw intellectual horsepower + effort + common sense is what drives performance in my practice group. Sometimes top performers were CLS Kent or HLS magna, but most of the time they’re people who didn’t like law school as much as you probably did.

Another anon here. HLS median students are obviously distinguishable from T50 median. That being said, I can't comment anything about Cleary drawing above median folks from CLS and NYU. Do you have access to data?

CLS student here: Cleary's offer by honors (OBH) percentage hovers around 80-90% (excluding the P/F semester in 2020, when OBH numbers were wack for most firms and the number was 62%). I don't have the data for the Class of 2023 yet. OBH is not the best metric by any means, but CLS doesn't release GPA data so honors is what we end up relying on to make estimates.

I don't know how reliable the offer by honors percentage is because Cleary is free to make offers to honors students. The question is will those honor students accept Cleary's offer over CSM/S&C/DPW, and I think that's what the poster above was getting at.

Is this the same anon or are DPW associates just riding along with the subtle troll?

I would also question whether choosing CSM or S&C over Cleary really is the smarter play here. I know a handful of classmates who turned down offers from V10 (S&C, STB, DPW) for places like Cleary and Debevoise because they don't want to sweat harder for the same pay and marginally better exit ops (if any).

Is this the same anon or are STB associates just riding along with the subtle troll?

Why am I being accused of trolling for knowing people who turned down offers from STB and DPW? Try again buddy.

I thought you were the one against bundling CSM/S&C and DPW together, but then you do exactly that, replacing CSM with STB.

[Anonymous User]

Another anon here. HLS median students are obviously distinguishable from T50 median. That being said, I can't comment anything about Cleary drawing above median folks from CLS and NYU. Do you have access to data?

CLS student here: Cleary's offer by honors (OBH) percentage hovers around 80-90% (excluding the P/F semester in 2020, when OBH numbers were wack for most firms and the number was 62%). I don't have the data for the Class of 2023 yet. OBH is not the best metric by any means, but CLS doesn't release GPA data so honors is what we end up relying on to make estimates.

I don't know how reliable the offer by honors percentage is because Cleary is free to make offers to honors students. The question is will those honor students accept Cleary's offer over CSM/S&C/DPW, and I think that's what the poster above was getting at.

Is this the same anon or are DPW associates just riding along with the subtle troll?

I would also question whether choosing CSM or S&C over Cleary really is the smarter play here. I know a handful of classmates who turned down offers from V10 (S&C, STB, DPW) for places like Cleary and Debevoise because they don't want to sweat harder for the same pay and marginally better exit ops (if any).

Is this the same anon or are STB associates just riding along with the subtle troll?

Why am I being accused of trolling for knowing people who turned down offers from STB and DPW? Try again buddy.

I thought you were the one against bundling CSM/S&C and DPW together, but then you do exactly that, replacing CSM with STB.

But I'm talking about classmates I knew who turned down offers from those firms. I don't personally know anyone who turned down CSM, although I'm sure it happened. You, on the other hand, were speaking broadly with the presumption that someone with offers from those firms would never turn them down for a firm like Cleary or Debevoise. Which I thought was funny, because not only do people turn down S&C for such firms, but DPW is much closer as a peer to Cleary/Debevoise than it is to S&C/CSM.

[Anonymous User]

I would also question whether choosing CSM or S&C over Cleary really is the smarter play here. I know a handful of classmates who turned down offers from V10 (S&C, STB, DPW) for places like Cleary and Debevoise because they don't want to sweat harder for the same pay and marginally better exit ops (if any).

Not sure about Cleary, but surprising to hear this about Debevoise because all of my friends describe it as a sweatshop.

I'm a Class of 2017. Really surprised that Cleary is now deemed a tier below firms like K&E and Latham by law students. Is it because of Vault? So ridiculous.

My perception for NY corporate (going off of Chambers and Vault rankings):

Wachtell >>> S&C, Cravath > Skadden, K&E, STB, DPW > PW, Cleary, Debevoise > Latham, Weil.

The only "true" divisions are Wachtell (and maybe S&C) from the rest. Arguing K&E or Cleary is like arguing UPenn or Northwestern. Somewhat arbitrary and ultimately meaningless.

First time I've ever seen someone indicate that S&C > CSM, is that subtle S&C trolling or is there any merit to that point?

I thought the consensus was that Cravath, S&C and DPW were peers

I think they're pretty close (hence the same tier). But my sense is that S&C has a slight edge in preftige over CSM based on TLS threads and conversations. I also generally think CSM is overhyped as a firm that used to, but no longer, set the market scale. Again, these are nonconsequential differences.

I'm pretty confident, however, that average GPAs for offerees at S&C/CSM are higher than those at DPW. Maybe DPW is on the rise given their recent raises, but historically I'm pretty sure DPW was considered peers with STB more than S&C/CSM.

Vault and law student GPAs are lagging indicators of firm prestige and success because associates and law students are the last to know when the market changes.

Sure, but I would argue that rankings lag by design. Similar to the concept of rolling averages. Historical data is used to counter any short-lived fluctuations.

[Anonymous User]

CLS student here: Cleary's offer by honors (OBH) percentage hovers around 80-90% (excluding the P/F semester in 2020, when OBH numbers were wack for most firms and the number was 62%). I don't have the data for the Class of 2023 yet. OBH is not the best metric by any means, but CLS doesn't release GPA data so honors is what we end up relying on to make estimates.

I don't know how reliable the offer by honors percentage is because Cleary is free to make offers to honors students. The question is will those honor students accept Cleary's offer over CSM/S&C/DPW, and I think that's what the poster above was getting at.

Is this the same anon or are DPW associates just riding along with the subtle troll?

I would also question whether choosing CSM or S&C over Cleary really is the smarter play here. I know a handful of classmates who turned down offers from V10 (S&C, STB, DPW) for places like Cleary and Debevoise because they don't want to sweat harder for the same pay and marginally better exit ops (if any).

Is this the same anon or are STB associates just riding along with the subtle troll?

Why am I being accused of trolling for knowing people who turned down offers from STB and DPW? Try again buddy.

I thought you were the one against bundling CSM/S&C and DPW together, but then you do exactly that, replacing CSM with STB.

But I'm talking about classmates I knew who turned down offers from those firms. I don't personally know anyone who turned down CSM, although I'm sure it happened. You, on the other hand, were speaking broadly with the presumption that someone with offers from those firms would never turn them down for a firm like Cleary or Debevoise. Which I thought was funny, because not only do people turn down S&C for such firms, but DPW is much closer as a peer to Cleary/Debevoise than it is to S&C/CSM.

I didn't say "never", but I do stand by my previous comment in the sense that they do not happen that very often. And my point was on how offer by honors percentage metric is a metric that is less reliable than acceptance by honors percentage more generally because as you are well aware, DPW/STB can make offers to honors students all they want, but whether the students choose them is another question

[Anonymous User]

I would also question whether choosing CSM or S&C over Cleary really is the smarter play here. I know a handful of classmates who turned down offers from V10 (S&C, STB, DPW) for places like Cleary and Debevoise because they don't want to sweat harder for the same pay and marginally better exit ops (if any).

Not sure about Cleary, but surprising to hear this about Debevoise because all of my friends describe it as a sweatshop.

I'm a Class of 2017. Really surprised that Cleary is now deemed a tier below firms like K&E and Latham by law students. Is it because of Vault? So ridiculous.

My perception for NY corporate (going off of Chambers and Vault rankings):

Wachtell >>> S&C, Cravath > Skadden, K&E, STB, DPW, > PW, Cleary, Debevoise > Skadden, STB > K&E, Latham, Weil.

The only "true" divisions are Wachtell (and maybe S&C) from the rest. Arguing K&E or Cleary is like arguing UPenn or Northwestern. Somewhat arbitrary and ultimately meaningless.

This wrong. Fixed above.

boomer or ny simp or troll

[Anonymous User]

I would also question whether choosing CSM or S&C over Cleary really is the smarter play here. I know a handful of classmates who turned down offers from V10 (S&C, STB, DPW) for places like Cleary and Debevoise because they don't want to sweat harder for the same pay and marginally better exit ops (if any).

Not sure about Cleary, but surprising to hear this about Debevoise because all of my friends describe it as a sweatshop.

I'm a Class of 2017. Really surprised that Cleary is now deemed a tier below firms like K&E and Latham by law students. Is it because of Vault? So ridiculous.

My perception for NY corporate (going off of Chambers and Vault rankings):

Wachtell >>> S&C, Cravath > Skadden, K&E, STB, DPW > PW, Cleary, Debevoise > Latham, Weil.

The only "true" divisions are Wachtell (and maybe S&C) from the rest. Arguing K&E or Cleary is like arguing UPenn or Northwestern. Somewhat arbitrary and ultimately meaningless.

This sounds about right except I don't think there is any difference between the last two divisions.

[Anonymous User]

.
Compared to firms who also heavily draw from their target schools they are. How many candidates do you think would pick Cleary over CSM/S&C/DPW. Top students go to wachtell/DC lit or clerk, good students go to a top ranked white shoe, and firms like cleary are left with a flock of median students at HLS/CLS/NYU who are indistinguishable from their T50 median peers.

Not sure where you are getting this low quality information from. Cleary mostly draws from above median even from CLS and NYU.

Why do you think HLS median students are indistinguishable from T50 median? Literally no biglaw firms agree with you. and given that Florida State or Indiana medians largely don’t really work in major market biglaw, what’s your frame of reference there?

Sounds like you’re overestimating the importance of grades and may be detached from reality. Raw intellectual horsepower + effort + common sense is what drives performance in my practice group. Sometimes top performers were CLS Kent or HLS magna, but most of the time they’re people who didn’t like law school as much as you probably did.

Another anon here. HLS median students are obviously distinguishable from T50 median. That being said, I can't comment anything about Cleary drawing above median folks from CLS and NYU. Do you have access to data?

Because all number driven schools admit people based on ugpa+lsat only and they don't mean shit. Is an ASU 4.0 dance major HLS student smarter than a 3.3 MIT physics major?

As an HLS grad, I confirm there most likely isn't anyone at HLS that majored in dance at a state university. Never seen anybody similar. Most people majored in econ, math, finance, government, philosophy, etc. Even if there is such an individual, to the extent such person had the right credentials to get admitted to HLS, we cannot know for sure that the MIT physics major is necessarily smarter either.

What credentials? college GPA or LSAT as if that's not the only thing HLS cares about? As an HLS student who studied quant finance at a top college, HLS students are at least a notch or two dumber overall than my college classmates. Some of the most mediocre students from my hometown in Ohio make it into HLS. This is not to say that HLS doesn't have some smart people at the top but as a whole student body it is an insult to MIT and I hope you are trolling to compare HLS to MIT physics.

[Anonymous User]

I would also question whether choosing CSM or S&C over Cleary really is the smarter play here. I know a handful of classmates who turned down offers from V10 (S&C, STB, DPW) for places like Cleary and Debevoise because they don't want to sweat harder for the same pay and marginally better exit ops (if any).

Not sure about Cleary, but surprising to hear this about Debevoise because all of my friends describe it as a sweatshop.

I'm a Class of 2017. Really surprised that Cleary is now deemed a tier below firms like K&E and Latham by law students. Is it because of Vault? So ridiculous.

What's so ridiculous? Law firms strength is 100% determined by their financials because they exist to make money and to make money only. A firm like Cleary that can't compete on profitability is just bad as a firm. Simple as that. If you think where median NYU students want to work for and quit in 2 years matters more than how much cash a firm brings in each year I don't know what you have been doing for the past 5 years.

If we are talking about associates quality that's a different question but again that doesn't matter as we are doing things that a high schooler can do anyways.

[Anonymous User]

I would also question whether choosing CSM or S&C over Cleary really is the smarter play here. I know a handful of classmates who turned down offers from V10 (S&C, STB, DPW) for places like Cleary and Debevoise because they don't want to sweat harder for the same pay and marginally better exit ops (if any).

Not sure about Cleary, but surprising to hear this about Debevoise because all of my friends describe it as a sweatshop.

I'm a Class of 2017. Really surprised that Cleary is now deemed a tier below firms like K&E and Latham by law students. Is it because of Vault? So ridiculous.

What's so ridiculous? Law firms strength is 100% determined by their financials because they exist to make money and to make money only. A firm like Cleary that can't compete on profitability is just bad as a firm. Simple as that. If you think where median NYU students want to work for and quit in 2 years matters more than how much cash a firm brings in each year I don't know what you have been doing for the past 5 years.

If we are talking about associates quality that's a different question but again that doesn't matter as we are doing things that a high schooler can do anyways.

Idiotic K&E bro says what? So many things wrong with this.

Firms may be geared toward making money but that never has, and never will align perfectly with prestige or rankings. Cadwalolader and K&S continue to have much higher PPP than their peer firms, but nobody thinks they are on par with other more prestigious firms. Quibble with whether you care about prestige (that's fine, many don't), but it does matter to some degree. Williams & Connolly is just one example. And don't forget that the median NYU student will be a client someday - their perception at OCI locks in what they think about firms for years to come. Outsized profits are unlikely to sway that view, especially if they know how those profits came about.

Which brings me to my next point: firms like K&E massively inflate their PPEP with large NEP ranks and sweatshop mentalities. K&E has $600k+ more RPL, which I'm sure has nothing to do with higher billing rates (roughly commensurate with value in the market/preftige) and everything to do with longer hours and high-billing NEPs pushing the average up. There are other "cash is king" metrics that are also just as, if not more important than PPP, gross revenue, and total profits. Look no further than plaintiff-side firms with partners raking in cash from contingency fee arrangements to see that point.

I'm not saying K&E's profits aren't impressive compared to Cleary. And I'm not saying K&E is a bad firm. I'm just saying that big PPP numbers for a few years does not don the crown of top preftige. Perceptions matter, and you can't just point to a few financial data points to refute that.

[Anonymous User]

Came to check out the summer classes and hoo boy has this been derailed. You kids will learn one day that none of this matters. <insert S&C copypasta>

[Anonymous User]

I would also question whether choosing CSM or S&C over Cleary really is the smarter play here. I know a handful of classmates who turned down offers from V10 (S&C, STB, DPW) for places like Cleary and Debevoise because they don't want to sweat harder for the same pay and marginally better exit ops (if any).

Not sure about Cleary, but surprising to hear this about Debevoise because all of my friends describe it as a sweatshop.

I'm a Class of 2017. Really surprised that Cleary is now deemed a tier below firms like K&E and Latham by law students. Is it because of Vault? So ridiculous.

What's so ridiculous? Law firms strength is 100% determined by their financials because they exist to make money and to make money only. A firm like Cleary that can't compete on profitability is just bad as a firm. Simple as that. If you think where median NYU students want to work for and quit in 2 years matters more than how much cash a firm brings in each year I don't know what you have been doing for the past 5 years.

If we are talking about associates quality that's a different question but again that doesn't matter as we are doing things that a high schooler can do anyways.

Idiotic K&E bro says what? So many things wrong with this.

Firms may be geared toward making money but that never has, and never will align perfectly with prestige or rankings. Cadwalolader and K&S continue to have much higher PPP than their peer firms, but nobody thinks they are on par with other more prestigious firms. Quibble with whether you care about prestige (that's fine, many don't), but it does matter to some degree. Williams & Connolly is just one example. And don't forget that the median NYU student will be a client someday - their perception at OCI locks in what they think about firms for years to come. Outsized profits are unlikely to sway that view, especially if they know how those profits came about.

Which brings me to my next point: firms like K&E massively inflate their PPEP with large NEP ranks and sweatshop mentalities. K&E has $600k+ more RPL, which I'm sure has nothing to do with higher billing rates (roughly commensurate with value in the market/preftige) and everything to do with longer hours and high-billing NEPs pushing the average up. There are other "cash is king" metrics that are also just as, if not more important than PPP, gross revenue, and total profits. Look no further than plaintiff-side firms with partners raking in cash from contingency fee arrangements to see that point.

I'm not saying K&E's profits aren't impressive compared to Cleary. And I'm not saying K&E is a bad firm. I'm just saying that big PPP numbers for a few years does not don the crown of top preftige. Perceptions matter, and you can't just point to a few financial data points to refute that.

Sorry not from K&E but this prestige talk is just pathetic really. Nobody outside law knows a thing about law firm prestige. If your median NYU client's perception really matters I am surprised why Cleary has been performing so badly. They have only recently become popular among NYU kids, perhaps?

[Anonymous User]

I would also question whether choosing CSM or S&C over Cleary really is the smarter play here. I know a handful of classmates who turned down offers from V10 (S&C, STB, DPW) for places like Cleary and Debevoise because they don't want to sweat harder for the same pay and marginally better exit ops (if any).

Not sure about Cleary, but surprising to hear this about Debevoise because all of my friends describe it as a sweatshop.

I'm a Class of 2017. Really surprised that Cleary is now deemed a tier below firms like K&E and Latham by law students. Is it because of Vault? So ridiculous.

What's so ridiculous? Law firms strength is 100% determined by their financials because they exist to make money and to make money only. A firm like Cleary that can't compete on profitability is just bad as a firm. Simple as that. If you think where median NYU students want to work for and quit in 2 years matters more than how much cash a firm brings in each year I don't know what you have been doing for the past 5 years.

If we are talking about associates quality that's a different question but again that doesn't matter as we are doing things that a high schooler can do anyways.

Idiotic K&E bro says what? So many things wrong with this.

Firms may be geared toward making money but that never has, and never will align perfectly with prestige or rankings. Cadwalolader and K&S continue to have much higher PPP than their peer firms, but nobody thinks they are on par with other more prestigious firms. Quibble with whether you care about prestige (that's fine, many don't), but it does matter to some degree. Williams & Connolly is just one example. And don't forget that the median NYU student will be a client someday - their perception at OCI locks in what they think about firms for years to come. Outsized profits are unlikely to sway that view, especially if they know how those profits came about.

Which brings me to my next point: firms like K&E massively inflate their PPEP with large NEP ranks and sweatshop mentalities. K&E has $600k+ more RPL, which I'm sure has nothing to do with higher billing rates (roughly commensurate with value in the market/preftige) and everything to do with longer hours and high-billing NEPs pushing the average up. There are other "cash is king" metrics that are also just as, if not more important than PPP, gross revenue, and total profits. Look no further than plaintiff-side firms with partners raking in cash from contingency fee arrangements to see that point.

I'm not saying K&E's profits aren't impressive compared to Cleary. And I'm not saying K&E is a bad firm. I'm just saying that big PPP numbers for a few years does not don the crown of top preftige. Perceptions matter, and you can't just point to a few financial data points to refute that.

Bro how did you pass the LSAT? His point is cash is the only relevant metrics and your counter is that cleary has more prestige?

Or if you are trying to say that prestige matters, at least try to make an argument why it does... You can't just say that it does because you think it does...