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Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 03, 2022 4:01 pm

It makes sense why people in secondary markets would choose Jones Day in secondary markets, but what are the reasons why someone would choose Jones Day over other comparable firms in New York?

I found a few T14 lawyers at Jones Day New York's office, and these associates probably could have picked another firm in New York that wouldn't adhere to the blackbox compensation system.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 03, 2022 4:01 pm

It makes sense why people in secondary markets would choose Jones Day in secondary markets, but what are the reasons why someone would choose Jones Day over other comparable firms in New York?

I found a few T14 lawyers at Jones Day New York's office, and these associates probably could have picked another firm in New York that wouldn't adhere to the blackbox compensation system.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 03, 2022 4:01 pm

It makes sense why people in secondary markets would choose Jones Day in secondary markets, but what are the reasons why someone would choose Jones Day over other comparable firms in New York?

I found a few T14 lawyers at Jones Day New York's office, and these associates probably could have picked another firm in New York that wouldn't adhere to the blackbox compensation system.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 03, 2022 7:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 03, 2022 4:01 pm

It makes sense why people in secondary markets would choose Jones Day in secondary markets, but what are the reasons why someone would choose Jones Day over other comparable firms in New York?

I found a few T14 lawyers at Jones Day New York's office, and these associates probably could have picked another firm in New York that wouldn't adhere to the blackbox compensation system.

I may know one of those T14 lawyers, went to high school with him. He was very smart and we were friends as kids, but as we grew up he progressively became a douchey, clout-chasing, ego-driven, would-be-surprised-if-he-hasn't-invested-in-crypto kind of guy. Based on what I know about Jones Day, I think he would legitimately be attracted to the culture there, although I'm unsure if he's a conservative or not (if he was in FedSoc or things of the like, it'd just be a networking thing for him I think).

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 03, 2022 4:01 pm

It makes sense why people in secondary markets would choose Jones Day in secondary markets, but what are the reasons why someone would choose Jones Day over other comparable firms in New York?

I found a few T14 lawyers at Jones Day New York's office, and these associates probably could have picked another firm in New York that wouldn't adhere to the blackbox compensation system.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 03, 2022 4:01 pm

It makes sense why people in secondary markets would choose Jones Day in secondary markets, but what are the reasons why someone would choose Jones Day over other comparable firms in New York?

I found a few T14 lawyers at Jones Day New York's office, and these associates probably could have picked another firm in New York that wouldn't adhere to the blackbox compensation system.

Jones Day hires from the bottom of the class at NYU. It may be the best that most can do.

Nevertheless, the Brookfield Place location is unbeatable. Long walks along the waterfront every day!

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 03, 2022 4:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 03, 2022 4:01 pm

It makes sense why people in secondary markets would choose Jones Day in secondary markets, but what are the reasons why someone would choose Jones Day over other comparable firms in New York?

I found a few T14 lawyers at Jones Day New York's office, and these associates probably could have picked another firm in New York that wouldn't adhere to the blackbox compensation system.

I would think the big draw is that this is a conservative, pro Donald-Trump environment. If you are a hard line social conservative, gotta think NY biglaw feels overwhelmingly liberal and pretty miserable. Probably worth a significant $$$ amount to be comfortable being open about your political views. Also, JD is a good stepping stone into a GOP administration.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 03, 2022 4:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 03, 2022 4:01 pm

It makes sense why people in secondary markets would choose Jones Day in secondary markets, but what are the reasons why someone would choose Jones Day over other comparable firms in New York?

I found a few T14 lawyers at Jones Day New York's office, and these associates probably could have picked another firm in New York that wouldn't adhere to the blackbox compensation system.

I would think the big draw is that this is a conservative, pro Donald-Trump environment. If you are a hard line social conservative, gotta think NY biglaw feels overwhelmingly liberal and pretty miserable. Probably worth a significant $$$ amount to be comfortable being open about your political views. Also, JD is a good stepping stone into a GOP administration.

There was definitely a revolving door with the Trump Admin & Jones Day DC, but is this really possible for Jones Day NY? On the margins, wouldn't a conservative NY V10 lawyer have a better shot at a GOP administration over a JD-NY lawyer?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:25 pm

Jones Day NY is not particularly conservative afaik, so the theories that people choose it because it’s conservative seem very dubious. It’s not unusual for an office to have a DC/appellate practice that’s not reflective of the firm as a whole—nobody says GDC LA is conservative because GDC Dallas and DC are major destinations for Fed Soc gunners. PW, S&C, and (especially) K&E also have notably conservative DC appeals groups.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:19 pm

This is literally the exact opposite of JD's culture. JD is conservative (both politically and culturally) and it screens for cooperativeness, humility, and respect. Just look at how the firm is set up: decisions are top-down, clients are held collectively (not by rainmakers), pay is confidential, media contacts are discouraged, entrepreneurship is viewed skeptically, and self-aggrandizement is a major faux pas. A crypto bro would fit in better at a cutthroat and innovative firm like K&E.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 04, 2022 8:06 am

This is not specific to NYC, but I do have a few thoughts based from what I've heard from some DC JD associates.

First, though it would shock the conscience of some here, there are some who are not pure profit maximizers. In that sense, they may be willing forgo some pay for something else - be it culture (Fed Soc or otherwise), a particular practice group, or anything else listed below. I've heard at least one JD associate say we're all overcompensated and fixating on a few thousand dollars or massive bonuses in the height of the pandemic is petty, undeserved, and unbecoming. Maybe it's a justification for receiving less comp.

Second, as corollary, I think either JD didn't underpay as much in the past, or their underpayments for more senior associates have become more public of late. A few people I know there weren't particularly upset with their comp until the more recent salary/bonus wars. They also had serious midlevel retention issues (many felt duped by black box) before the pandemic made that a thing everywhere, likely due to unpublished compression.

Third, apart from a few relatively selective NYC firms, most other firms have hard hours requirements somewhere between 1900-2000. For someone who can't land one of those firms, JD poses an alternative where you could theoretically scoot by with lower hours for years and still make some good money (even if slightly less than you would make elsewhere).

Fourth, JD does beat market for some hardworking associates. My guess is that more people think ex ante that they'll fall into this category, especially given my next point.

Fifth, JD often times hires a good deal of scrappy non-T14 attorneys at the top of their class. I think JD recruits them harder than the other NYC firms, which are more focused on T14 and think the non-T14 students should be grateful for their offer.

Sixth, for mathematically illiterate law students, the idea of getting paid a higher salary without a bonus sounds attractive, especially if they don't realize they end up undercompensated in the end.

Seventh, for law students who know nothing of the world, the idea of NLG (no practice group commitment for 1 year) probably sounds pretty attractive. We can quibble about whether it's a good thing or not (just like CSM's system), but it's bound to catch the eye of at least a few law students.

Eight, this may be less true now as the Lathams and K&E's of the world continue to grow, but JD's massive footprint combined with the "one firm" policy is probably another selling point. They have work in literally every practice area imaginable in almost any city in the world. Compensation aside, I'd prefer JD to other shops like DLA, NRF, K&L, GT, etc. Maybe even MLB if I'm being honest. J&D is far better ranked than these firms, which is probably another selling point (again, quibble whether that matters).

Ninth, partnership prospects, etc. as others have noted.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 04, 2022 8:06 am

This is not specific to NYC, but I do have a few thoughts based from what I've heard from some DC JD associates.

First, though it would shock the conscience of some here, there are some who are not pure profit maximizers. In that sense, they may be willing forgo some pay for something else - be it culture (Fed Soc or otherwise), a particular practice group, or anything else listed below. I've heard at least one JD associate say we're all overcompensated and fixating on a few thousand dollars or massive bonuses in the height of the pandemic is petty, undeserved, and unbecoming. Maybe it's a justification for receiving less comp.

Second, as corollary, I think either JD didn't underpay as much in the past, or their underpayments for more senior associates have become more public of late. A few people I know there weren't particularly upset with their comp until the more recent salary/bonus wars. They also had serious midlevel retention issues (many felt duped by black box) before the pandemic made that a thing everywhere, likely due to unpublished compression.

Third, apart from a few relatively selective NYC firms, most other firms have hard hours requirements somewhere between 1900-2000. For someone who can't land one of those firms, JD poses an alternative where you could theoretically scoot by with lower hours for years and still make some good money (even if slightly less than you would make elsewhere).

Fourth, JD does beat market for some hardworking associates. My guess is that more people think ex ante that they'll fall into this category, especially given my next point.

Fifth, JD often times hires a good deal of scrappy non-T14 attorneys at the top of their class. I think JD recruits them harder than the other NYC firms, which are more focused on T14 and think the non-T14 students should be grateful for their offer.

Sixth, for mathematically illiterate law students, the idea of getting paid a higher salary without a bonus sounds attractive, especially if they don't realize they end up undercompensated in the end.

Seventh, for law students who know nothing of the world, the idea of NLG (no practice group commitment for 1 year) probably sounds pretty attractive. We can quibble about whether it's a good thing or not (just like CSM's system), but it's bound to catch the eye of at least a few law students.

Eight, this may be less true now as the Lathams and K&E's of the world continue to grow, but JD's massive footprint combined with the "one firm" policy is probably another selling point. They have work in literally every practice area imaginable in almost any city in the world. Compensation aside, I'd prefer JD to other shops like DLA, NRF, K&L, GT, etc. Maybe even MLB if I'm being honest. J&D is far better ranked than these firms, which is probably another selling point (again, quibble whether that matters).

Ninth, partnership prospects, etc. as others have noted.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:23 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 04, 2022 8:06 am

This is not specific to NYC, but I do have a few thoughts based from what I've heard from some DC JD associates.

First, though it would shock the conscience of some here, there are some who are not pure profit maximizers. In that sense, they may be willing forgo some pay for something else - be it culture (Fed Soc or otherwise), a particular practice group, or anything else listed below. I've heard at least one JD associate say we're all overcompensated and fixating on a few thousand dollars or massive bonuses in the height of the pandemic is petty, undeserved, and unbecoming. Maybe it's a justification for receiving less comp.

Second, as corollary, I think either JD didn't underpay as much in the past, or their underpayments for more senior associates have become more public of late. A few people I know there weren't particularly upset with their comp until the more recent salary/bonus wars. They also had serious midlevel retention issues (many felt duped by black box) before the pandemic made that a thing everywhere, likely due to unpublished compression.

Third, apart from a few relatively selective NYC firms, most other firms have hard hours requirements somewhere between 1900-2000. For someone who can't land one of those firms, JD poses an alternative where you could theoretically scoot by with lower hours for years and still make some good money (even if slightly less than you would make elsewhere).

Fourth, JD does beat market for some hardworking associates. My guess is that more people think ex ante that they'll fall into this category, especially given my next point.

Fifth, JD often times hires a good deal of scrappy non-T14 attorneys at the top of their class. I think JD recruits them harder than the other NYC firms, which are more focused on T14 and think the non-T14 students should be grateful for their offer.

Sixth, for mathematically illiterate law students, the idea of getting paid a higher salary without a bonus sounds attractive, especially if they don't realize they end up undercompensated in the end.

Seventh, for law students who know nothing of the world, the idea of NLG (no practice group commitment for 1 year) probably sounds pretty attractive. We can quibble about whether it's a good thing or not (just like CSM's system), but it's bound to catch the eye of at least a few law students.

Eight, this may be less true now as the Lathams and K&E's of the world continue to grow, but JD's massive footprint combined with the "one firm" policy is probably another selling point. They have work in literally every practice area imaginable in almost any city in the world. Compensation aside, I'd prefer JD to other shops like DLA, NRF, K&L, GT, etc. Maybe even MLB if I'm being honest. J&D is far better ranked than these firms, which is probably another selling point (again, quibble whether that matters).

Ninth, partnership prospects, etc. as others have noted.

Great post. You mentioned that "apart from a few relatively selective NYC firms, most other firms have hard hours requirements somewhere between 1900-2000" -- which firms are you referring to? (I am looking into post-clerkship NYC firms.)

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:35 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:23 am

Great post. You mentioned that "apart from a few relatively selective NYC firms, most other firms have hard hours requirements somewhere between 1900-2000" -- which firms are you referring to? (I am looking into post-clerkship NYC firms.)

Different poster. Patterson Belknap comes to mind. I cosign the above post about hours, with the caveat that it varies by group. JD M&A people still put in long hours; JD I&A may have the chillest job in all of law.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 04, 2022 6:54 pm

Not to hijack this thread, but does the overall consensus around here sound like - notwithstanding potential pay issues - Jones Day NY is a good and relatively "happy" place to work for? I often have a hard time getting opinions on this because so much of Jones Day discussion gets mired in the pay issue or in the potential politics of the firm. I'm genuinely curious about just QOL/employee satisfaction.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:05 pm

The daughter of the Tiger Mom who is an HLS 3L right now is going to Jones Day NY I think. I'm guessing that this does have something to do with a future conservative political career.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:05 pm

The daughter of the Tiger Mom who is an HLS 3L right now is going to Jones Day NY I think. I'm guessing that this does have something to do with a future conservative political career.